EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[najaB]

And that is fine. Gut instinct and ideas about national identity among other things are perfectly valid reasons to cast a vote, and each person's vote is as good as another's.

Yes, of course it's fine. The problem I have is with people who don't admit that that is the reason why they chose to vote the way that they did. Instead they talk about how bad the EU is for the UK and how much harm it has done to us, while being unable to name an actual harm.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, of course it's fine. The problem I have is with people who don't admit that that is the reason why they chose to vote the way that they did. Instead they talk about how bad the EU is for the UK and how much harm it has done to us, while being unable to name an actual harm.

The general problem prior to the referendum was that people who said they wanted less immigration and a more defined and sovereign nation state (as opposed to free movement and being subject to the EU and the whims of representatives elected from places utterly different to Britain) were derided as racists, xenophobes and thickies.

This trend has not abated much with the referendum result.

It is no surprise that you will continue to find people who are reticent to air their unfiltered and perfectly acceptable views.

 

[najaB]

It is no surprise that you will continue to find people who are reticent to air their unfiltered and perfectly acceptable views.

Which is unfortunate because, had they had that discussion, perhaps they would have learned that the UK has the power to control migration (that we have decided not to use), as well as the fact that migrants contribute more to the economy than they take out, and how the EU works in that the UK's elected MEPs were very effective at setting the rules rather than having them set for us.

 

[krus_aragon]

The various treaties created the EU and stripped our sovereignty. I prefer our laws to be made by MPs in Westminster and not by MEPs from 27 other countries based in Brussels, that's enough for me to despise the EU and it's why I voted to leave.

To give a slightly flippant comparison:

"The myriad laws that were enacted in the 1530s and 1540s took us ever deeper into union with England, without any reference to the people as to whether we agreed with them. These laws created by England stripped our sovereignty. I prefer our laws to be made in Wales and not by MPs from 610 other constituencies based in Westminster, that's enough for me to despise the UK and it's why I'll be voting for independence as soon as I get the chance!"

 

[krus_aragon]

What even is this subjective, constantly shifting, empty word known as sovereignty?

Sovereignty - what the Queen has with her biscuits
(Oops, this isn't the Uxbridge English Dictionary thread!)

 

[Peter Kelford]

The various treaties created the EU and stripped our sovereignty. I prefer our laws to be made by MPs in Westminster and not by MEPs from 27 other countries based in Brussels, that's enough for me to despise the EU and it's why I voted to leave.

MPs in Westminster selected to stand by cliques, elected into gerrymandered constituencies where the views of 16 000 may be completely ignored in favour of the views of 16 001. This is less democratic than proportionally electing 70-odd representatives. Interestingly, the people who complain about EU dictatorship are the parties which gain their sole source of credibility from the EU.

What even is this subjective, constantly shifting, empty word known as sovereignty?

Sovereignty is the power to make one's own laws and to self-governance. Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist in this modern world. It is more sovereign to participate in a multilateral government (which has considerable leverage on the world stage) that is democratically elected, where we send our own representatives and where we play a role in appointing ministers, as opposed to being caught in between the world's largest, 2nd largest and 3rd largest economies who all want to push their agenda on us.

Along with Amsterdam they created the modern EU, which has become a political union that I despise. And within a few days we will have left, so as far as I am concerned it's job done.

I note that your location is the Isle of Dogs. Is that the direction you intend for the UK (read: England) to be heading down? (Pun intended).

Are we still expecting Leave voters to answer these sorts of questions? Gut instinct and national identity were primary drivers for those to vote to leave the EU. Tangible, personally-affecting reasons were - still are - hard to come by.

Waving actual proof of social or economic harm in the faces of Leave voters makes little difference. The deed is done and we all have to live with the resulting mess.

Ironically, leavers are generally older, fed by a sense of nostalgia and have already made their money and are either towards the end of their professional lives and on a steady income that they're unlikely to lose or retired and on a pension that they won't lose. Thus, the worst of the economic damage will not affect them.

And the good news tonight is that the Lords have caved in and passed the Brexit bill.

