Eurostar possible expansion?

[Gadget88]

Eurostar bosses are planning to run high-speed trains to new further-away countries such as Italy, Spain and Portugal, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps revealed yesterday.

He said ministers are helping the company launch dozens of 'seamless' services from London to European cities and holiday destinations.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7967611/amp/Eurostar-bosses-eyeing-route-expansion-Spain-Italy-Portugal.html

An expansion to Germany was mentioned a few months back but never Italy Spain and Portugal?

 

[markymark2000]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7967611/amp/Eurostar-bosses-eyeing-route-expansion-Spain-Italy-Portugal.html

An expansion to Germany was mentioned a few months back but never Italy Spain and Portugal?

Geneva should be a busy one with 2.5m pax travelling by air to/from London each year.

I do hope Eurostar expands.

Given the current fleet utilisation, how easily can more routes be brought in using existing stock? Is there a lot of breathing space for more routes or are they going to need a lot more trains to fulfil these routes?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Lisbon will be an interesting challenge - a variable-gauge Eurostar? Seriously, I would have thought Cologne and Frankfurt are the obvious first targets.

 

[Ianno87]

Lisbon will be an interesting challenge - a variable-gauge Eurostar? Seriously, I would have thought Cologne and Frankfurt are the obvious first targets.

Cologne and Frankfurt seem obvious by virtue of veing able to extend existing Brussels services. May be a commercially prudent thing to do anyway if Brexit impacts the amount of London-Brussels business traffic.

French extensions are harder by virtue of the terminal nature of Gare du Nord, so a cross-Paris service cannot serve the Central Paris demand along the way.

 

[jon0844]

Cologne and Frankfurt seem obvious by virtue of veing able to extend existing Brussels services. May be a commercially prudent thing to do anyway if Brexit impacts the amount of London-Brussels business traffic.

French extensions are harder by virtue of the terminal nature of Gare du Nord, so a cross-Paris service cannot serve the Central Paris demand along the way.

Not necessarily a problem. No point running a train where loads of people alight at the same place a separate terminating train can go.

 

[Aictos]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7967611/amp/Eurostar-bosses-eyeing-route-expansion-Spain-Italy-Portugal.html

An expansion to Germany was mentioned a few months back but never Italy Spain and Portugal?

This is very good news but isn't the likes of Eastern Europe and the three above rather far from London? Why not extend Eurostar to Frankfurt, Cologne, Bordeaux, Strasbourg, Munich, Berlin etc in partnership with Thalys?

Given the current fleet utilisation, how easily can more routes be brought in using existing stock? Is there a lot of breathing space for more routes or are they going to need a lot more trains to fulfil these routes?

What's stopping them from ordering more Class 374s or when the merger with Thalys goes though from better fleet diagramming?

Lisbon will be an interesting challenge - a variable-gauge Eurostar? Seriously, I would have thought Cologne and Frankfurt are the obvious first targets.

Indeed a variable-gauge Eurostar should be considered but yes Cologne and Frankfurt should be first targets.

Cologne and Frankfurt seem obvious by virtue of veing able to extend existing Brussels services. May be a commercially prudent thing to do anyway if Brexit impacts the amount of London-Brussels business traffic.

French extensions are harder by virtue of the terminal nature of Gare du Nord, so a cross-Paris service cannot serve the Central Paris demand along the way.

With the French extensions could they not diagram the services as Via Paris Gare du Nord then reverse and head to French destinations?

 

[JonathanP]

I am pretty sceptical about all this.

"seamless" is not the same as "direct", and "Green Speed" is far as I know the name for the commercial merger of Thalys and Eurostar, not for a "mega-network" of direct trains. This wouldn't be the first time since that story broke that non-transport journalists have looked at an overlaid map of the Eurostar and Thalys and jumped to conclusions.

The current Eurostar sets are not equipped to operate in Germany(although they could be). Cologne station is bursting at the seams with traffic, so blocking off a platform for an hour or so to create the necessary "Cordon sanitaire" would be extremely difficult. Although theoretically split between infrastructure and operations, Deutsche Bahn still exhibits the kind of nasty behaviours you get from a nationalised railway that British people are bafflingly keen to return to, and it's hard to imagine them lifting a finger to help bring Eurostar services to Germany if it was to the detriment of their own Brussels - Cologne operations. One Thalys service mysteriously takes 50 minutes to get from Düsseldorf to Cologne instead of the normal 22 - for some reason these pathing problems never seem to happen to DB's own ICE services...

