[Europe] - Thaly's/TGV's in England?

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ChrisA

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Do you reckon we'll ever see one day a Thaly's or TGV pull into London Waterloo just like the Eurostars? With the CTRL they should be able to run at a decent speed and since the French get to see our trains, why can't we see theirs?!
 
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yorkie

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Waterloo? No.

St Pancras? Maybe.

If Eurostar increases its traffic levels to such an extent that they need to run more trains, (and not just more than now but more than the ones back from GNER next month can provide as well), then it's possible.

But they might need modifying slightly, for example there are certain rules that apply to trains authorised to use the channel tunnel. But maybe the latest builds of TGV conform anyway, I'm not sure.

There will be a lot less obstacles to overcome once St Pancras is open that's for sure (No need for 3rd rail capability or to run on British signalling systems).
 
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4get it.

Thalys, and other TGV types (except Eurostar) are UIC based, wich means they have the normal with of the european railway networks. In thre UK it's a bit smaller, so it is still 1435 mm track, but the space around doesn't allows other european trains then Eurostar.

And besides that.... For the tunnel you NEED the abiliy to split your train into 2 sections. And the train should be able to get out of the tunnel at 25% enginepower. Only Eurostar's have this. So a Thalys in the UK...... Only if you put them through the tunnel after a freight loco. On the CTRL they should be allowed automatically, Its a French based LGV. But I would love to see a Thalys next to a GNER Eurostar :lol:
 

Met Driver

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Holland on Rail said:
Thalys, and other TGV types (except Eurostar) are UIC based, wich means they have the normal with of the european railway networks. In thre UK it's a bit smaller, so it is still 1435 mm track, but the space around doesn't allows other european trains then Eurostar.
The CTRL isn't being built to the UK's restrictive loading gauge, hence TGVs should be able to run into St Pancras but not Waterloo. The loading gauge will be the same as all the TGV routes, surely?
 

Julian G

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Thalys and TGVs are banned from the West London Line due to gauging so that's why Eurostars are allowed
 

Met Driver

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1288gaje said:
Thalys and TGVs are banned from the West London Line due to gauging...
They aren't allowed to run anywhere for that reason Julian, not just the WLL! It isn't for that reason that Eurostars are allowed; it is because they are built to the UK's loading gauge and also because they use the WLL to access North Pole.
 

tramboy

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CTRL2 is built to the continental HSL gauge, so it is in theory possible to run one in England when it's complete...except the tunnel rules still apply so you might have to haul it through that.

There was actually a GNER Eurostar next to a Thalys set sometime I think, when 3306 and it's partner half set ended (???) up in France for some sort of testing...I could've sworn I read about it somewhere!

Regards

Dave
 

TheSlash

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tramboy said:
There was actually a GNER Eurostar next to a Thalys set sometime I think, when 3306 and it's partner half set ended (???) up in France for some sort of testing...I could've sworn I read about it somewhere!
I think that this was due to the fact that Eurostar does maintenance in 9 coch sets, so only half a unit at a time is maintained, this in turn occassionaly leads to 2 'good halfs' being released as 1 good set.

As for trains coming through the channel tunnel, i dont think hauling them makes any difference as its the fire retardant/suppressant construction terms and conditions of the passenger carrying vehicles that allow them to run through the tunnel
 

TGV

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Excuse the delay in this reponse, but I'm new here and as you may have guessed know a little about TGV's...

To begin with, in theory, it should be possible for any TGV to make it physically from France to St Pancras as the loading gauge is suitable the whole way - even the platfoms at St P International are going to be the lower level Euro-style ones.

Regarding the tunnel - the laws are that the train has to be splittable so one half can be pulled out if there's a problem or fire on the other half. However, given that in 11 years of operation this hasn't been needed and if there was a fire, the OLE would be fried and nothing would be able to move anyway, I think there's a chance that the rules may be changed to facilitate the use of more conventional rolling stock.
 

