Eureka - East Coast t/t Consultation

[brompton rail]

East Coast have placed the current proposals for the "Clockface" May 2011 timetable on their website and are asking for responses.
http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/travel-information/Eureka/

Living in Doncaster I am pleased with the half hourly KX - DON - LDS service and the 2 hourly KX - DON - YRK service is OK, though through services to Scotland are less good. Particularly poor is the late afternoon service southbound with the last service at 17:00 ex EDB. the 2 later services from EDB, 17:31 and 18:30 are fast between YRK and P'boro or Stevenage. A connection out of the 18:30 ex EDB means a 44 minute wait at NCL.

It seems that XC have got some of what they wanted regarding Reading - Newcastle services. Every other service will go via Leeds instead of Doncaster. The reduction in services from Doncaster northwards is annoying but more serious is that Doncaster to Birmingham is not only every 2 hours. Changing at Sheffield on the alternate hours means a 15 minute longer journey southbound and an 25 minute longer northbound trip. So in 3 years we have gone from journey time Doncaster to Bristol on through trains of about 3h 15 mins to a journey that will involve a change at Sheffield that takes nearer 3h 45 mins. Progress?!

East Coast want your views.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Thanks for that, I have registered a complaint about the loss of direct services between Leeds & Newark

 

[tbtc]

Impossible to serve every niche market (e.g. there's probably some people who want to go from Retford to Northallerton or Dunbar to Stevenage), but looks a positive thing overall.

Clockface times have improved passenger numbers on the WCML and elsewhere, yet the ECML has retained some fairly "random" stopping patterns at intermediate stations (relatively regular from London to Leeds/ York/ Edinburgh, but quite haphazard for stations inbetween)

 

[thefab444]

Whilst I welcome the hourly fast services to York, there doesn't seem to be any increase of services beyond Leeds to Bradford etc., which I thought was supposed to happen?

 

[philjo]

Try going to York or anywhere further north from Stevenage. there is an 06:35 northbound from Stevenage to York & beyond, but nothing else.
at the moment, catching the 07:19 train & changing at Darlington allows a fast journey with good connections to Whitby. Also gives easy access to Newcastle for business trips etc.

at the moment, between 7 & 8am the northbound departures are:

07:19 Glasgow
07:29 Leeds
07:44 Hull (Hull trains)
07:50 Newcastle
07:56 Leeds (non-stop to Wakefield westgate)

all this is replaced by 07:55 to Leeds

There is a now an hourly train to Leeds, but you cannot connect from it into anything else - at Doncaster you miss the Newcastle/Edinburgh train by 4 minutes, meaning a 56-minute wait, & the Newcastle service does not stop at Grantham.

you could go via Leeds (or via Kings Cross) to York but then probably can't get the same advance fares as at present , & the journey would be much longer.

FCC services to Peterborough tend to arrive only a few minutes before the East coast dearture, so it cannot be relied on as a connectio, so would have t get the on 30 minutes earlier - so it would take almost 90 minutes to get to Peterborough from Stevenage for onward connection when you currently do it in 25 minutes on a direct East coast service.

At the very least, the 2-hourly York or Lincoln stoppers (or both) should call at Stevenage to provide connections plus a direct fast service to Peterborough & Newark.

I did notice that several Hull Trains southbound services are scheduled to stop at Stevenage - but nothing northbound - maybe this is an error? At the moment, there are 2 morning northbound services calling.
Perhaps if east coast cannot provide a regular service to York then we will need to lobby Grand Central do do it instead!

 

[jamesontheroad]

It appears to me to be a very London-centric timetable, which is hardly a surprise. If you want to go to or from London, then it's an improvement. If you want to go between two cities outside London, then it's not; especially in our case (regular GLC - PBO travellers) with just 2 trains a day between Glasgow and King's Cross and *****-box Voyagers replacing most trains into GLC.

Extending XC trains from Edinburgh to Glasgow is a poor compromise. Fine: Glasgow will maintain direct services to Newcastle, York and Doncaster and 'only' the people who want to go to Peterborough and East Anglia will endure an extra connection. But beyond there, journey times to stations south of Donny would be quicker via the WCML.

Harumph. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm ****ed off that the only way to get clockface service on the ECML seems to be by cutting most trains into GLC...

 

[tbtc]

As discussed on other threads, the 225 service to Glasgow is a waste of a long train that could be better used elsewhere. A Voyager could do it, with plenty seats to spare.