My opinion is the only workable solution for Cologne would be to build a small "Cologne International" station somewhere else, with just 2 platforms and all the necessary security setup, and link it via the S-Bahn to the main station.

Given that it's taken 25 years to get as far as Amsterdam, if there are direct eurostar services to Prague or Warsaw in my lifetime I will eat my proverbial hat. Currently there isn't even a train from Berlin to Prague(4hrs) that leaves after 5PM, or arrives before 10AM.

 

[bspahh]

With the French extensions could they not diagram the services as Via Paris Gare du Nord then reverse and head to French destinations?

Anything is possible, but the Eurostars to Marseilles don't do this. There are lots of other trains to and from Paris.

 

[Gadget88]

I am pretty sceptical about all this.

"seamless" is not the same as "direct", and "Green Speed" is far as I know the name for the commercial merger of Thalys and Eurostar, not for a "mega-network" of direct trains. This wouldn't be the first time since that story broke that non-transport journalists have looked at an overlaid map of the Eurostar and Thalys and jumped to conclusions.

The current Eurostar sets are not equipped to operate in Germany(although they could be). Cologne station is bursting at the seams with traffic, so blocking off a platform for an hour or so to create the necessary "Cordon sanitaire" would be extremely difficult. Although theoretically split between infrastructure and operations, Deutsche Bahn still exhibits the kind of nasty behaviours you get from a nationalised railway that British people are bafflingly keen to return to, and it's hard to imagine them lifting a finger to help bring Eurostar services to Germany if it was to the detriment of their own Brussels - Cologne operations. One Thalys service mysteriously takes 50 minutes to get from Düsseldorf to Cologne instead of the normal 22 - for some reason these pathing problems never seem to happen to DB's own ICE services...

My opinion is the only workable solution for Cologne would be to build a small "Cologne International" station somewhere else, with just 2 platforms and all the necessary security setup, and link it via the S-Bahn to the main station.

Given that it's taken 25 years to get as far as Amsterdam, if there are direct eurostar services to Prague or Warsaw in my lifetime I will eat my proverbial hat. Currently there isn't even a train from Berlin to Prague(4hrs) that leaves after 5PM, or arrives before 10AM.

Could always use Cologne Messe. Also they wouldn’t have to set down for one hour 5 mins like Lille as they would either go Thalys route to Dortmund or expand to Frankfurt. Frankfurt would be the end destination?

 

[BahrainLad]

Presumably new routes will only come once Eurostar has demonstrated to the relevant authorities in the four countries that the concept of having the Amsterdam-Brussels part of the service split between schengen/UK passengers in their own half of the train actually works on a sustained basis. If it does, it could open up more destinations in France (and remove the currently onerous Lille requirements).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Lisbon will be an interesting challenge - a variable-gauge Eurostar? Seriously, I would have thought Cologne and Frankfurt are the obvious first targets.

Spain's HS lines are mostly standard gauge, so there's no need for any extra technical jiggery-pokery to serve Madrid. Lisbon would be trickier, but my suspicion is that someone at the Daily Heil has misread a press-release.

 

[BahrainLad]

It was reported by the IRJ as being a comment from Shapps.

 

[Meole]

Flew business to and from Amsterdam yesterday ex Manchester, flying remains quicker and cheaper to Europe for most.

 

[paul1609]

Ive done Ashford International to Barcelona a couple of times by train but couldn't justify the huge premium for rail last year. Until that changes rail over long distances just won't be viable.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Still, the question of passport controls remains. There's no point in introducing direct connections if it's going to involve getting off the train in Lille.

I still think one simple and easy solution would be to agree with UK Border Force that Eurostar can conduct their own entry checks before boarding, with on-board UKBF checks taking place between Lille and Calais?

(About Geneva - can anyone confirm if any customs infrastructure remains there, or has it all been removed?)

 

[JonasB]

Still, the question of passport controls remains. There's no point in introducing direct connections if it's going to involve getting off the train in Lille.

I still think one simple and easy solution would be to agree with UK Border Force that Eurostar can conduct their own entry checks before boarding, with on-board UKBF checks taking place between Lille and Calais?

