• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Eurostar .. Gone down the pan ??

Status
Not open for further replies.

anme

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2013
Messages
1,777
But they are allowed to travel in standard premier? So you're saying that a £195 non-flexible (miss the train and you need to pay another £214, bringing the total fare up to £409 single), 30 minute minimum check in, no lounge access and no meaningful catering ticket is considered to compare favourably with a £245 fully-flexible, 10 minute minimum check in, full lounge access and comprehensive catering ticket? Each to their own, but with the possibility of a meeting over-running, delays with transport to Gard du Nord and other possible exigencies, I would not want to work for a company that considers the former to be the better option.

Sadly in the real world, most companies have a "standard only" policy, not standard-premier. I don't know any company that considers flexible tickets, lounge access and comprehensive catering something they will pay extra for (the most senior staff excepted). The point about missing the train is that most people do not miss the train, so most people do not need the flexibility. Even assuming you miss your train every fourth trip (which would suggest very bad planning), you still pay more overall than in your maximum price standard-premier example. And remember, even most business trips are not booked the day before, so typically the ratio will have to be even higher to make business premier make sense.

UPDATE: all Eurostar tickets are exchangeable before departure for 30 pounds plus the fare difference before departure (so call your travel agent from the taxi), so the ratios swing wildly against business premier. Even in your extreme example, changing the ticket still works out 1 pound cheaper than business premier!
source: http://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/travel-info/travel-planning/eurostar-fares-and-fees

You've chosen a Sunday as the return date, and interestingly, it appears that where a Sunday is selected as the return portion of a journey to Paris, the standard premier fares are around £20 cheaper in both directions - a minimum of £79.50 compared to the usual minimum of £97.50. This is slightly bizarre as the £79.50 fares are not available if both the outward and return portions of a journey are made on a Sunday.

For a more typical journey - out and back on a random Wednesday in March - the fares are mostly £29 standard / £97.50 standard premier, and there are a few trains at £29 standard / £199.50 standard premier.

Depends what you call typical. I would say that coming back on a Sunday is more typical for leisure travellers than on a Wednesday. BTW, I doubt that standard premier is really aimed at business travellers. Most staff will be entitled to either standard class travel (= Eurostar standard), or business class travel (= Eurostar business premier). "Premium Economy" (= Eurostar standard premium) is usually only available in long haul. Now, when I've worked for a relatively humane company, I have been able to persuade my boss to let me use standard premier if the difference is small or negative, and I've used it in similar circumstances when paying myself, but certainly in most companies I know, most people will go standard in most cases.

BTW, Eurostar use demand pricing, and presumably these prices maximise their profits. I don't like demand pricing and have criticised it in other threads. Curiously, I am usually in a very small minority in this opinion. I guess people only like demand pricing when they think it works in their favour.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,164
Location
UK
Hmmmmm sorry I struggle to believe that personally!

That's from entering the terminal at the right level (from the Hex), not from leaving the taxi. It was a Virgin departure from Terminal 2.

T-18 into terminal, into priority security (empty) 40 seconds later, exit security at T-15, ran to gate 25ish, boarded about T-12, they had phoned me to find out where I was as I was sprinting down the terminal. Gate is supposed to shut at T-15 but there's plenty of padding.

It doesn't work at T5 because of the insanely long 35 minute cutoff, however I've enterred security there with literally seconds to go, and still had time for a quick bowl of soup in the north lounge (plane was going from A7 at T-20, so leave lounge at T-22, giving 8 minutes in the lounge.

Here's a report of a far more leisurely trip I did at T2
I took the 1925 HEX from PAD today. Arrived 1942 into t123, where I hurried to t2. Arrived at t2 at 1947, scanned in through fast track.

Asked to go infront of a wheelchair, as my flight was closing soon. Very helpful security chap got two trays out, belt, bag and jacket in one tray, 2 laptops and iPad in other.

The laptop tray flagged on a random swab. Took 20 seconds tops while I put my belt back on.

Walked to the gate, arriving 1953. Passed down the empty fast track past about 15 others and got on the plane. Gate close at 1955 for a 2010 departure. Boarding complete 2002.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

urbophile

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2015
Messages
2,059
Location
Liverpool
Eurostar has always modelled itself on airlines, and I agree with you that it's a failing. I reckon that if they remembered that they were a railway a little mor often than they do, things like astandard premier would be a lot better than they are!

