Eurostar London - Amsterdam suspended until 2028? Is this just clickbait?

[Mawkie]

Apparently Amsterdam Centraal is being reconstructed and platform 15b will be needed to store the materials. Is it just sensationalist journalism to suggest the Eurostar service will be suspended until 2028?

No trains between Amsterdam and London for years (until 2028?!) | DutchReview

Due to extended construction works at Amsterdam Centraal there might not be a Eurostar riding between Amsterdam and London until 2028!

dutchreview.com

In a letter to the House of Representatives, the Minister for the Environment Vivianne Heijnen foreshadowed that trains between Amsterdam and London might be put on ice for years to come. What does that mean? Well, the plan is to wrap up the construction work in 2028. Say, what?! A missing platform The problem? Platform 15b at Amsterdam Centraal where Eurostars depart to the UK will be used as a building site during the construction works. The platform is where security checks and passport controls prepare passengers for their international train journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They were looking at using another station, weren't they? I think that's the Dutch version of the "Reach" companies' clickbait.

 

[DanielB]

No it's actually potentially 4 years no Eurostar from Amsterdam Central. Tracks are also being realigned and in the final layout platform 15 will no longer be in use.
Space is indeed limited: the Eurostar lounge was build already on a platform which previously housed the construction crew of the bus station next to platform 15.

Details are in this letter (page 6) from the state secretary in charge of public transport (in Dutch).

 

[43096]

No it's actually potentially 4 years no Eurostar from Amsterdam Central. Tracks are also being realigned and in the final layout platform 15 will no longer be in use.
Space is indeed limited: the Eurostar lounge was build already on a platform which previously housed the construction crew of the bus station next to platform 15.

What’s the plan, then? Terminate at Rotterdam and put the passengers on the Breda or AmRo ICD services?

 

[DanielB]

There is no plan yet, the letter from the state secretary I linked above states that there will be looked into a temporary solution.

When Amsterdam Central indeed loses its Eurostar facilities temporary your suggestion makes most sense, with the train itself probably still running empty to/from Amsterdam Watergraafsmeer for cleaning.
In the original plans Eurostar would have been moved to Amsterdam Zuid, but as the Zuidasdok project is delayed there's no space there for a secure boarding area.

 

[StephenHunter]

The secure boarding area is less of an issue coming from London of course.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The secure boarding area is less of an issue coming from London of course.

Well in the worst case, they could just go back to the old system of direct trains only in 1 direction.

 

[popeter45]

isnt the long term Plan to move all international services to Zuid?
could just move Eurostar their ahead of time?

 

[43096]

isnt the long term Plan to move all international services to Zuid?
could just move Eurostar their ahead of time?

See post #5 above for that.

 

[biko]

isnt the long term Plan to move all international services to Zuid?
could just move Eurostar their ahead of time?

In the original plans Eurostar would have been moved to Amsterdam Zuid, but as the Zuidasdok project is delayed there's no space there for a secure boarding area

As Daniel said, it’s not possible due to delays with the project over there

 

[Citybreak1]

If it was suspended would they still call at Rotterdam and reverse back to London? Seems a waste to cut the service

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Seem a shame if it is true. Perhaps doing London to Rotterdam and return would be logical and possible. ?

 

[zwk500]

If it's only the secure boarding that's the problem then London to Amsterdam, service the set then Empty to Rotterdam to pick up the path would seem the most sensible way of at least keeping some presence in the market without losing paths/staff/customers. Although now that Thalys and Eurostar have merged, it may be simpler to just arrange for through-booking with guaranteed connections at Brussels.

 

[williamn]

Unfortunately no one aside from rail fans is interested in changing trains, it's a major disincentive to travel and would definitely lose customers.

 

[telstarbox]

Especially with such a comprehensive air service from UK airports to AMS. Hopefully they can find a temporary solution.

 

[185]

Tis a shame a 'shuffle' (get em off, check then back on) takes so long, a temporary solution could have been this at Bruxelles Midi, however from what I noticed this week, Midi even struggles with half empty trains.

40% of UK e-gates broken, Belgians taking 40s-1m 30 per passenger.

 

[AussieJasmin]

One thing really holding Eurostar back is the UK govts fetishization of security theatre. It hugely limits their potential destinations and kills a huge benefit of rail over air travel. There is a potential solution though, but would require govt sign off - run all Eurostar services travelling to the UK to run non-stop from the tunnel to London (which they're doing now anyway), and do the security dance upon arrival at St. Pancras. That way, Eurostar can just use regular platforms at Centraal, and also run to any number of destinations where they'd be demand. Since they're running non stop in the UK, there's no real-world impact on any real "border security" issues.