Is there any reason Eurostar can't do that? Airlines are allowed to do their own checks, so it doesn't sound that weird to allow Eurostar to do the same.

Personally though, I'd love to see Eurostar expand on the British side. But I guess there will be direct Eurostars to Tromsø before that happens

 

[jon0844]

Deutsche Bahn still exhibits the kind of nasty behaviours you get from a nationalised railway that British people are bafflingly keen to return to, and it's hard to imagine them lifting a finger to help bring Eurostar services to Germany if it was to the detriment of their own Brussels - Cologne operations. One Thalys service mysteriously takes 50 minutes to get from Düsseldorf to Cologne instead of the normal 22 - for some reason these pathing problems never seem to happen to DB's own ICE services..

It's a shame that DB had plans to run its own trains, even bringing one to St Pancras for a PR exercise, but has now gone silent on the issue. I assume they would have had a higher priority, but how would they have done it if the station is so busy?

 

[jon0844]

Ive done Ashford International to Barcelona a couple of times by train but couldn't justify the huge premium for rail last year. Until that changes rail over long distances just won't be viable.

I go to Barcelona every year and would love to go by train, at least one way. However, it is just too expensive in comparison to flying.

 

[urbophile]

I presume all these (proposed and conjectured) extra destinations would still start/terminate in London. Scandalous waste of an opportunity.

 

[30907]

I presume all these (proposed and conjectured) extra destinations would still start/terminate in London. Scandalous waste of an opportunity.

Given the security issues (even with Mr Shapps' help) Which destination would fill a train from Liverpool (or even Manchester?) and what rolling stock?
The same questions apply the other side of the channel, of course.

 

[GingerSte]

Given the security issues (even with Mr Shapps' help) Which destination would fill a train from Liverpool (or even Manchester?) and what rolling stock?
The same questions apply the other side of the channel, of course.

Using Eurostar's solution for Amsterdam (splitting the train into two sections) with one for Europe and one for London St Pancras (followed by London to Europe) would solve that issue. If you only have 6 or 8 coaches of a 374 to fill, that's a lot easier than filling all 16. With computers controlling the doors, that decision of 6, 8 (or 10) coaches for international passengers would be based on ticket sales.

You would need a way of getting passengers off at St P. I would suggest using platforms 5 and 6, with gates in the barrier line to allow domestic passengers out (before Europe) or in (after Europe). At the north end, you could have a bank of escalators down to concourse level.

I say platforms 5 and 6, as they would give the easiest access to the North London Line, from which the spur to HS2 could be built, and you could even serve somewhere on the WCML like Watford Junction. I've said before that you could drastically reduce the length of tunnelling for HS1-HS2 by tunnelling only from OOC to just west of Queens Park Station.



Back to Cologne, having visited there a few times (including last month), I say bring it on! If you are using the same splitting of trains as mentioned above, then you only need to partition off the end of a platform (5 or 6 at Cologne HBf). The rest of the island could remain open to passengers (including those to Aachen, Liege and Brussels). The platforms at Cologne do see a lot of use, but it's generally the central 200m or so. Most of the trains aren't long enough to occupy the full length of the platform. A quick look at Google Earth tells me that that Platform 5 is about 500m long, which is long enough for 2x7-car-ICE (2x202m) and a 100m long exclusion zone. That 500m doesn't include the little huts at the ends of the platforms, so there may be a little bit of wiggle room on that.

P5 and P6 could both be widened to make room for additional escalators from the customs checkpoint, but this may be difficult given the structural configuration. By my estimate, the iron columns that support that level are directly under the tracks. (I had a look for myself last month, wondering if it could easily be done.) Moving the tracks would cause massive shear forces (and moments) in the beams, which would require their replacement.

 

[paul1609]

Given that the Euro-skouse would have to be pathed in between the 10 min interval all stations North London Line service before a flat junction to St Pancras and the fact that most North London stations would have higher demand for a Paris service that Liverpool Euro-Skouse International anyway I suggest the following calling pattern Liverpool Euroskouse International to London Old Oak Common International, London Queens Park International, London Kensal Green international, London Kensal Rise International, London Brondesbury Park International, london Brondesbury International, London West Hampstead International, London Finchley Rd & Frognal International, London Hampstead heath International, London Gospel Oak International, London Kentish Town West International, London Cambden town International, London St Pancras International, Stratford Int, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford international and Paris North.
Contactless and Oyster would be available between OOC and Stratford at an enhanced rate but the use of stations with ticket barriers might discourage domestic traffic from Liverpool anyway??