The way this has been phrased sounds very alarming - i.e. that a part of our legislature is seen as a mere obstacle that should 'cave in' and when it does, one rejoices.

Incredible as it may seem, people travelled between the UK and mainland Europe before the EU was formed. They continue to travel between the UK and non-EU countries. It can be done. The other matters I'll leave to the UK government to negotiate. If they continue, fine, if not it's hardly the end of the world and the electorate will have the opportunity to dismiss those who fail to enact their wishes (a luxury they do not have with the EU).

But surely one realises that globalisation only took place after we joined the EC. The modern world can no longer run on trust that a traveller isn't travelling illegally, and often very lax controls.

It's an ideological thing which you seem unable to grasp. I am resolutely against being part of a political entity called the United States of Europe, if the rest of Western Europe is happy with that so be it, but thankfully we will now go our own way.

And perhaps that out of principle we should stay away from doing business with the USA as that is also an 'anti-democratic, dictatorial, superstate'. There is nothing sinister about obtaining a collective identity. It doesn't erode the individual identity.

Those jobs will not reappear in the UK.

Admittedly, some low-skilled jobs that Brits don't want to do will appear.

the EU army

An EU army combining resources from the whole EU will provide a real and powerful force should any military conflict break out, and would act as an excellent deterrent.

*Yes, I was on the leave side until ~2017.

So in a 2nd referendum, you would vote to remain. The margin was so tight in the first referendum that no-one can actually claim victory.

 

[nidave]

Well at least we won't be in the middle of a trade war with the USA when we leave and start to negotiate with them... Wait what's this. ..

Boris Johnson has been warned that his plan to introduce a digital tax on Google, Amazon and other big technology companies will be met with trade sanctions from President Trump.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...m?shareToken=a8d164ee5116ea303c5f778efbb38e25

 

[AM9]

Well at least we won't be in the middle of a trade war with the USA when we leave and start to negotiate with them... Wait what's this. ..
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...m?shareToken=a8d164ee5116ea303c5f778efbb38e25

So our illusion of sovereignty is so empowering where it really matters? We'll just have to wait until the EU uses real power to reign in US bullying. It's a shame that the UK is only hanging onto the EU's coattails when it has been a major player in it's actions.

 

[edwin_m]

This sort of identity politics approach to Brexit is more like a religion - those who support it do so out of faith, in the absence of any evidence, and are willing to forgo material advantage in the name of their belief.

Religion is generally OK provided it doesn't inflict itself on non-believers. But that's patently not the case here, and when religion gets mixed up in politics the result is usually not good.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's most unlikely that Brexit will cost many people their jobs or undermine economic stability. In fact, if the last three years is anything to go by, the reverse may well be true. There will be a realignment of the economy in the coming years that will see it veer away from the emphasis on trade with a declining, over-regulated, protectionist Europe and instead move towards that with the wider world (where most of the growth is likely to be seen). The UK will survive and thrive despite the naysayers' best efforts.

Or it other words, "it'll be reet" as some might say in my part of the world. Sadly pinning your hopes on things just going our way without any clear strategy on how we actually get there isn't going to cut it. That's not how the 21st century global economy works. We are actually going to have to put a lot of effort in just to keep anything like a status quo, let alone actually benefit from Brexit. Figures above have already demonstrated the effect of our just preparing to leave, as a nation we have literally dozens of new trade deals to broker, and these can take years to do. In the meantime we are going to be in something of a WTO limbo-land if we cannot negotiate some kind of deal with the EU to keep our current terms with the 40+ trade deals they current have.

So we are handing control over to Boris Johnson instead of the EU. Sounds like a great plan. Our cup shall overfloweth. Ha ha. It's like Liverpool selling Fernando Torres and using the money to buy Andy Carroll. Alright it's not really but you get my meaning. Ha ha. Maybe not.

I almost spat my coffee all over my screen reading this, a brilliant analogy...

 

[SteveP29]

The various treaties created the EU and stripped our sovereignty. I prefer our laws to be made by MPs in Westminster and not by MEPs from 27 other countries based in Brussels, that's enough for me to despise the EU and it's why I voted to leave.