TGV

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Interestingly - a 373 intercaptials set can actually be propelled by only 1 of it's 12 traction motors working! Not any great pace obviously, but that 1 traction motor has got about 2/3 the power of a class 37!
 

gsdali

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Yes there is a requirement to split trainsets in the tunnel in the event of an emergency but this requirement could be met by running two TGV sets nose to nose as is frequently the case in France. The main obstacle would be the lack of inter-carriage fire doors, an important safety requirement. I have no iseas if these a present on any of the TGV sets I must remember to look out for them next time I get the opportunity. These presumably could be retrofitted if necessary.

However I find it more likely that the eurostar fleet eill be supplemented with a new build of trains, probably based on the TGV Duplex design, although there maybe some issues with the corridor being on the top deck and tunnel evacuation procedures.

Let us hope that the upshot of all this is north of london services, Leeds, Manchester, (No paths) and south of Paris, East of Brussels services. (Amsterdam via HSL Zuid should be quick enough to beat the planes at the very least).

And will someone please see the benefit of London Barcelona Madrid, and London Milan Venice Night trains. (the former once the Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres-Perpignan standard guage high speed line is open).
 
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ICE sets.. like the ICE3m can'y be split. The set has traction potors in echt car (8), but they NEED eachother to work properly. And with it's 6 pantograps it needs 2 of them at any time to pick up energy from the overhead wires. (except on the NBS or LGV system) No.... an ICE to London isn't an option. You have to build new trains for that. Eurostar and Thalys have now joined forces to make a fast interchange possible between the Eurostar from the UK, and the Thalys to Cologne. If needed, this Thalys can proceed its way via the NBS to Frankfurt as it is allowed to operate at the German High Speed Lines.

I think a direct link between (Amsterdam)* - Rotterdam - Lille - Ashfort - London is a more seriouse option.

* space on the HSL-Zuid between Rotterdam and Amsterdam is limited couse every 10 minutes a train will use the line in each direction.
 

ChrisCooper

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TGVs couldn't be used through the tunnel without a lot of modifications. The Eurostars can be split in 3 places (between the half sets and between the powercars and the end trailers) in the event of problems, in a short space of time and without anyone having to leave the train, wheras TGV powercars can only be uncoupled from outside, since they have screw couplings wheras the Eurostars have Sharfenburg couplings), and whilst 2 sets together would be equivalent to a Eurostar and could be split in the middle, there would be no through access between the two halves. Also, TGVs don't have fire doors between coaches, and possibly don't meet other fire safety and reliability requirements. Finally, if a Eurostar needs to evacuate in the tunnel, a retractable bridge is needed to cover the gap between the coach and the walkway, since the walkway is designed for the wider shuttle vehicles, and the TGVs don't have these either.
Whilst it could be argued that these systems have never been needed after more than 10 years, so prehaps the rules could be slackened, that's asking for trouble. Also, there has already been a fire in the tunnel, and the inability to split the HGV shuttle was a big factor in the number of casualties (luckely no-one was killed). Also, TGVs have suffered at least 3 fires over the years, and a Eurostar derailed due to a a transmission failure, and similar problems have also occured on TGVs but without derailment. I would say that it is inevitable that one day an incident like these will occur in the tunnel.
 

LucaZone

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A summary of the thread :

Present Day - ONLY the Class 373 is permitted for use on through services to each country.
Future - Most likely if another TOC decides that it wants a share of the international passenger rail market, as a minimum requirement for such a share, it will need to commission and operate specifically designed trains, that equal that of the Class 373 capabilities.
 

HSTfan!!!

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Well thats a question I've always wanted to know the answer to but never bothered to ask so cheers chaps, still couldn't you haul one through as a non passenger service even for say show purposes, many trains have been dragged through the tunnel - new units etc. so can see there being an exception for that?
 

Andrew

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Yes, trains can be dragged through the tunnel - just not in passenger service. I believe the 185s come through the tunnel - as did the electric Desiros - but they couldn't be used in passenger service!
 
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