 

[zwk500]

One thing really holding Eurostar back is the UK govts fetishization of security theatre. It hugely limits their potential destinations and kills a huge benefit of rail over air travel. There is a potential solution though, but would require govt sign off - run all Eurostar services travelling to the UK to run non-stop from the tunnel to London (which they're doing now anyway), and do the security dance upon arrival at St. Pancras. That way, Eurostar can just use regular platforms at Centraal, and also run to any number of destinations where they'd be demand. Since they're running non stop in the UK, there's no real-world impact on any real "border security" issues.

The security threat is two-fold: a key reason for scanning baggage is the implications of an incident in the tunnel itself. For obvious reasons, that part of the check has to be conducted before travelling through.
You also lose a key advantage of Eurostar by adding an hour onto the advertised arrival time - being able to walk pretty much straight off the train is a very attractive part of the deal.

 

[Watershed]

One thing really holding Eurostar back is the UK govts fetishization of security theatre. It hugely limits their potential destinations and kills a huge benefit of rail over air travel. There is a potential solution though, but would require govt sign off - run all Eurostar services travelling to the UK to run non-stop from the tunnel to London (which they're doing now anyway), and do the security dance upon arrival at St. Pancras. That way, Eurostar can just use regular platforms at Centraal, and also run to any number of destinations where they'd be demand. Since they're running non stop in the UK, there's no real-world impact on any real "border security" issues.

Absolutely. Personally I'd have said that on-board passport checks would be the best option of all - but accepting that this is unlikely to materialise, I see no reason why rail travel should be treated differently from air travel in terms of having to "cross the border" prior to boarding. A simple check, as you get at airport gates, of holding a passport + boarding pass, should suffice.

As you say, this would significantly increase flexibility and thus allow such secondary flows as Cologne to London to have direct trains, where the border formalities currently serve as one of the primary obstacles to viability.

The security threat is two-fold: a key reason for scanning baggage is the implications of an incident in the tunnel itself. For obvious reasons, that part of the check has to be conducted before travelling through.
You also lose a key advantage of Eurostar by adding an hour onto the advertised arrival time - being able to walk pretty much straight off the train is a very attractive part of the deal.

Yet we have trains running through many other equivalent tunnels (e.g. the Gotthard Base Tunnel) without such ridiculous checks. It is security theatre - there is no logical way to defend it.

Timewise, it is six of one and half a dozen of the other whether the checks are conducted before departure or upon arrival. But there would be a significant advantage in that you would know you could simply turn up 5 minutes before departure and get on, like with most other trains.

 

[zwk500]

Absolutely. Personally I'd have said that on-board passport checks would be the best option of all - but accepting that this is unlikely to materialise, I see no reason why rail travel should be treated differently from air travel in terms of having to "cross the border" prior to boarding. A simple check, as you get at airport gates, of holding a passport + boarding pass, should suffice.

At airports, you have to show your passport to get your boarding pass at the check-in desk, so there are 2 opportunities to intercept people who shouldn't be travelling. Also, as checks are conducted upon arrival at Airports countries are generally more relaxed about who is leaving. I've never found the passport checks on Eurostar take particularly long per passenger - the bigger problem is normally there's only a handful of available booths. At Paris and Brussels they have the self-service gates which helps, but at St Pancras there seems to have been space set aside but the project never finished.

As you say, this would significantly increase flexibility and thus allow such secondary flows as Cologne to London to have direct trains, where the border formalities currently serve as one of the primary obstacles to viability.

Agreed.

Yet we have trains running through many other equivalent tunnels (e.g. the Gotthard Base Tunnel) without such ridiculous checks. It is security theatre - there is no logical way to defend it.

The Gotthard base tunnel is underneath land, and a single country so not the same. Although yes, the security is mostly theatre for the UK checks.

Timewise, it is six of one and half a dozen of the other whether the checks are conducted before departure or upon arrival. But there would be a significant advantage in that you would know you could simply turn up 5 minutes before departure and get on, like with most other trains.

This is a fair point.

 

[popeter45]

The Gotthard base tunnel is underneath land, and a single country so not the same. Although yes, the security is mostly theatre for the UK checks.

then what about the Seikan Tunnel?, or the upcomming Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link?

 

[Watershed]

At airports, you have to show your passport to get your boarding pass at the check-in desk, so there are 2 opportunities to intercept people who shouldn't be travelling.

A substantial proportion of people no longer go to check-in desks at all when flying, as they check-in online and have no checked luggage. There'd be no need to check the same thing twice with Eurostar - the only reason it happens at airports is that they want your hand luggage to go through security.

The sensible system would be to have you enter your passport details online as with airlines. Then have your passport checked at the ticket gates, akin to what happens at airport gates.