Glasgow to Peterborough is a loss, but that market is probably only a fraction of some of the links that are beefed up with the simplified timetable

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Sorry for the obvious question, but what is a 'clockface' timetable?

 

[tbtc]

Sorry for the obvious question, but what is a 'clockface' timetable?

The same services at the same time every hour, so that passengers know that the train from (say) Newark to Grantham will be at ten minutes past each hour. Keeps things simpler, makes the timetable more predictable - people are more likely to travel if they don't need to consult a timetable (and can just rely on knowing 'ten past each hour").

This is similar to what Cross Country, Virgin (West Coast) and other have done.

The alternative is like on the ECML at the moment where intermediate stopping patterns are fairly random, meaning two stations might have a couple of trains between them in half an hour then nothing for a couple of hours.

The downside of clockface timetables is that you lose a lot of "one a day" links (like Dunbar to Stevenage) - this was a problem on Cross Country as they were complaints about the loss of (for example) Brighton to Edinburgh or Aberdeen to Bournemouth

 

[daikilo]

The same services at the same time every hour, so that passengers know that the train from (say) Newark to Grantham will be at ten minutes past each hour. Keeps things simpler, makes the timetable more predictable - people are more likely to travel if they don't need to consult a timetable (and can just rely on knowing 'ten past each hour").

This is similar to what Cross Country, Virgin (West Coast) and other have done.

The alternative is like on the ECML at the moment where intermediate stopping patterns are fairly random, meaning two stations might have a couple of trains between them in half an hour then nothing for a couple of hours.

The downside of clockface timetables is that you lose a lot of "one a day" links (like Dunbar to Stevenage) - this was a problem on Cross Country as they were complaints about the loss of (for example) Brighton to Edinburgh or Aberdeen to Bournemouth

If the incumbent principal TOC decides to cease service to certain station pairs in their previous timetable, can other including open access operators step in with priority to maintaining service?

 

[tbtc]

If the incumbent principal TOC decides to cease service to certain station pairs in their previous timetable, can other including open access operators step in with priority to maintaining service?

Theoretically there's nothing stopping an open access operator submitting a bid for any service, unless a TOC's 's franchise has a "restriction of competition" on it. Hull Trains didn't offer a service between any stations that weren't already linked (albeit by just a one a day GNER service).

Whether it is allowed paths is another story.

 

[Failed Unit]

Still needs some tweaking, unless they are going to relax some of the minimum interchange times. For example arriving at York at x.53 from Scotland but the connection is at x.00 (only 7 minutes when 8 is needed).

Darlington passengers won't be happy that the 1700 no longer stops so they only have 1 train per hour in the peak.

From a totally selfish point of view they have killed off the Grimsby - Newark line, I really hope that this is recast as it is no longer any use to man or beast! They should have either made it so it connects with the new Lincoln - London service or moved done something to keep Grimsby - Newark line connected together (or moved the direct train to Nottingham). I know there is a lot of freight on the line but I am sure something could have been done.

Grimsby depart 0920 arrive Lincoln 1014 depart 1015 and onwards to Newark arriving 1040 (as proposed) surely it isn't impossible to move that back by 8 minutes?

Going the otherway 1055 Newark arrive at Lincoln at 1120 depart at 1123 arriving at Grimsby at 1221 (about the same path as now but the opposite hour)

It would be hanging around Grimsby for an hour to leave again at 1320 but would take 2 units as it does now.

I don't think the diagramming will work of the proposed Grimsby - Lincoln service anyway.

0928 will arrive at Lincoln at 1022 and depart at 1023 to go back again (unless the set from Nottingham is used instead)

Shame the 0720 didn't start back at Grimsby like was originally planned and took the place of the EMT service.

 

[daikilo]

Theoretically there's nothing stopping an open access operator submitting a bid for any service, unless a TOC's 's franchise has a "restriction of competition" on it. Hull Trains didn't offer a service between any stations that weren't already linked (albeit by just a one a day GNER service).

Whether it is allowed paths is another story.

I doubt local elected members would consider one service per day on a given station pair (at e.g. 0605) as an adequate service in current times.

As I understand, paths are to be allocated per station-pair needs and not per the lead TOC desire to operate under 2-greens.

