EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[anme]

Actually I had told you what I wanted way back up thread. And no it's not the only way forward. But I presume what you mean is that it I the best option going forward.

Of course I mean what YOU think should happen next! Why are leavers suddenly so shy with their opinions? Maybe you can repeat it - I guess I missed it in all the conspiracy theories about coast guard cooperation (which if you spend a moment to think about it you might realise is a very very very good idea, especially if you're worried about immigration).

 

[Mvann]

What we need is trade agreements worked out with European countries using the knowledge that we are becoming less reliant on Europe for exports, but still need to import a lot from there. We need to shape a free movement/ease of movement deal. I wouldn't want to completely stop free movment, but I do think that the whole unconditional no strings attached free movement needs re looking at. Especially when we are struggling with housing in this country. That policy was fine when the EEC was less countries than the EU is now.
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Of course I mean what YOU think should happen next! Why are leavers suddenly so shy with their opinions? Maybe you can repeat it - I guess I missed it in all the conspiracy theories about coast guard cooperation (which if you spend a moment to think about it you might realise is a very very very good idea, especially if you're worried about immigration).

If you didn't already know, the coastguards and border agencies seem to cooperate quite well without the need to have the EU Commision needing to add in a new agency. And the same with the armed forces and a whole list of other areas. The cooperation is already there so why does the Commision need to add to it.

 

[TheKnightWho]

If you didn't already know, the coastguards and border agencies seem to cooperate quite well without the need to have the EU Commision needing to add in a new agency. And the same with the armed forces and a whole list of other areas. The cooperation is already there so why does the Commision need to add to it.

That didn't happen during the refugee crisis. It exists precisely so that that mess doesn't happen, and the crisis got worse when it got temporarily defunded.

So no - just saying "they cooperate anyway" is not an answer, because it simply does not bear up to evidence.

 

[Mvann]

That didn't happen during the refugee crisis. It exists precisely so that that mess doesn't happen, and the crisis got worse when it got temporarily defunded.

So no - just saying "they cooperate anyway" is not an answer, because it simply does not bear up to evidence.

But then with the euro currency crisis, surely your argument would then be that other countries equivalent of the Bank of England should all be run through the ECB and that they should set monetary policy and all euro zone countries adhere strictly to said policy at all times.

 

[anme]

What we need is trade agreements worked out with European countries using the knowledge that we are becoming less reliant on Europe for exports, but still need to import a lot from there. We need to shape a free movement/ease of movement deal. I wouldn't want to completely stop free movment, but I do think that the whole unconditional no strings attached free movement needs re looking at. Especially when we are struggling with housing in this country. That policy was fine when the EEC was less countries than the EU is now.
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If you didn't already know, the coastguards and border agencies seem to cooperate quite well without the need to have the EU Commision needing to add in a new agency. And the same with the armed forces and a whole list of other areas. The cooperation is already there so why does the Commision need to add it it.

So to summarise - you want to leave the single market (despite the trade agreements underway with China, etc) and you want to end free movement, right? You're a "hard Brexiteer", correct? Please correct any of that that is wrong, and others, please comment.

I totally disagree with you. We must remain part of the single market and we must preserve free movement (which ALSO applies to us).

I would like you to tell us precisely what is wrong with current trade agreements - no vague statements, it's time for the leavers to explain *exactly* what they mean.

I'm not going to comment further on your coast guard fetish.
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BTW, you do realise that the UK already trades with China and the rest of the world outside Europe, right? Where do you think the computer/phone/tablet you're reading this on comes from?
What precisely do you want to change about the UK's trading arrangements with these countries? Will those countries also be interested in new arrangements?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester had already established links to Chinese capital investment for the large proposed Airport City Manchester development at Manchester Airport.

 

[Mvann]

So to summarise - you want to leave the single market (despite the trade agreements underway with China, etc) and you want to end free movement, right? You're a "hard Brexiteer", correct? Please correct any of that that is wrong, and others, please comment.

I totally disagree with you. We must remain part of the single market and we must preserve free movement (which ALSO applies to us).

I would like you to tell us precisely what is wrong with current trade agreements - no vague statements, it's time for the leavers to explain *exactly* what they mean.

I'm not going to comment further on your coast guard fetish.
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BTW, you do realise that the UK already trades with China and the rest of the world outside Europe, right? Where do you think the computer/phone/tablet you're reading this on comes from?
What precisely do you want to change about the UK's trading arrangements with these countries? Will those countries also be interested in new arrangements?

I didn't say end all free movement. I said that it needs looking at. As I said well up thread free movement is fine, but if there are more people coming here on a regular basis and not enough going into Europe from the uk, it's not sustainable.
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The problem is that certain countries outside the EU want to do more trade with us, but can't because of the EU trade agreements or lack of with those countries.
Leicester could do a roaring trade with India. If Leicester, southall, Birmingham etc wanted the uk to get better trade agreements in place, we are obliged to do it through the EU as it stands now.

