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Eurostar: Juxtaposed Controls, Customs, Regulation from 01/01/2021

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miami

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passport checks for leaving the UK have taken place in St. Pancras for a number of years.

Electronic "passport checks" are done, however there's no check by UK border authorities on leaving the UK by plane. Airlines do check your passport for visa purposes when travelling to certain countries (with BA it's usually pre security, but I've had it at the gate on occasion), otherwise it's a glance at the passport when travelling to europe

I don't recall a passport check at St Pancras though - isn't it just scan the barcode, go through the theatre, then you're into Schengen entry passport check?

I presume Israel switched to paper slips because of the number of Arab countries that won't let people in with Israeli stamps in their passports. I liked that my last passport had plenty of stamps in it because it showed my non European travel. Id doubt id feel the same about half a dozen Spanish stamps for lazy beach holidays. Electronic pre clearance and e gates are much better from a security perspective, cheaper for governments and are faster for travelers. One year of European stamps might be interesting but not something id want every time I enter the EU.

Still get the practically impossible to remove security sticker on the back of your passport when you leave. I'm not sure if you get stamps at land crossings any more - I've got exit and entry stamps at Erez from the time they still stamped at Tel Aviv, but I haven't been to Gaza for several years.
 
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AlbertBeale

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I don't think this is quite right - the tickets you bought at King's Cross to the Balkans would have been valid only by a specific route, not 'whichever way you went'. Details of the routeing and border crossings were shown on the ticket. Virtually all the continent's trains are still run by publicly owned administrations, so there is little change there. There are only a few 'rival private companies', and not many of them truly privately owned.

So there are other commercial reasons for the previous style of ticketing no longer being available, plus, of course, demand being so low that it is not worthwhile spending money, time and effort on it.

Yes - London-Balkans tickets did have routing points, but pretty liberal ones. For example you had a choice of ferry routes across the channel; and you could use quite a wide variety of routings in mainland Europe too. For instance, I remember going across northern Italy via Venice in one direction and a more northerly route via Switzerland in the other direction.

The fact that there are, you say, "other commercial reasons" for such through tickets not being possible is exactly my point - whether or not many rail systems in Europe are still nominally publicly-owned, they nevertheless operate on competitive commercial principles rather than co-operative public service principles.
 

Bletchleyite

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To be fair, though, at least in latter years those through tickets tended to be quite expensive, and splitting the journey up and getting the operator's Advance equivalents often saved money. Though the BIJ/EuroYouth discount was useful, taking about a third off without any sort of Railcard. (Once I had a DB BahnCard a split saved money as that offered 50%).
 

MarcVD

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CIV tickets are still available, it’s just that they are not valid on most private railway companies, Thalys and Eurostar being the most annoying ones. Also not on trains with ”global pricing” which includes all french TGVs. But otherwise, I have been on a CIV tickets from Brussels to places like Montpellier, Zagreb, or Milano, all this in the last 10 years. I think all those CIV trips are still possible today.
 

RT4038

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Yes - London-Balkans tickets did have routing points, but pretty liberal ones. For example you had a choice of ferry routes across the channel; and you could use quite a wide variety of routings in mainland Europe too. For instance, I remember going across northern Italy via Venice in one direction and a more northerly route via Switzerland in the other direction.

The fact that there are, you say, "other commercial reasons" for such through tickets not being possible is exactly my point - whether or not many rail systems in Europe are still nominally publicly-owned, they nevertheless operate on competitive commercial principles rather than co-operative public service principles.

I suspect that the previous ticketing system was in place more due to there being no other practicable way (from a technical point of view), rather than 'public service principles' .
I would view less overcrowding on long distance trains (due to compulsory reservations and market pricing) and cheaper fares to travel on off peak trains, as a better public service than open tickets giving flexibility that few would actually use.
Hopefully one day a universal ticket booking system will be in use (similar to Amadeus or Galileo that the airlines have) for European tickets, incorporating an automatic re-booking system for late running connections [incl. accommodation if necessary], easily used by travellers. I am sure the technical know how is there, all that is needed is agreement by all operators/legislators and the funds to design it. Ha! Perhaps this should be in the Speculative ideas section.
 

StephenHunter

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Electronic "passport checks" are done, however there's no check by UK border authorities on leaving the UK by plane. Airlines do check your passport for visa purposes when travelling to certain countries (with BA it's usually pre security, but I've had it at the gate on occasion), otherwise it's a glance at the passport when travelling to europe

I don't recall a passport check at St Pancras though - isn't it just scan the barcode, go through the theatre, then you're into Schengen entry passport check?



Still get the practically impossible to remove security sticker on the back of your passport when you leave. I'm not sure if you get stamps at land crossings any more - I've got exit and entry stamps at Erez from the time they still stamped at Tel Aviv, but I haven't been to Gaza for several years.