You could understand them modelling themselves on an airline if they had airline prices. Admittedly that's not just a Eurostar problem, and I agree there can be some bargain fares. But not compared with Ryanair or Easyjet. I want to get to Milan in the summer, from Liverpool. Now there is no direct flight so I will have to travel to Manchester to Bergamo. Say about £10 train fare, + £32.99 for the flight, + £35 (!!) for one suitcase, + £4 for the bus Bergamo-Milano. About £80. By rail, I can't access the fare schedule for July yet, but a date in the spring shows £35 (the cheapest advance fare) Liverpool - Euston; £56 St Pancras - Paris; £22 Paris- Milano. All cheap fares by railway standards but still adding up to £113 for the single journey. And taking all day. And probably entailing a taxi fare from home to Lime Street because it's too early for the local trains.

An environmental disaster! I would much prefer to travel by train (despite the early start) but if the fare puts me off no wonder it puts off the vast majority of travellers who wouldn't normally think of using the train. Either the airlines are getting vast amounts of subsidy from somewhere, or the railways haven't got their act together, or both.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,164
Location
UK
An environmental disaster! I would much prefer to travel by train (despite the early start) but if the fare puts me off no wonder it puts off the vast majority of travellers who wouldn't normally think of using the train. Either the airlines are getting vast amounts of subsidy from somewhere, or the railways haven't got their act together, or both.

Actually it's the railways that get the vast amounts of subsidies (unless you put values on CO2 emmissions)

It's far cheaper to fly a plane somewhere, where you don't need any passenger infrastructure other than a runway for about 2 minutes for the trip, and a gate for about 20 minutes.

A train requires vast swathes of land to be used to perform the same task.
 

Ianigsy

Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
1,096
You could understand them modelling themselves on an airline if they had airline prices. Admittedly that's not just a Eurostar problem, and I agree there can be some bargain fares. But not compared with Ryanair or Easyjet. I want to get to Milan in the summer, from Liverpool. Now there is no direct flight so I will have to travel to Manchester to Bergamo. Say about £10 train fare, + £32.99 for the flight, + £35 (!!) for one suitcase, + £4 for the bus Bergamo-Milano. About £80. By rail, I can't access the fare schedule for July yet, but a date in the spring shows £35 (the cheapest advance fare) Liverpool - Euston; £56 St Pancras - Paris; £22 Paris- Milano. All cheap fares by railway standards but still adding up to £113 for the single journey. And taking all day. And probably entailing a taxi fare from home to Lime Street because it's too early for the local trains.

When I went Leeds-London-Paris-Lyon-Milan last summer I ended up spending the first night of my holiday in a hotel at Canning Town because of the ferry protesters lighting tyres on the tracks. Personally I would never again book Eurostar as the middle leg of a three-stage journey because while the experience of travelling with them can be absolutely excellent and I wouldn't hesitate to book Standard Premier to Paris again, when things go wrong their customer service seems to vanish and you're left to find your own bed for the night, which isn't ideal when it's not really practical to go back home and the place you were expecting to sleep is several hundred miles away and you can't get there tonight.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,242
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
As a counterpoint to your experience, I have twice[1], when flying easyJet, been stranded overnight. Both times they arranged accommodation without having to be asked to do so - on one occasion it was the on-airport Hilton hotel, which must have cost them a quid or three, on the other it was a Travelodge style place in Annemasse over the border into France from Switzerland (no good if you'd bought duty free :) ), but in both cases it was fine and all costs were covered.

[1] This does not show extreme bad luck, just something like 300 flights in the last 5 years.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,164
Location
UK
Exactly. That's where we are going wrong, because we don't.

So what value would we put on it? Most figures for CO2 emmissions come in about $30 a tonne.

You'll save maybe 350kg of CO2 if you sent a plane load of passengers on the train (and instead didn't fly the plane) - based on pro-train site http://www.seat61.com/CO2flights.htm

At $30 a tonne that would be about £6.

However you could argue $30/tonne is way to low. Instead you could use the figures "businessgreen.com" quote - "The real social cost of carbon: $220 per ton, report finds" .

That would put about £50 on the plane journey.

Most of those people on the plane won't be taking a suitcase, so they'll still be only paying £88 to get across europe, having factored in CO2. £30 cheaper than the train - and the train still has subsidies!
 