 

[furnessvale]

The EU Army idea is basically a replacement for NATO on this side of the Atlantic (there will still be a NATO). It's sole purpose is to share resources and to act as a force against major super powers (Russia etc), as 27 Nation states being commanded from one HQ is more effective than each Country having their own agenda.
It also avoids the situation. where some states go "I'm Alright Jack", and sit it out. It gives the EU power to declare war where all 27 will be required to take part, but doesn't change the structure of each Nation states armed forces and they are still free to go about their normal commitments.

Probably the most disturbing thing I have read in this debate, but I am unsure whether it is meant to be a pro or anti EU statement.

 

[Mvann]

Probably the most disturbing thing I have read in this debate, but I am unsure whether it is meant to be a pro or anti EU statement.

True. I'd rather stay with NATO than have it replaced by the EU commission

 

[meridian2]

I would like you to tell us precisely what is wrong with current trade agreements - no vague statements, it's time for the leavers to explain *exactly* what they mean.

1. The trade agreements favour chief executives/chairmen rather than their workforce. Whatever gets agreed has to be abided by without so much as a by your leave.

2. The trade deals allow other European industries to be based here and have their goods exported at a much cheaper cost than if they were exported from their respective country. An example is Morris, now MINI, in Cowley, Oxford, whereby BMW have set up their industry so they can trade with agreements that are supposed to be for BRITISH industries.

3. The trade agreements shackle smaller industries with EU bureaucracy, such as the Common Fisheries Policy.

4. The trade agreements allow unlimited movement of migrant workers, rather than a set, targeted number per annum, which would give smaller industries better flexibility to recruit.

5. The trade agreements are structured with the same, centralised approach, so everything that's British has to be sanctioned by Brussels.

 

[anme]

I didn't say end all free movement. I said that it needs looking at. As I said well up thread free movement is fine, but if there are more people coming here on a regular basis and not enough going into Europe from the uk, it's not sustainable.
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The problem is that certain countries outside the EU want to do more trade with us, but can't because of the EU trade agreements or lack of with those countries.
Leicester could do a roaring trade with India. If Leicester, southall, Birmingham etc wanted the uk to get better trade agreements in place, we are obliged to do it through the EU as it stands now.

That is not answering the question at ALL!

You do realise that leaving the EU will make it much harder for British people to get jobs elsewhere, and also stop us exporting our pensioners? This will have a horrible effect on many British people and will ruin many lives.

Where is your evidence that, for example, Leicester's trade with India is held back by EU membership? What EXACTLY is the problem? You are aware that the UK already trades with India, right? And you do realise that Leicester still won't get the ability to make its own trade deals outside the EU, right?
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1. The trade agreements favour chief executives/chairmen rather than their workforce. Whatever gets agreed has to be abided by without so much as a by your leave.

That's the idea of an agreement. It has to be abided by. What else do you suggest? Please justify why trade agreements favour chief executives rather than their workforce.

2. The trade deals allow other European industries to be based here and have their goods exported at a much cheaper cost than if they were exported from their respective country. An example is Morris, now MINI, in Cowley, Oxford, whereby BMW have set up their industry so they can trade with agreements that are supposed to be for BRITISH industries.

Do you realise there is virtually no British-owned car industry? It all failed for being uncompetitive or was allowed to be bought by foreign companies.
BMW trade with exactly the same terms and conditions as British companies - that's what the single market is about. Again, what do you suggest is done differently? Vague moaning is not good enough. We need you (the leavers) to say precisely what you want.

3. The trade agreements shackle smaller industries with EU bureaucracy, such as the Common Fisheries Policy.

There needs to be some international agreements on Fisheries, as I'm sure you recognise. What do you think should be done differently?

4. The trade agreements allow unlimited movement of migrant workers, rather than a set, targeted number per annum, which would give smaller industries better flexibility to recruit.

How would reducing the number of migrants increase the flexibility of smaller industries to recruit? That makes no sense whatsoever.

5. The trade agreements are structured with the same, centralised approach, so everything that's British has to be sanctioned by Brussels.

Statements like "everything that's British has to be sanctioned by Brussels" are so vague as to be meaningless. And total nonsense. Again, what *precisely* do you suggest should actually be DIFFERENT to now?
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Brexit causes dramatic drop in UK economy, data suggests
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36864273

Key quote from Chris Williamson, chief economist at IHS Markit: "This is exactly what most economists were saying would happen"

Key quote from Michael Gove: "people in this country have had enough of experts”

Time for the leavers to formally apologise to the rest of us?

 

[furnessvale]

You do realise that leaving the EU will make it much harder for British people to get jobs elsewhere, and also stop us exporting our pensioners? This will have a horrible effect on many British people and will ruin many lives.