As proven by the judgement in the Gina Miller case, WE ALWAYS HAD SOVREIGNTY.
Err, we also had a veto, remember that?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The general problem prior to the referendum was that people who said they wanted less immigration...were derided as racists, xenophobes and thickies.

That's because most of them are racist, xenophobic, stupid, or a combination of all three.

I know we're supposed to pussyfoot around their "legitimate concerns", but sorry. No. Brexitists are predominantly xenophobic, racist, and really rather thick.

The most stridently Brexity places have little or no immigration. You won't see many Poles or Muslims in Bishop Auckland or Mansfield. So no, it's not a "legitimate concern".

I lost, I was outvoted. So it goes. But I've never spoken to a Brexitist who isn't a moron or, at the very least, stratospherically ill-informed.

 

[SteveP29]

Along with Amsterdam they created the modern EU, which has become a political union that I despise. And within a few days we will have left, so as far as I am concerned it's job done.

So what about Maastrict and Amsterdam affected you so much that you couldn't work, couldn't earn, couldn't pursue leisure interests, made you poorer and was life changing to you?

I didn't say there is any physical, demonstrable harm to me. That's not the reason I voted to leave.

Oh, I'm alright jack, screw the rest of you, as long as I get what I want eh?

Instead of carping on about how terrible it's all going to be, individuals and businesses would do better to get on and make whatever arrangements the have to in order to carry on. Nothing stays the same forever.

Our own bloody Chancellor can't give any reassurance as to what way the UK will have a relationship with the EU, so how the bloody hell are businesses and people supposed to bloody make ANY kind of arrangements?

There is usually more than one way at looking at the same 'proof'. 25% & 40% are big percentages of London's revenues and their loss would be a blow. But not necessarily a fatal one.

OK, you take yourself a 40% pay cut at work, but keep paying 100% mortgage/ rent, keep paying 100% of your transport cost, 100% of your food, 100% of your Council Tax and utilities.
Lets see how far you get before you're on your knees.

And then of course there's the EU army, which we were told was "a dangerous fantasy", but will soon be a reality.

Evidence, links please.

 

[Esker-pades]

So in a 2nd referendum, you would vote to remain. The margin was so tight in the first referendum that no-one can actually claim victory.

Indeed.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Indeed.

It certainly dispels the myth that those that want a 2nd referendum are not made up of Eurofederalist anti-democrats.

 

[Enthusiast]

That's because most of them are racist, xenophobic, stupid, or a combination of all three.
Brexitists are predominantly xenophobic, racist, and really rather thick.

But I've never spoken to a Brexitist who isn't a moron or, at the very least, stratospherically ill-informed.

You should get out more. You can have a chat with me if you like. If not try one of the many higher profile Leavers. Have a chat with, say, Tim Martin. He's the boss of Wetherspoons. He built that chain from a single pub to round about a thousand outlets, largely by his own endeavours. He read Law at the University of Nottingham and qualified as a barrister. I don't think he could be seen as "rather thick" by any measure. He spent most of his early life in New Zealand. He employs the best people he can find and they are of all races and nationalities. I think he'd be rather upset to be branded as racist. As indeed would I. My nephew would feel similarly insulted. He has a first in Physics from Cambridge and is married to a mixed race lady with similar qualifications. Both of them voted to leave. Your circle of acquaintances is clearly not as diverse as it might be.

..perhaps they would have learned that the UK has the power to control migration (that we have decided not to use),

You're obviously referring to EU Directive 2004/38. Whilst this provides for the UK to expel citizens of other EU countries if, after being here for three months, they do not meet the "self sufficiency" criteria, it does not provide for the UK to deny them entry in the first place (unless they have been previously expelled on the grounds of public policy or security). This is hardly "the power to control immigration". It is the power to spend time and money monitoring, tracing and expelling people (possibly, after the interminable court processes provided for in the directive have been exhausted) only after it as become apparent that they cannot support themselves. It's unsurprising that the UK has elected not to spend too much time and money taking advantage of this "power".