Also, as I understand, Network Rail is supposed to listen to traffic needs and adapt its track and signalling offer accordingly, in due course.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thanks for that, I have registered a complaint about the loss of direct services between Leeds & Newark

Impossible to serve every niche market (e.g. there's probably some people who want to go from Retford to Northallerton or Dunbar to Stevenage), but looks a positive thing overall.

Clockface times have improved passenger numbers on the WCML and elsewhere, yet the ECML has retained some fairly "random" stopping patterns at intermediate stations (relatively regular from London to Leeds/ York/ Edinburgh, but quite haphazard for stations inbetween)

I am not sure if you are refering to Leeds - Newark as a Niche market or just a general quote which happens to be below that comment. Leeds - Newark isn't really a niche market when you look at the passenger flows. I don't know how it works pathing wise but as this is an every other hour clockface timetable maybe the solution do the follow.

1030 (stops Newark)
1035 (stops Grantham)
1130 (stops Grantham)
1135 (stops Newark)

I do see a conflict with this, would the 1135 catch up with the 1130? I suspect that the 1130 stopping at Peterborough and Newark and the 1135 stopping at Stevenage and Grantham is to keep the two trains apart.

 

[gordonthemoron]

the doncaster change works some of the time, but falls apart in the evening. Also, I tend to do it in the opposite direction

 

[Daimler]

I'm disappointed to see how poor the proposals for Stevenage are. In my experience, trains to Scotland are very well-used from this station - it means people living north of London don't have to bother going into and then out of London again in order to go north.

Now, like Virgin with Watford Junction, it means at least one change at almost any time of the day.

 

[tbtc]

I am not sure if you are refering to Leeds - Newark as a Niche market or just a general quote which happens to be below that comment

No, I wasn't commenting on Leeds - Newark.

Its just impossible to make a simple improved timetable without getting rid of a few existing links (some of which may only be a couple of trains a day).

The only real solution would be to ensure that all trains stop at Doncaster which at least enables reasonable changes to be made there (e.g. if there were four or five trains an hour on the ECML stopping there then everywhere north of Doncaster would have an okay connection with everywhere south.
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I'm disappointed to see how poor the proposals for Stevenage are. In my experience, trains to Scotland are very well-used from this station - it means people living north of London don't have to bother going into and then out of London again in order to go north

True, but then again passengers travelling from Aberdeen/ Inverness/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh etc want a quick journey to London that competes with the plane, which means no stops south of York on a few services. Impossible to meet all demands.

The one thing that might have worked would have been GNER's proposal for "London Parkway" near the M25, but (like all their plans) it was never built

 

[gordonthemoron]

Rather than Doncaster, all trains should stop at Newark as the Lincoln services don't go through Doncaster

 

[Failed Unit]

No, I wasn't commenting on Leeds - Newark.

Its just impossible to make a simple improved timetable without getting rid of a few existing links (some of which may only be a couple of trains a day).

The only real solution would be to ensure that all trains stop at Doncaster which at least enables reasonable changes to be made there (e.g. if there were four or five trains an hour on the ECML stopping there then everywhere north of Doncaster would have an okay connection with everywhere south.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


True, but then again passengers travelling from Aberdeen/ Inverness/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh etc want a quick journey to London that competes with the plane, which means no stops south of York on a few services. Impossible to meet all demands.

The one thing that might have worked would have been GNER's proposal for "London Parkway" near the M25, but (like all their plans) it was never built

As you state totally impossible to keep everyone happy on this kind of thing.

Doncaster - Edinburgh at the moment has already got long gaps of direct trains.
After the 0900 ex Kings Cross there is nothing until 1300, the 1400 and 1600 are both recent additions.

The London - Edinburgh service really should be as quick as possible. The loss of Peterborough isn't as bad if the x.30 service really ran every other hour.

Leeds is a bit more difficult to keep everyone happy. Peterborough needs serving every hour, so without the path into Leeds via Hambleton Newark or Grantham was always going to lose out.

Northallerton gets a drastic increase in East Coast services, but does it need it should this stop be left to Grand Central as they cater for the London - Northellerton flow and the Northallerton - Newcastle flow is covered by Transpennie express. Likewise there are gaps in service so why not let Grand Central / Hull trains fill them? Grand Centrals path already is not optimal so let them stop at Doncaster.