A pensioner living abroad is effectively a permanent holidaymaker, spending all their money, pension and accrued savings, in their chosen country.

If anything seriously goes wrong with their health, they are normally back to the UK on the first plane anyway.

I cannot see a strapped for cash country like Spain or Greece throwing out hundreds of thousands of holidaymakers.

 

[anme]

A pensioner living abroad is effectively a permanent holidaymaker, spending all their money, pension and accrued savings, in their chosen country.

If anything seriously goes wrong with their health, they are normally back to the UK on the first plane anyway.

I cannot see a strapped for cash country like Spain or Greece throwing out hundreds of thousands of holidaymakers.

I'm not arguing that they will be thrown out. I'm arguing that they will be much less likely to go in the first place if they lose their reciprocal rights to healthcare, index linked pensions, right to own property, etc.

So many British people seem utterly ignorant of the incredible rights they enjoy (for now) as EU citizens, and that they have voted to give up.

 

[AM9]

... I cannot see a strapped for cash country like Spain or Greece throwing out hundreds of thousands of holidaymakers.

I can't see a country that is strapped for qualified health professionals like the UK is, throwing out hundreds of thousands of European nationals. Well ... I can't see a government doing it but as far as a xenophobic rabble making racist threats goes, they will, and have already started spurred on by a slim majority in a national opinion poll.
Maybe the Spanish and Greek rabbles could do their bit towards claiming their countries back by demonising the UK pensioners living there.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not arguing that they will be thrown out. I'm arguing that they will be much less likely to go in the first place if they lose their reciprocal rights to healthcare, index linked pensions, right to own property, etc.

So many British people seem utterly ignorant of the incredible rights they enjoy (for now) as EU citizens, and that they have voted to give up.

Yes, this is about people currently in the UK now, and wanting to live elsewhere in Europe at a later date. There must be thousands if not millions of Brits intending to retire in, for example, France, Spain or Greece and have been planning their lives accordingly. I wouldn't be surprised if many Leave voters are among them and didn't realise that they may be ruining their own plans.

The debate has never been about Brits already abroad, or indeed EU citizens in the UK. It has always been assumed, by both sides, that they would be able to stay where they are. However, the UK government has up to now failed to guarantee that will be the case. That has caused friends in the UK with just EU passports a lot of distress.

 

[anme]

I can't see a country that is strapped for qualified health professionals like the UK is, throwing out hundreds of thousands of European nationals. Well ... I can't see a government doing it but as far as a xenophobic rabble making racist threats goes, they will, and have already started spurred on by a slim majority in a national opinion poll.
Maybe the Spanish and Greek rabbles could do their bit towards claiming their countries back by demonising the UK pensioners living there.

Ironically the leave vote probably will reduce immigration. It has seriously damaged the UK's reputation abroad, especially amongst skilled professionals (who tend to be strongly pro-European, as we saw in the referendum); it has seriously damaged the British economy; it has encouraged some nasty racist incidents which are well covered by foreign media; it has reduced the value of the pound (making salaries in the UK less competitive); and of course it means that EU citizens coming to the UK have no security that they can stay and build a life here - this is not just about not being deported, but about owning property, getting a mortgage, rights to eduction, benefits and pensions, not being thrown out if they lose their job, etc - all of which are guaranteed to EU citizens now but may not be in the UK outside the EU.

 

[Gutfright]

The debate has never been about Brits already abroad, or indeed EU citizens in the UK. It has always been assumed, by both sides, that they would be able to stay where they are. However, the UK government has up to now failed to guarantee that will be the case. That has caused friends in the UK with just EU passports a lot of distress.

Distress which, I'm sad to say, a small but highly vocal minority of remain voters seem only too happy to whip up. Unfortunately, there are people on the remain side who seem to take delight in upsetting people with dire predictions of doom and gloom. This goes beyond saltiness at not getting their own way, beyond pessimism and actually borders on a sadistic enjoyment of the anguish their prophecies cause people.

Just look at the relish with which some voices on this thread have rushed to judgement and declared Brexit a terrible failure which will lead to untold misery. It's almost as though they get off on causing other people dismay.

I sometimes think certain people here actively want Britain to fail, for there to be unprecedented unhappiness and suffering in this country, just so they can say I told you so.

 

[Mvann]

And I've seen no guarentees from the EU that Brits in Europe can stay either. But as the EU Commision won't allow any discussions until article 50 has been started what would you expect.

 

[radamfi]

All it would take is for the UK to announce now that they will sign up to the single market and its associated rules in any negotiation. That would remove uncertainty for citizens and would reassure the business community.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All it would take is for the UK to announce now that they will sign up to the single market and its associated rules in any negotiation. That would remove uncertainty for citizens and would reassure the business community.

I am sure that particular aspect is not at the top of Governmental priorities at this point in time...or have you heard news to the opposite?