 

[cle]

It'd go via Primrose Hill silly! But yep, I don't see anything north of London. Birmingham to Brussels would be the quickest pair, and I don't see the future post-EU demand.

I'm not sure every Brussels train will be extended to AMS due to paths and platforms, and the terminators are useful as the future 'slows' with Lille and Kent calls. But I could see 6-8 trains per day in time.

Hoping for Cologne and Frankfurt next, and Lyon/Geneva is often mentioned too - but the smart money is probably now Bordeaux, in a seasonal fashion to the Provence trains.

Those France/Swiss services could also offer a second Disney frequency - CDG I think of little interest, not even any business there as with Schiphol - and perhaps the original Disney service could be extend to stagger demand (one goes on to Bordeaux, the other to Lyon, within an hour of each other) - but I digress.

 

[Ianno87]

Not necessarily a problem. No point running a train where loads of people alight at the same place a separate terminating train can go.

That's the model they're following so far for France (as Paris trains fill themselves up easily by themselves), but lends itself more to once/twice daily through trains rather than anything more 'clockface'.

Other strategy, requiring new stock, would be to send combined trains to somewhere like Marne la Vallee (possibly marketed as a Paris Parkway type call) or Charles de Gaulle, an then split for (say) Strasbourg and Lyon.

This is very good news but isn't the likes of Eastern Europe and the three above rather far from London? Why not extend Eurostar to Frankfurt, Cologne, Bordeaux, Strasbourg, Munich, Berlin etc in partnership with Thalys?



What's stopping them from ordering more Class 374s or when the merger with Thalys goes though from better fleet diagramming?




Indeed a variable-gauge Eurostar should be considered but yes Cologne and Frankfurt should be first targets.



With the French extensions could they not diagram the services as Via Paris Gare du Nord then reverse and head to French destinations?

I suspect capacity on the approaches to Gare du Nord is not a trivial matter in accommodating services reversing in and out. I think the fast lines through St Denis are shared not only between LGV stuff, but also the classic intercités to places like Amiens, that carry on once the LGV diverges at Gonnesse.

Plus it's a long slow junction at Vémars to return south via the Interconnection - though it's grade separated, the slowing down required on the main line to use it is probably fairly capacity-hungry. Not to mention the journey time required - probably talking best part of an hour to deviate into Paris and out again.

 

[Ianno87]

Hoping for Cologne and Frankfurt next, and Lyon/Geneva is often mentioned too - but the smart money is probably now Bordeaux, in a seasonal fashion to the Provence trains.

Those France/Swiss services could also offer a second Disney frequency - CDG I think of little interest, not even any business there as with Schiphol - and perhaps the original Disney service could be extend to stagger demand (one goes on to Bordeaux, the other to Lyon, within an hour of each other) - but I digress.

It does seem logical to me to make London - Marne into a 'regular' service, then use this as a basis for extensions to various destinations in France / Switzerland.

 

[Richard Scott]

(About Geneva - can anyone confirm if any customs infrastructure remains there, or has it all been removed?)[/QUOTE]
Nothing that I could see last time I went there.

 

[GingerSte]

Given that the Euro-skouse would have to be pathed in between the 10 min interval all stations North London Line service before a flat junction to St Pancras and the fact that most North London stations would have higher demand for a Paris service that Liverpool Euro-Skouse International anyway I suggest the following calling pattern Liverpool Euroskouse International to London Old Oak Common International, London Queens Park International, London Kensal Green international, London Kensal Rise International, London Brondesbury Park International, london Brondesbury International, London West Hampstead International, London Finchley Rd & Frognal International, London Hampstead heath International, London Gospel Oak International, London Kentish Town West International, London Cambden town International, London St Pancras International, Stratford Int, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford international and Paris North.
Contactless and Oyster would be available between OOC and Stratford at an enhanced rate but the use of stations with ticket barriers might discourage domestic traffic from Liverpool anyway??

Snark aside, cle has already mentioned that it would be the Primrose Hill route. If you separated the Primrose Hill amd Kentish Town routes at Camden Road (see below), then all of your NLL worries disappear and you only have the freights to the WCML to deal with. One or two trains per hour (max) could deal with that.