The only otherway around is something like this.
London, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh,
London, Peterborough, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds
London, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle (and Edinburgh)
London, Stevenage, Grantham, Newark, Wakefield, Leeds

Open access operators then covering Doncaster
Grand Central may do,
Stevenage, Newark, Doncaster, York,
Hull Trains may do
Stevenage, Grantham, Retford, Doncaster.

I am not a timetable planner, but it is definately a hard balance to make. Look at the present timetable Southbound from Edinburgh,

People get off the 1600 at Newark Northgate, but I can't tell how many of them have been on since Edinburgh!
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Rather than Doncaster, all trains should stop at Newark as the Lincoln services don't go through Doncaster

When you look at the current timetable the following services from London stop at Doncaster.

0615, 0900, 1300, 1330, 1400, 1530, 1600, 1800

The proposed timetable
0730, 0930, 1130, 1530, 1630,

So a reduction of 3, it is a pity the 1330 doesn't run to Edinburgh.

It would be good to see the joint line running between Lincoln and Doncaster to arrive at Doncaster at say x.55 and depart at x.05 to provide good connections for Lincoln to both Leeds and the North (even Hull when running).

 

[tbtc]

Rather than Doncaster, all trains should stop at Newark as the Lincoln services don't go through Doncaster

True, I just picked Doncaster as there are plenty of platforms plus a lot more connections and the Lincoln service wouldn't be that frequent
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Northallerton gets a drastic increase in East Coast services, but does it need it should this stop be left to Grand Central as they cater for the London - Northellerton flow and the Northallerton - Newcastle flow is covered by Transpennie express. Likewise there are gaps in service so why not let Grand Central / Hull trains fill them? Grand Centrals path already is not optimal so let them stop at Doncaster..

Agree about Northallerton - it must be one of the most "over-served" stations in the country! TPE do a regular service to York/ Newcastle etc, plus GC do a few to London - there's a lot of bigger places with a much worse service. I'd rather that ECML services skipped it and served bigger places or interchanges (York, Doncaster and Peterborough may not be that big, but they are very handy for connections)

 

[Daimler]

True, but then again passengers travelling from Aberdeen/ Inverness/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh etc want a quick journey to London that competes with the plane, which means no stops south of York on a few services. Impossible to meet all demands.

The one thing that might have worked would have been GNER's proposal for "London Parkway" near the M25, but (like all their plans) it was never built

Why would stopping at 'London Parkway' be somehow less intrusive for Anglo-Scottish journeys than stopping at Stevenage? It's still a stop.

And besides, it only adds a couple of minutes - if that - to the overall journey time. Furthermore, not all trains necessarily need to stop, so they can have fast trains *and* convenient trains.

 

[rail-britain]

As I had heard some time ago, the early morning late night Dundee - Edinburgh which used to be Cross Country will be East Coast

Also noted that it can be "quicker" to travel from Glasgow Queen Street rather than Central
Example :
12:50 Glasgow Central - Newcastle / 15:59 - London Kings Cross
13:30 Glasgow Queen Street - Edinburgh / 14:30 - London Kings Cross
The only real benefit is to passengers travelling to/from Motherwell

 

[tbtc]

Why would stopping at 'London Parkway' be somehow less intrusive for Anglo-Scottish journeys than stopping at Stevenage? It's still a stop.

And besides, it only adds a couple of minutes - if that - to the overall journey time. Furthermore, not all trains necessarily need to stop, so they can have fast trains *and* convenient trains.

...because it'd be once central place to stop that would connect with local trains/ buses (potential coach links to airports round the M25 etc), and have plenty car parking catered for people in SE England heading "up north".

Stevenage would cater for some traffic, but then so would a lot of other places - otherwise we get into the MML argument when some people expect long distance intercity trains to stop at all stations near London to cater for potential journeys. FGW only stop at Slough and Reading on their long distance journeys.

It may only add a couple of minutes to the journey, but if you're going to stop south of Newcastle then York/ Doncaster/ Peterborough are the main stops where people can connect with their local services (like the Great Northern EMUs to places like Stevenage)

 

[87015]

Out of interest, does the DfT have train planners who have done this or has NR/EC/outside contractors been used?

Looks like I'll be using the plane more to/from Scotland if they can't be bothered to provide stops at Stevenage, Luton Airport it is then.