Blamethrower

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2014
Messages
384
Location
Bedfordshire
I did E* to brussels and back for a Steven Wilson concert at the weekend. Premier on the way there, standard on the way back.

- Premier seats are much more comfortable, wider, more legroom, compartments are less crowded, food and drink is average. Worth the extra
- standard seats are narrower, taller and give me coccyx pain. In standard there are just tons of families and screaming kids.

So overall, I will never travel standard again, just like I won't if I fly to barbados. Standard seats in any form give me chronic back/shoulder/coccyx ache and it annoys me that I have to pay more just because of my size. (6ft with broad shoulders)

The rest of the E* was quite nice and relaxing tbh. Other than checkin at St Pancras. they only had 2 trains leaving within the hour that we left and it was really disorganised and crowded within the departure lounge.

I was hoping for the e300 but judging by earlier comments, legroom on that is appalling in standard class. But then it is on the non-refurbished units. Hopefully the e320 has good legroom for all passengers, then perhaps I would consider standard class again.

It's the best way to travel medium distances across europe (considering its an easy trip for me to St pancras) but the interior refurbishment really is something they need to get right. Plus cleaning, just because the seats are brown and black at the moment doesn't mean you can neglect the very basics of train maintenance. I wish there 1 one travel company who actually gave a damn about the passenger environment.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
I haven't really found any difference at all, comfort wise, between Standard Premier and Standard. It just goes to show that we all experience things differently!
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
You're right, and this is a good illustration of that. Of course, width and body shape, length of leg etc all come into it as well. I've lost count of the number of times I've found seats anywhere to be uncomfortable, yet others have felt are wonderful!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,242
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
You're right, and this is a good illustration of that. Of course, width and body shape, length of leg etc all come into it as well. I've lost count of the number of times I've found seats anywhere to be uncomfortable, yet others have felt are wonderful!

The GWR very high back Standard seats are a very good example - I really like them but so many hate them.
 

coupwotcoup

Member
Joined
29 Jul 2007
Messages
261
Invariably when I travel on Eurostar it's the first-leg of an onward trip to Spain,
so I have no qualms about sitting on the seats between carriages at the front of the train.

This gives a quick getaway to the RER before the crush of bodies and luggage
makes exiting quite daunting if you get caught up in the crush at GdN.

I'm lucky enough to live about 25 minutes north of Ebbsfleet and can't recall having used
St Pancras yet, as the first Kent stop is usually much quieter and far more relaxing.

Haven't used first class for a while now - back in the day when Cresta used to do some
great deals with long weekends to Brussels et al, then it was brilliant. Food was excellent,
be it breakfast, brunch or lunch and the free wine never stopped coming.

As for the staff, I've always found the E* bods nothing but helpful and friendly, particularly
last October when I left my passport in Spain. One girl at Paris helped me every step of the way,
including having pic of said passport sent to her email address, which allowed me through.

Maybe I've just been lucky, apart from one night in 2000 when landslips blocked both paths to
London and it took eight hours from Ashford to Waterloo, but even then, E* laid on taxis for everyone,
regardless as to wherever they were going in the country.

So, nothing but thumbs up for me and always enjoy it.
 

LesS

Member
Joined
24 Apr 2012
Messages
159
Location
Sydney
I travelled E* twice last year; both in standard premier. I was very happy with the space and for such a short journey the food service was adequate. The previous year I travelled standard and consider this to be as close as one can get to "cattle" class. It was abominable.

Lille:
About 18 months/2 years ago there was a serious problem at Lille with stolen baggage. Passengers were alighting and taking other passengers baggage. This seemed to apply mainly to Brussels services. Hence the change in procedures.
Lille passengers from Brussels have a separate check-in; must stay in a designated car and are not allowed even to go to the buffet. I suspect that there have been changes at the Lille check-in also. I do not know, but there may also be changes at Nord.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,164
Location
UK
Lille passengers from Brussels have a separate check-in; must stay in a designated car and are not allowed even to go to the buffet. I suspect that there have been changes at the Lille check-in also. I do not know, but there may also be changes at Nord.

I suspect this is the answer to the "Lille Loophole", and nothing to do with security.
 

Groningen

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2015
Messages
2,866
Eurostar hit something today in Belgium; so it arrived 6 hours late in Brussel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top