 

[anme]

Distress which, I'm sad to say, a small but highly vocal minority of remain voters seem only too happy to whip up. Unfortunately, there are people on the remain side who seem to take delight in upsetting people with dire predictions of doom and gloom. This goes beyond saltiness at not getting their own way, beyond pessimism and actually borders on a sadistic enjoyment of the anguish their prophecies cause people.

Just look at the relish with which some voices on this thread have rushed to judgement and declared Brexit a terrible failure which will lead to untold misery. It's almost as though they get off on causing other people dismay.

I sometimes think certain people here actively want Britain to fail, for there to be unprecedented unhappiness and suffering in this country, just so they can say I told you so.

A leaver lecturing on dire predictions of doom and gloom. Do you not remember the horrible lies and deceptions of the leave campaign?

But you're totally missing the point. There is still a lot to play for. As I've told you many many times already, the UK could still remain in the EEA and we could retain many of the benefits of EU membership. It's not nearly as good as being in the EU (thanks for thinking it through, leave voters), but it's much better than isolation.

Therefore, it's now *critical* that we take an honest look at our position. And our position is very bad. Did you not see the figures from today?
Brexit causes dramatic drop in UK economy, data suggests
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36864273

I can't resist reposting a couple of quotes, which really speak for themselves.
Key quote from Chris Williamson, chief economist at IHS Markit: "This is exactly what most economists were saying would happen"
Key quote from Michael Gove: "people in this country have had enough of experts”

Leave voters can continue to believe Michael Gove's fairy stories if they like, but the grown ups now need to clear up this mess.

 

[dgl]

The problem is most of the time experts have differing opinions and that muddies the water.

The difference with the referendum was that all the experts were saying the same thing.

The 2 people that I know of that did support brexit, the head of Bourne leisure and James Dyson, was that one would make a killing if people could not afford to go abroad on holiday and the other said brexit would save British jobs makes all his products oversees!

Sent from my Lumia 625 using Tapatalk

 

[Mvann]

http://www.democraticaudit.com/?p=23581

Why we voted leave.

 

[AlterEgo]

http://www.democraticaudit.com/?p=23581

Why we voted leave.

A thoughtful article. For those who don't want to read the full thing, here is a good passage:

Britons’ comparatively less European self-identity and lower trust in the EU may have come about for the following reasons. First, Britain is the only allied European power not to have been occupied during the Second World War. Second, Britain has its own common law legal system, which contrasts with the civil law system of continental Europe. Third, because Britain has an established church, most British Christians have historically owed their allegiance to a national institution headed by the monarch, rather than to an international institution headed by the Pope. Fourth, Britain is an island whose surrounding waters have partially isolated it from cultural developments on the continent.

 

[anme]

http://www.democraticaudit.com/?p=23581

Why we voted leave.

Are the British really so stupid? And I'm sorry so say that staggeringly you STILL haven't articulated any alternative ideas!

 

[AlterEgo]

Are the British really so stupid? And I'm sorry so say that staggeringly you STILL haven't articulated any alternative ideas!

As a remainer I'm as frustrated as you are, but to call voters stupid probably highlights some of the issues with the Remain campaign.

 

[miami]

Britons’ comparatively less European self-identity and lower trust in the EU may have come about for the following reasons. First, Britain is the only allied European power not to have been occupied during the Second World War.

And Spain. And Portugal. And Germany come to that matter (not occupied until the war was over)

In any case I wasn't alive then, neither were my parents. Heck my only living grandparent wasn't even a teenager.

Second, Britain has its own common law legal system, which contrasts with the civil law system of continental Europe.

Very unlikely the average Brit could tell the difference.

Third, because Britain has an established church, most British Christians have historically owed their allegiance to a national institution headed by the monarch, rather than to an international institution headed by the Pope

Wasn't there some issue with Lutherians and the pope? Either case, the number of churchgoers in the UK is somewhere in the 10% range.

Fourth, Britain is an island whose surrounding waters have partially isolated it from cultural developments on the continent.[/i]

Specifics? How has Ireland or Finland been unaffected, or Cyprus, or Malta? Is a 25 mile straight between Dover and Calais really that different than 8 mile Oresund crossing?

 

[Mvann]

If you didn't realise, Spain was having a civil war at the time, and Germany started ww2

 

[anme]

As a remainer I'm as frustrated as you are, but to call voters stupid probably highlights some of the issues with the Remain campaign.

I'm sorry, but to vote leave based on some vague nonsense about identity coupled to some well known lies about what the EU actually does, and with no plan for any alternative, IS stupid.

What leave voters really really need to do now is tell us what plan they had in mind when they voted. They have to take responsibility for this mess.

 

[Mvann]

You mean like the EU taking responsibility for the problems in Italy and Portugal due to EU policy on the euro?