The Gotthard base tunnel is underneath land, and a single country so not the same. Although yes, the security is mostly theatre for the UK checks.

Ok, well then we can look at the Simplon or Brenner base tunnels, or any one of the tens of other shorter Alpine tunnels. Being underneath land makes very little difference in the event of an emergency. Passenger trains go through these tunnels without any sort of security check, and where passport controls are done it is on the train, after departure from the last stop in the previous country.

 

[zwk500]

A substantial proportion of people no longer go to check-in desks at all when flying, as they check-in online and have no checked luggage. There'd be no need to check the same thing twice with Eurostar - the only reason it happens at airports is that they want your hand luggage to go through security.

The sensible system would be to have you enter your passport details online as with airlines. Then have your passport checked at the ticket gates, akin to what happens at airport gates.

I agree online check-in would help.

Ok, well then we can look at the Brenner base tunnel or any one of the 5 other big trans-Alpine base tunnels. Passenger trains go through without any sort of check, and where passport controls are done it is on the train, after departure from the last stop in the previous country.

I never denied the security was theatre/paranoia, but was pointing out that part of that theatre is about checking before the tunnel. If the British Government got over itself and joined Schengen, it would be much better.

 

[Rhinojerry]

There is a cab ride on You Tube,which explains that ALL major trains will terminate one station before Centraal..Apologies cannot remember which driver..It is a fair way out also..

 

[telstarbox]

The security threat is two-fold: a key reason for scanning baggage is the implications of an incident in the tunnel itself. For obvious reasons, that part of the check has to be conducted before travelling through.
You also lose a key advantage of Eurostar by adding an hour onto the advertised arrival time - being able to walk pretty much straight off the train is a very attractive part of the deal.

Then why don't we also scan people at Markinch or Trowbridge who could do some damage on the Forth Bridge or Severn Tunnel?

 

[Trainbike46]

Then why don't we also scan people at Markinch or Trowbridge who could do some damage on the Forth Bridge or Severn Tunnel?

Please don't give the home office any ideas. I'm sure they would want to do exactly that

 

[Tester]

Then why don't we also scan people at Markinch or Trowbridge who could do some damage on the Forth Bridge or Severn Tunnel?

Diverting the Severn Tunnel trains through Trowbridge for the security check would be a right pain

 

[DanNCL]

then what about the Seikan Tunnel?, or the upcomming Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link?

The Seikan tunnel doesn’t have the same characteristics as the Channel Tunnel, as it has a large single bore and has two stations within the tunnel for evacuation direct to the surface unlike the channel tunnel, so the consequences of an accident would be different. It’s an equally impressive feat of engineering as the Channel tunnel.

There are no security checks to use the Shinkansen through the Seikan tunnel, it runs like any other Shinkansen service. The limited express services that previously ran through the tunnel were axed when the Shinkansen extension opened. Security I don’t think is considered to be as much of a risk in Japan as it is in Europe and the US, perhaps due to Japan’s low crime rate.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Yet we have trains running through many other equivalent tunnels (e.g. the Gotthard Base Tunnel) without such ridiculous checks. It is security theatre - there is no logical way to defend it.

There are trains running through the same tunnel where you probably won't get checked. You can even take a gun if you have the right paperwork: https://www.eurotunnelfreight.com/uk/safety-and-security/firearms-ammunition/

 

[DanielB]

There is a cab ride on You Tube,which explains that ALL major trains will terminate one station before Centraal..Apologies cannot remember which driver..It is a fair way out also..

Couldn't find anything on the channels of Dutch train drivers on Youtube I know about, but this is at least partially true.

On the eastern side of Amsterdam Central, also relevant to Eurostar as Watergraafsmeer yard is on that side of the station, a pretty big construction project is to be carried out. A dive under is being built here for the trains from Utrecht, to get a conflict-free corridor to Zaandam (in the current layout, Amsterdam - Zaandam conflicts with Amsterdam - Schiphol on the western side)
During certain phases of these works, trains from Utrecht will terminate at Amsterdam Amstel where a tailtrack is to be constructed for that purpose.

I'm not sure in what order the bridges on the eastern side are being rebuilt, but these works are also linked to the works on widening the platforms and the East tunnel.
The northernmost bridge is currently exclusively used for trains from the Watergraafsmeer yard to the station and back and when this one is replaced platform 15 (where the Eurostar lounge is located) will also be taken out of service. This is due to the fact that tracks 14 and 15 are built on a bridge located behind the remainder of the station. And when platform 14 is being widened, there will no longer fit two tracks on this bridge.

Details on what will happen in Amsterdam are also in this video by ProRail (in Dutch):