It [an EU Army] will only happen if every country in the EU votes for it.

That's not correct. The Lisbon Treaty removed some 45 areas of "competence" from the list that required unanimity when voting. Among these were a Common Defence Policy and Civil protection. If two thirds of the Council of Ministers vote for a measure associated with the EU's defence policy it will succeed.

Anybody with any doubt about the EU's ambitions to establish itself as a single nation state should consider this: the EU already has its own flag, its own anthem, its own government and its own currency; it has abolished virtually all of its internal borders; it has its own Central Bank; it has its own Supreme Court whose decisions are binding on all members; although it has no voting rights it has "advanced observer" rights at the UN and can speak in certain categories of debate; it has diplomatic delegations in over 120 countries which the EU encourages to be recognised as full diplomatic missions.

Every revision of governance, every reform, every new treaty moves the EU more towards a Federal State. Of course there may be some people perfectly happy with that (if indeed they were told it was the ultimate aim). But there were 17.4m in the UK who obviously were not and to describe them as "predominantly xenophobic, racist, and really rather thick" is somewhat beyond the pale.

 

[TrafficEng]

OK, you take yourself a 40% pay cut at work, but keep paying 100% mortgage/ rent, keep paying 100% of your transport cost, 100% of your food, 100% of your Council Tax and utilities.
Lets see how far you get before you're on your knees.

False analogy.

 

[KashmireHawker]

The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 is now a law of the United Kingdom, with Royal Assent having been signified.

 

[najaB]

The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 is now a law of the United Kingdom, with Royal Assent having been signified.

Good news, turkeys, the farmer has just bought a lot of parsnips and potatoes....

 

[Peter Kelford]

You should get out more. You can have a chat with me if you like. If not try one of the many higher profile Leavers. Have a chat with, say, Tim Martin. He's the boss of Wetherspoons. He built that chain from a single pub to round about a thousand outlets, largely by his own endeavours. He read Law at the University of Nottingham and qualified as a barrister. I don't think he could be seen as "rather thick" by any measure. He spent most of his early life in New Zealand. He employs the best people he can find and they are of all races and nationalities. I think he'd be rather upset to be branded as racist. As indeed would I. My nephew would feel similarly insulted. He has a first in Physics from Cambridge and is married to a mixed race lady with similar qualifications. Both of them voted to leave. Your circle of acquaintances is clearly not as diverse as it might be.

The very fact that you are up here making reasoned (whether they are reasonable is up for debate) arguments with remainers who respond similarly show that you do not fit in the rank and file leaver. No attempt is being made to say that every brexiteer is either unintelligent, racist and/or nostalgic, just that the masses that make up the 'numbers game' that is elections and referendums are.

 

[nedchester]

You should get out more. You can have a chat with me if you like. If not try one of the many higher profile Leavers. Have a chat with, say, Tim Martin. He's the boss of Wetherspoons. He built that chain from a single pub to round about a thousand outlets, largely by his own endeavours. He read Law at the University of Nottingham and qualified as a barrister. I don't think he could be seen as "rather thick" by any measure. He spent most of his early life in New Zealand. He employs the best people he can find and they are of all races and nationalities. I think he'd be rather upset to be branded as racist. As indeed would I. My nephew would feel similarly insulted. He has a first in Physics from Cambridge and is married to a mixed race lady with similar qualifications. Both of them voted to leave. Your circle of acquaintances is clearly not as diverse as it might be.

You're obviously referring to EU Directive 2004/38. Whilst this provides for the UK to expel citizens of other EU countries if, after being here for three months, they do not meet the "self sufficiency" criteria, it does not provide for the UK to deny them entry in the first place (unless they have been previously expelled on the grounds of public policy or security). This is hardly "the power to control immigration". It is the power to spend time and money monitoring, tracing and expelling people (possibly, after the interminable court processes provided for in the directive have been exhausted) only after it as become apparent that they cannot support themselves. It's unsurprising that the UK has elected not to spend too much time and money taking advantage of this "power".