You've been to Gaza?! How did that happen?
 

RT4038

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Electronic "passport checks" are done, however there's no check by UK border authorities on leaving the UK by plane. Airlines do check your passport for visa purposes when travelling to certain countries (with BA it's usually pre security, but I've had it at the gate on occasion), otherwise it's a glance at the passport when travelling to europe

I don't recall a passport check at St Pancras though - isn't it just scan the barcode, go through the theatre, then you're into Schengen entry passport check?

Passport details are taken [scanned] by (Eurostar?) staff between the security check and the Schengen entry passport check. This information is then supplied to UK Border Force.
 

Cloud Strife

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Do they actually check your stuff?
As someone who has annoyed border guards all over Europe, I can tell you that luggage checks on non-EU borders are pretty routine. It depends on the exact border in question, but for instance, on the Terespol-Brest train, you'll have your luggage checked on entry to both Poland and Belarus. They're looking for different things (Poles for cigarettes and booze, Belarusians for drugs), but the checks do exist. Same story on the Hungarian-Serbian border, where the Hungarians are looking for cigarettes while the Serbians are checking 'in general'. I've even had a thorough exit control by the Serbians after they found my passport to be very suspicious due to all the stamps from random Serbian crossings. Plenty of controls in both directions between Poland and Ukraine too.

Even Ceuta (Spain)-Morocco - the Moroccans were stopping random people to have a look at their baggage, while the Spanish were checking every car carefully.

Or from last winter in Cyprus, the Cypriot customs would check people's bags when they entered at the Ledra Street/Lokmaci checkpoint, though the North Cypriot customs couldn't care less what you bring in. The Cypriot customs are a bit more relaxed elsewhere, though they did ask my 3 year old what his name was at one crossing (Deryneia/Kato Deryneia).

Even at the UK/North Cyprus checkpoints, they were checking my boot every single time when crossing from North Cyprus into the UK, though they were pretty much ignoring cars leaving towards North Cyprus.

Same story on Croatian-Bosnian and Croatian-Montenegrin borders - while the Croatian customs rarely check the car physically, they always ask "anything to declare?". I

You can even encounter these controls on internal EU borders. From personal experience:

Gibraltar-Spain by car: random boot checks.
Gibraltar-Spain on foot: luggage frequently x-rayed, sometimes personal checks too.
Spain-Gibraltar by car: usually a look in the car by Gibraltar Customs.
Spain-Gibraltar on foot: occasional luggage searches, though it seemed more intelligence-led than anything.
Ceuta-Spain by ferry: all luggage scanned on entry to mainland Spain by Customs, questions asked to some people.
Spain-Ceuta by ferry: Spanish Customs occasionally checking people, though not systematically.
Slovenia-Croatia by car: occasional checks of the car by Croatian police, once had a thorough check when leaving Slovenia by Slovenian customs.
Croatia-Slovenia by car: occasional checks by Slovenian customs. I've once had my documents inspected very very closely after having crossed the border for about the 10th time that day. I also got stopped very close to the Croatian border by the police who wanted to know what I was doing and where I was going, and they did a thorough check of my documents. They were fine with the explanation though (interested in geography, wanted to look at the border at different points, well equipped with maps showing the precise location of the border in order to avoid accidentally crossing it, promised not to get too close to the border).

Of course, talking about the UK, I've had customs control at the old Arrivals terminal in Dover, though they were pretty hopeless: they didn't pick up on the rather large amount of French fireworks.

So yes, customs controls are pretty routine. I've even seen controls between Denmark and Sweden, and even Sweden/Finland have maintained the old border crossings for random checks. The Norwegian border is quite tightly controlled as well, despite being a Schengen border.

Talking about juxtaposed controls in general: St Pancras is going to be a huge bottleneck unless they do something about it. There will be a lot of non-EU citizens that have to be checked for their health insurance, source of funds, purpose of travel, etc etc, and there's simply not the space there to do it. I think they need to consider reconfiguring the arrival lounge to avoid all that wasted space, especially as they really only need a few small rooms for so-called 'secondary' checks as well as a couple of luggage scanners. One solution could be to do the customs controls at the immigration control, or use technology to automatically 'tag' anyone that might be worth a secondary inspection in the UK. It's not impossible to simply use facial recognition technology and some automatic gates in St Pancras on arrival, with anyone pre-selected for customs control to be automatically directed away from the exit. They could introduce the requirement that customs declarations have to be made before departing from the EU, which would reduce the need for space even further in St Pancras.
 

biko

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Ceuta-Spain by ferry: all luggage scanned on entry to mainland Spain by Customs, questions asked to some people.
Spain-Ceuta by ferry: Spanish Customs occasionally checking people, though not systematically.
I think Ceuta has a special status, so that doesn't surprise me at all.

