Euro Nazis

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by The 375 King, 17 Jun 2012.

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  1. The 375 King

    The 375 King Member

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    With the Greek elections taking place, I have noticed that a sort of nazi party has a lot of following over their. Also such parties are getting more of a following in other parts of europe, this worries me as I have children, and would not want them to see a repeat of WW2, I am no expert in politics so would be interested in what others think, could it all happen again, or will we be safe as now in the future?
     
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  3. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    Nazism was a combination of territorial loss and economic depression and since 1945 we've understood that no one group of people is responsible for all a nation's ills. Additionally Nazism took root in the (then as now) most industrially advanced country in Europe.

    In the case of Greece there has been no territory lost so it'd be hard for them to get a rallying point as it were and their standing army is too small so any war would be localised and overwhelmed by EU/NATO/UN forces. A conventional world war is largely impossible now as the world is too globalised, instead economic forces will be used such as Chinese investment in West Africa

    A bigger danger to world peace lies in religious extremists who are unafraid to die and would think nothing of setting off a nuke if they got hold of one.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The far right may be getting more of a following but it's still pitifully small. Also Norway's far right has been oddly quiet on Anders Brievik.

    IMO we need a debate on the rise of the far right in the national media, at the moment they're swept under the rug as racists but I think if we can expose them we'll do a lot better than hiding it from public view
     
  4. NY Yankee

    NY Yankee Member

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    The Nazis should meet the Tea Party in America.

    I'm very concerned about Iran getting a Nuke. I think that the US and UK should adopt an isolationist policy in regards to Israel. If terrorists view those two countries as allies of Israel then they'll attack those countries.
     
  5. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I think we've done enough on our own both now and in the past (we've been involved in the Middle East before Israel existed as modern day nation) to make our being allies of Israel (not that I think we are an ally of Israel) a minor factor in any decision making process that might lead to an attack. Far more likely to be an factor in deciding to attack the UK is our involvement in Afghanistan, possibly future involvement in Iran or Syria, our former involvement in Iraq and probably just being a Western Liberal Democracy (yes yes we're a constitutional monarchy but I'm speaking in broad terms ;)) that is close to the US.

    As for the march of the far-right in Europe, I'll start getting concerned if they start actually getting any real political traction in a major European country (like France or Germany or ourselves). Over here the BNP, for example, have made some inroads into to local government but they've never even been close to getting an MP into parliament which means they're nothing to be too concerned about. Personally, I find the likelihood of war breaking out in Europe to be a remote possibility. I think things would really really have to go to hell for there to be a general war between nations in the style of WW2 in Europe. The costs would be too high for it to be worthwhile in all but the most extreme of situations.
     
  6. WestCoast

    WestCoast Established Member

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    The world has changed tremendously since WW2 and Europe has radically evolved beyond all recognition. If you're thinking of a conventional war fought on European soil, then no, providing there aren't mass revolutions, that just isn't a realistic possibility nowadays.

    Greece is a very sad case and it has everything to do with the economic situation. Much of the electorate have lost all faith in all forms of Government in that country and increasingly voters have turned to the far-right in despair. It is often stated that the problem with Greece is, put simply, it implemented high living standards and high levels of infrastructure spending (schools, transport, hospitals, social welfare arrangements, leisure facilities e.t.c) with poor fiscal management. Matters such as a large amount of uncollected tax, low pension ages and an excessively large public service workforce are all part of this.

    With the whole financial crisis, many Greeks have suffered immensely. People who were once in secure teaching positions are having to go to soup kitchens to feed their families. That's a huge negative change in your life. Obviously, people are looking to apportion blame. Without delving too much into the whole economics of the Eurozone, most in Greece blame their own past governments for not keeping a tighter control of collecting taxes and revenue spending. Of course, people weren't necessarily thinking about that in the good years of cheap and accessible credit!

    Some now also blame the EU and more specifically Germany for the austerity in the country. That's because the EU and Germany has insisted that major cutbacks take place because of the financial bailout that has been/will be provided, which have been extreme but arguably essential to keep the country afloat. I am by no means an expert on this issue, but I do wonder if that had led to this support for the far-right. My personal view on this is that the Euro currency was a political dream and was not based on rational economics. To assume that Greece has as strong fiscal management as, say, the Netherlands was as silly in 1999 as it is now. However, that is digressing slightly.

    Basically, what I am saying is that far-right support in Greece is down to the very poor economic situation there that has arisen out of the whole Euro debacle. People have experienced massive falls in living standards and have lost faith in and/or have anger towards the more mainstream parties in Greece. It's not about territorial disputes or racial discrimination and I don't think it signifies any sort of nationalist trend that will sweep Europe and polarise nations.

    I am no expert of course, but the above is just how I see the situation...
     
    Last edited: 18 Jun 2012
  7. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    There is definitely some historical evidence that suggests when things get really bad economically people will turn to the extremes of the political spectrum. 1930s Germany of course being the most famous example of a poor economic situation (inflation so bad that one mark was worth four thousand million dollars) where the NSDAP (Nazi Party) along with a number of communist/left wing parties like the KPD were able to secure votes at the expense of the more moderate parties. However, Hitler was a better political operative than his opponents and probably crucially had a party that was much more appealing to most Germans and German business than one built along the lines of a Marxist-Leninist philosophy.

    There are other examples throughout Europe in the 1930s. Even over here in Britain the more extreme elements of the political spectrum gained ground but were foiled to an extent by the much maligned FPTP electoral system (but there are other factors).

    Certainly I would say that the ongoing economic downturn (looking at history) is almost certainly an causal factor in the more extreme political parties gaining more votes and coverage than they have in some time.
     