That's not correct. The Lisbon Treaty removed some 45 areas of "competence" from the list that required unanimity when voting. Among these were a Common Defence Policy and Civil protection. If two thirds of the Council of Ministers vote for a measure associated with the EU's defence policy it will succeed.

Anybody with any doubt about the EU's ambitions to establish itself as a single nation state should consider this: the EU already has its own flag, its own anthem, its own government and its own currency; it has abolished virtually all of its internal borders; it has its own Central Bank; it has its own Supreme Court whose decisions are binding on all members; although it has no voting rights it has "advanced observer" rights at the UN and can speak in certain categories of debate; it has diplomatic delegations in over 120 countries which the EU encourages to be recognised as full diplomatic missions.

Every revision of governance, every reform, every new treaty moves the EU more towards a Federal State. Of course there may be some people perfectly happy with that (if indeed they were told it was the ultimate aim). But there were 17.4m in the UK who obviously were not and to describe them as "predominantly xenophobic, racist, and really rather thick" is somewhat beyond the pale.

All racists and xenophobes are supporters of Brexit but not all supporters of Brexit are racists and xenophobes.

As for Tim Martin he may well have certain qualifications but that doesn't make him a purveyor of common sense. Mind you his business might do quite well after Brexit due to the larger numbers of unemployed drinking in his scummy establishments looking for a cheap way to get drunk. As for employing the best people.....now that really is a joke.

 

[AlterEgo]

The very fact that you are up here making reasoned (whether they are reasonable is up for debate) arguments with remainers who respond similarly show that you do not fit in the rank and file leaver. No attempt is being made to say that every brexiteer is either unintelligent, racist and/or nostalgic, just that the masses that make up the 'numbers game' that is elections and referendums are.

So lovely to see someone move the argument from “all leavers are racist” to just “only most of them are”.

I’m glad you lost and I’m glad many of the Remainers on here are unhappy. You deserve to be.

I don’t intend on contributing to this area of the forum any longer. Enjoy your mud slinging, chaps.

 

[najaB]

I’m glad you lost and I’m glad many of the Remainers on here are unhappy. You deserve to be.

Nobody deserves to be unhappy.

 

[Struner]

Indeed.

 

[ComUtoR]

Nobody deserves to be called a racist or a xenophobe purely because they have a different opinion. Remain lost, the Withdrawal Bill has Royal assent, lets all work together to try and get the best deal possible. The constant fighting has not done this country any good.

 

[Doppelganger]

Remain lost, the Withdrawal Bill has Royal assent, lets all work together to try and get the best deal possible. The constant fighting has not done this country any good.

No, you won it, you own it.

 

[ComUtoR]

No, you won it, you own it.

Who is 'you'

The country is leaving. There is no changing that now. Both sides can come together to keep the country together and get the best or the infighting can continue and then the country really is up the creek.

Both sides need to be part of constructing any deal going forward or there will be a horrible shift in one direction.

 

[nlogax]

No, you won it, you own it.

Tell us how that is even remotely feasible or workable. Clue; it isn't.

Whatever happens now is our collective problem. Get over it.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm not "coming together". I will continue to fight to restore the best of what we once had. Over time, the older Brexiteers will die, the younger pro-Europeans will become the majority and we can start the slow process of re-building all the bridges that we've burned.

Asking the country to come together is much like your neighbour taking a massive dump on your lawn and then asking you to help clean up the mess. Not doing that.

 

[TrafficEng]

Over time, the older Brexiteers will die, the younger pro-Europeans will become the majority and we can start the slow process of re-building all the bridges that we've burned.

No. More likely the younger pro-Europeans will discover Brexit didn't turn out to be the total apocalypse it was predicted to be (e.g. no WWIII), will feel lied to and misled by the establishment Remainers, and as usual will gradually move their political views towards the right as they get older.

Thus replenishing the stock of "older Brexiteers".

Meanwhile a new cohort of young people will emerge who have never experienced life under EU membership and will grow up wondering what all the fuss was about.