The Norwegian border is quite tightly controlled as well, despite being a Schengen border.
Norway is outside the customs union, so tight checks are logical. Schengen only applies to immigration checks, so there shouldn't be passport checks.

They could introduce the requirement that customs declarations have to be made before departing from the EU, which would reduce the need for space even further in St Pancras
I think it would be a good idea to combine all types of checks at the departure station as it would simplify customs checks enormously. However, adding the Netherlands to the treaty on juxtaposed passport checks took years to complete, so it will take some time before customs can be added. How customs checks will happen at the open platforms in the meantime, I have no idea.
 

Austriantrain

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How customs checks will happen at the open platforms in the meantime, I have no idea.

On the EU side, it will probably be random checks of suspicious looking passengers. At airports, custom checks are not standard either and I doubt that smuggling from the UK by rail passengers into the EU will be a major concern of the EU (unless specific drug routes emerge, but that is better handled with trained dogs).
 

miami

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You can even encounter these controls on internal EU borders. From personal experience:

Gibraltar-Spain by car: random boot checks.
Gibraltar-Spain on foot: luggage frequently x-rayed, sometimes personal checks too.
Spain-Gibraltar by car: usually a look in the car by Gibraltar Customs.
Spain-Gibraltar on foot: occasional luggage searches, though it seemed more intelligence-led than anything.
Ceuta-Spain by ferry: all luggage scanned on entry to mainland Spain by Customs, questions asked to some people.
Spain-Ceuta by ferry: Spanish Customs occasionally checking people, though not systematically.

None of those have ever been in the EU Customs union

Slovenia-Croatia by car: occasional checks of the car by Croatian police, once had a thorough check when leaving Slovenia by Slovenian customs.
Croatia-Slovenia by car: occasional checks by Slovenian customs. I've once had my documents inspected very very closely after having crossed the border for about the 10th time that day. I also got stopped very close to the Croatian border by the police who wanted to know what I was doing and where I was going, and they did a thorough check of my documents. They were fine with the explanation though (interested in geography, wanted to look at the border at different points, well equipped with maps showing the precise location of the border in order to avoid accidentally crossing it, promised not to get too close to the border).

Since Croatia joined the EU in 2013?
 

Cloud Strife

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I think Ceuta has a special status, so that doesn't surprise me at all.

Yup, it's outside the EU VAT area (they have IPSI, which is basically an import tax of between 0.5% to 10%), but because Gibraltar is much closer, it doesn't really have the duty free trade that other places have (like Aland). What was surprising was that Spanish customs took it the pedestrian controls so seriously, especially as they were only doing spot checks for cars.

Norway is outside the customs union, so tight checks are logical. Schengen only applies to immigration checks, so there shouldn't be passport checks.

Yes, exactly this. Sweden/Finland doesn't really control entry into the EU in the same way for tourist travel, as prices are higher in Norway. If anyone is interested in how the Norwegian/EU border looks, this is a typical example here. Passport checks do happen on occasion at Schengen borders too, as I've been stopped numerous times on the PL-D and PL-CZ border for them.

I think it would be a good idea to combine all types of checks at the departure station as it would simplify customs checks enormously. However, adding the Netherlands to the treaty on juxtaposed passport checks took years to complete, so it will take some time before customs can be added. How customs checks will happen at the open platforms in the meantime, I have no idea.

Yes, it's the most logical and sensible solution. UK Border Force officers are qualified to do both jobs (AFAIK), so there's no reason why they couldn't take place on departure. It would only be an issue in the UK->EU direction, but this could easily be handled with some simple infrastructure at the destination. You don't need complicated infrastructure: it's enough to have a green line on the ground for travellers to follow to the exit, while the red line can lead travellers to a desk where they can make the relevant declaration. Or even just do what often happens on the Swiss border: you can make a written declaration before exiting, such as at the Swiss border stations. The Swiss actually make it very easy to deal with, as it doesn't require any additional infrastructure, just a sign warning you that you're about to cross the Customs border and a postbox with forms available to fill in. You can even make the declaration through an app and pay the duties accordingly.

With such a system, all you have to do is have random spot checks, and make the fines heavy enough so that people will think carefully about whether they have anything to declare or not.

miami said:
None of those have ever been in the EU Customs union

Indeed, but they were part of the EU at the time. I was responding rather to the point that there are no checks within the EU, which simply isn't true.

miami said:
Since Croatia joined the EU in 2013?

Yup. The Slovenian example on exit was interesting, and after they checked everything, they said that they'd been told to look for a stolen car matching that description.

It's quite common for the German Zoll to be on the PL/CZ borders too, as they have rather hard limits on cigarette imports.
 
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