    Last edited: 18 Jun 2012
  8. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    Those guys are frightening, practically Christian fundamentalists (except where it doesn't suit them of course) iirc. I'm not sure if they're fielding a candidate in the Presidential election but Obama seems your only sane choice.

    Whilst they do have less support here it's also important to remember that our voting system disadvantages small parties. IIRC in the Netherlands they formed a coalition with more moderate parties of the right
    The biggest danger to a far-right government IMO, the more moderate right letting them in and making a few concessions to the far right to keep the left (moderate and far) out.

    Germany in early 1933 was split with voters going to the far left and far right and a Weimar war game showed that the army imposed by Versailles could not keep order if war broke out between Rotfront and the Sturmabteilung so Hitler was invited to form a government to bring order and the rest is history.
     
  9. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    They might do but the last to even come close was an Independent back in 1992 and even then he only won 18% of the popular vote (Clinton getting 43% and Bush snr 37.5%). So I think we're pretty safe from a Tea Party candidate getting anywhere near the White House.

    Aye, for all it's flaws (and they're legion) one of the good things about FPTP is that it pretty much makes it impossible for the extreme wings of politics get any real traction.
     
  10. WCMLaddict

    WCMLaddict Member

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    As far as I can see the far-right parties in Europe are highly dependent on immigration issues and feast on xenophobic feelings which are very often driven by financial problems and struggles.
     
  11. Butts

    Butts Established Member

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    Can anyone tell me the difference between a Fascist and a Communist - ie Stalin and Hitler.

    Both seem to achieve similar results with Stalin the winner by most reckonings on the "bumping people off scale"

    Yet Hitler wins in the notoriety stakes :p
     
  12. The Snap

    The Snap Established Member

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    Keeping it basic:

    Fascists are right wing, Communists are left wing.

    Fascists believe in a 'superior' group dominating over all other 'inferior' groups, while Communists believe in one collective community, from government to slums.

    The fact organisations adopting these two principles have both killed in vast numbers doesn’t mean they are similar in their ideologies.
     
  13. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    Except in America where "communists" are anyone who isn't right wing ;)
     
  14. Butts

    Butts Established Member

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    So what would you describe the Politburo as then if not a superior group dominating all the inferior groups - surely some are a little more equal than others :oops:

    During the time of the USSR White Russians discriminated against other ethnic USSR citizens.

    In their extremes I can see no fundamental differences between a Fascist and Communist state.....ie Nazi Germany and The Soviet Union.

    They have no ideologies other than the personal advancement and enrichment of those at the top of the pile :p
     
  15. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    One of my lecturers once told me that whilst people see the political spectrum as being a straight line this doesn't really reflect actual experience. In reality the political spectrum is more of a horseshoe shape with the extremes actually becoming very similar to each other even though they are supposedly opposites.

    I've always thought that was a much more accurate model than a simple straight line.
     
  16. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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  17. Oswyntail

    Oswyntail Established Member

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    As I suspect I have mentioned before, the current emphasis on religion as the bedrock of political movements, while fashionable, is counter-productive, The vast majority of US Christians (fundamentalist or not) do not think they have much in common with the Tea Party, just as the vast majority of Muslims (fundamentalist or not) do not support Al Qa'ida in any way.As ever, look for the causes of unrest in deprivation and economic imbalance, and you will see unscrupulous opportunists using whatever banner they can find to exploit this.
     
  18. WestCoast

    WestCoast Established Member

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    Interesting, my result was centrist, which I agree with.
     
  19. Butts

    Butts Established Member

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    Agh....I'm a Liberal:oops:
     
  20. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Rightist Libertarian here, according to both that the Political Compass test.
     
  21. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

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    Liberal
     
  22. Oswyntail

    Oswyntail Established Member

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    Left wing centrist - which would surprise my brother and sisters who think I am the incarnation of Attilla. But I think they're just soppy.:)
     
  23. Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    Liberal, I would guess most people from the UK would be libberal, as It is a reasonable explaination of our governments relative to the US.
     
  24. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Libertarian apparently! Gibber!:)
     
  25. Greenback

    Greenback Emeritus Moderator

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    I am liberal apparently, but I identify myself more with the statist description.

    I therefore conclude that the quiz is fundamentally flawed!
     
  26. LE Greys

    LE Greys Established Member

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    Whether you're serious or not, that's probably true. I appeared to be liberal, although I call myself a Red Tory - that's seriously mixed up! :? If they'd asked whether state-owned buildings should display the national flag, or whether unelected trade bodies should dictate to elected governments...

    Anyway, the Far Right really has no chance of breaking through to form a government, but it can have effects on moderate-right parties trying to court right-wing voters. Look at both here and France, where the BNP and the FN have had some support, but certain other parties have also started talking tough on immigration to court their votes.
     
  27. 313103

    313103 Established Member

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    Left Wing Liberal! Not very surprised at that.
     
  28. Temple Meads

    Temple Meads Established Member

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    Left Wing Liberal here too, which I fully expected ;)
     
  29. NSEFAN

    NSEFAN Established Member

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    I was very close to the centre of that chart, with a small tendency to be on the left wing side.

    I can see a pattern developing here! :lol:

    My understanding is that left wing ideologies are more popular in the UK than the US, so I'm not suprised.
     
  30. The Snap

    The Snap Established Member

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    I agree with your point, Soviet Russia did seem to contradict the Communist ideology at times. However, I was just trying to explain the differences between the two basic principles of fascism and communism. How someone interprets and bends them I entirely up to them.

    As has been suggested, the political spectrum can sometimes not be as black and white (or red and blue!) as it seems, and there are all sorts of variations on the common themes.
     
  31. Butts

    Butts Established Member

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    There probably has been no such entity as a communist system that would be considered as adhering to most of the basic principles of the system.

    Perhaps the closest has been Cuba :idea:
     
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