The Skouse lot might find it a bit far on the train, but the Brummie lot (3 times more of them and half the distance from London) might not. From Birmingham, Brussels would be less than 3 hours and Paris about 3.5 hours. Amsterdam and Cologne would be about 4.5-5 hours, but most of the passengers wouldn't be making the full trip. Passengers would alight and be replaced at London and Brussels.

And that's before Old Oak Common adds a potential market from the GWR. A single change at OOC would sound much better for the Thames Valley lot than schlepping up to St Pancras.

 

[Bald Rick]

We’ve done all this before, on other threads, that I can’t be bothered to find.

The only realistic additional direct Eurostar services would be from London to Frankfurt via Köln, Geneva via Paris (Interconnexion), summer seasonal services to Bordeaux (with a big trundle around Paris), and possibly another ski train or two to Lyon / Grenoble. A remote possibility, at a stretch, of Zurich.

Anywhere further than this is too far to be competitive on time or price. And very few places have sufficient passenger volume. Bear in mind that London-Paris used to be the busiest international city pair for air travel in the world, whilst London-Amsterdam is now the busiest in Europe. Unless the city pair has at least 10 return flights a day, it’s not going to work for a new daily service.

Re Geneva; I wonder if the customs / security issue could be solved by using the airport station and their border facilities. The airport station is right by the French sector of the airport.

Re services to France - one thing to bear in mind is that the LGV SE is at capacity. The current resignalling will add a further 2tph, but SNCF will understandably want them to go on high value / volume services. London - Geneva could just make it, perhaps 2 return trips a day, with an extra couple on winter Saturdays for skiing. (I personally only know two or three hundred people who would use that!)

 

[AlbertBeale]

It'd go via Primrose Hill silly! But yep, I don't see anything north of London. Birmingham to Brussels would be the quickest pair, and I don't see the future post-EU demand.

I'm not sure every Brussels train will be extended to AMS due to paths and platforms, and the terminators are useful as the future 'slows' with Lille and Kent calls. But I could see 6-8 trains per day in time.

Hoping for Cologne and Frankfurt next, and Lyon/Geneva is often mentioned too - but the smart money is probably now Bordeaux, in a seasonal fashion to the Provence trains.

Those France/Swiss services could also offer a second Disney frequency - CDG I think of little interest, not even any business there as with Schiphol - and perhaps the original Disney service could be extend to stagger demand (one goes on to Bordeaux, the other to Lyon, within an hour of each other) - but I digress.

I thought through London-Bordeaux services were already effectively agreed and being planned?

For north-of-London through trains to Pars/Brussels - do they have to go near St P? Is there no way of using the link to the outside world at Stratford Int (albeit with a reversal there), and Londoners heading to the continent who find Stratford easier than central London could join while the train was there (space for infrastructure for international screening etc is already there. isn't it?). And there are other, more circuitous, ways of linking to the line to the tunnel - and slower connections from elsewhere wouldn't matter so much for sleeper services. I'm sure there'll be a market before long for overnight trains from other parts of Britain to Paris/Brussels.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought through London-Bordeaux services were already effectively agreed and being planned?

For north-of-London through trains to Pars/Brussels - do they have to go near St P? Is there no way of using the link to the outside world at Stratford Int (albeit with a reversal there), and Londoners heading to the continent who find Stratford easier than central London could join while the train was there (space for infrastructure for international screening etc is already there. isn't it?). And there are other, more circuitous, ways of linking to the line to the tunnel - and slower connections from elsewhere wouldn't matter so much for sleeper services. I'm sure there'll be a market before long for overnight trains from other parts of Britain to Paris/Brussels.

No, Bordeaux services are not agreed or planned. They were merely suggested as a possibility by HS1 Ltd, not by any train operator. I would be surprised if Eurostar hadn’t had at look at the potential though.

There is no connection beteeen HS1 and the NR Network at Stratford / Temple Mills. Even if there were, it wouldn’t be usable by Eurostars, as the West Anglia Main Line is at full capacity with trains to Liverpool Street and Stratford.

Finally, as explained on several previous threads, whilst there might be a market (demand side) for some overnight trains through the tunnel, there is no one willing to subsidise them to the tune of several hundred pounds per passenger to make them remotely attractive on a price basis.