 

[The Planner]

Specced by the Dft, completed by NR

 

[philjo]

Unless the FCC peterborough services are going to change their times as well under the new timetable, they do not connect well with the east coast services at Peterborough - I think southbound you will have to wait almost half an hour for a FCC departure (assuming your arrival there is on time) - by which time the east coast service would be south of Stevenage, so this owuld add almost 90 minutes to current overall journey time.

I can do York-Letchworth changing at Stevenage in under 2 hours to the time I arrive home at the moment - it will be at least 3 with the new timetable - so slower than going up the A1 (maybe a bit less on weekdays if it coincides with a fast FCC evening service out of Kings cross), but then presumably going via London would cost more, even on an advanced ticket

I would have thought that at least the York "stopper" service could call - it stops everywhere else.
We only need a direct Darlington/Newcastle service from Stevenage on a 2-hourly basis (as will also be done for Northallerton, Alnwick etc) -i.e. in the hours the York Stopper does not run, so that would be only 1 in 4 Newcastle services calling at Stevenage, so the london travellers can use one of the faster services.

 

[tbtc]

We only need a direct Darlington/Newcastle service from Stevenage on a 2-hourly basis (as will also be done for Northallerton, Alnwick etc) -i.e. in the hours the York Stopper does not run

Isn't the path of the York "stopper" in alternate hours going to be taken by the new Lincoln service?

If it was all under one company, I could see the logic in one slow path for alternating Lincoln/ Hull services, an hourly semi fast to York (with some continuing to Sunderland via Teesside), two per hour to Leeds
and two per hour to Newcastle (with many continuing to Edinburgh/ beyond).

However, given Hull Trains and Grand Central have their independent ambitions, its a lot harder to sort something out

 

[jopsuk]

Yikes. Cambridge-Stirling (a journey I do fairly often) can at the moment be done with a single change (Peterbrough- though that is a bit of a long change if you do it that way, it is still possible), though three is more common (add in Ely and Edinburgh).

Late evening returns, the booking engines tend to route you via Stevenage at the moment (which is a two-change journey for most timings)

The "Eureka" timetable doesn't even seem to have very many Peterbrough-Edinburgh trains unless I'm reading it wrongly?

It's a pain, the summary documents only concentrate on to/from London.
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However, given Hull Trains and Grand Central have their independent ambitions, its a lot harder to sort something out

What powers to DafT have if they wanted to try and rearrange the whole EC timetable to what you suggest? Can they cut the OA operators out if they want the services they currently provide to be covered by the franchised TOC?

 

[asylumxl]

Forgive me for being cynical, but it's just another attempt by another Government to stimulate growth in the North. Hence the increased frequency and connection times in Leeds.

It's just like the government wanting HS2 to serve the North, with a "possible" extension (that would probably never happen) to Scotland. It's just an attempt to stimulate growth in "their" country, and not SNPs Scotland.

(Does it come across my mother was Scots? )

 

[Failed Unit]

As I had heard some time ago, the early morning late night Dundee - Edinburgh which used to be Cross Country will be East Coast

Also noted that it can be "quicker" to travel from Glasgow Queen Street rather than Central
Example :
12:50 Glasgow Central - Newcastle / 15:59 - London Kings Cross
13:30 Glasgow Queen Street - Edinburgh / 14:30 - London Kings Cross
The only real benefit is to passengers travelling to/from Motherwell

This is true, in most case you can leave Glasgow 10 minutes later and change at Edinburgh. It is a horses for courses situation however, if you are closer to Queen street or your train uses Queen Street low level why would you spend another 10 minutes going to Glasgow Central? Personally I wouldn't risk the 10 minute connection at Edinburgh and go for the x.45 instead. No point in "saving" 10 minutes to watch your train South leaving Edinburgh because of a delay.

However if you are closer to Central (or your connecting train uses Central)you will waste your 10 minutes getting to Queen Street. It is better to be on a direct train than risk a change even if it slower, hence why people like Wrexham and Shropshire.

Peterborough is the main loser of the Glasgow change, Doncaster is to a lesser extent. There are 3 direct trains from Doncaster - Glasgow now this will be reduced to 1. judging by how empty the 1800 ex KX is from leaving Edinburgh I don't think the Doncaster - Glasgow flow is large on this service.
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I would have thought that at least the York "stopper" service could call - it stops everywhere else.

By the time it gets to Doncaster it is only 3 minutes ahead of the x.30 service going north. It would need overtaking at Retford if it was to stop at Stevenage instead.