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Eurostar Thalys merger?

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Cloud Strife

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there's also the matter of establishing customs facilities and having a "sterile" area at those station served by any extended or new services.

The "Sterile" area can be easily created in most places, but the border controls issue remains. Logically, something like this could work:

UK->Mainland Europe - both exit and entry customs and passport controls carried out in St Pancras, by the UK and France (on behalf of other countries).
Mainland Europe->UK - exit controls carried out on board between Lille Europe and Calais Frethun. French police can be accompanied by UKBF officers, with difficult cases taken off the train at Calais-Frethun for further inspection. The vast majority of passengers won't need secondary control, and controls can be easily carried out through the use of portable hardware, as is done on many other European cross-border trains.

This means that there's only a need for sterile areas, but having the infrastructure at the entrance to a specific platform doesn't mean it has to be used 24/7.
 
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JonathanP

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Mainland Europe->UK - exit controls carried out on board between Lille Europe and Calais Frethun. French police can be accompanied by UKBF officers, with difficult cases taken off the train at Calais-Frethun for further inspection. ... controls can be easily carried out through the use of portable hardware, as is done on many other European cross-border trains.

Can they? Then why don't they do it already, instead of the expensive and difficult arrangement of out-basing UKBF officers in France and Belgium?

We have to be realistic that what is acceptable to all other European countries is not acceptable to the border authorities in "Fortress Britain", and that is not going to change. Given the long saga of migrants in Calais attempting to avoid claiming Asylum in France in favour of Britain, it's not entirely unjustified.

The new portable passport scanners are good though - I saw them recently when entering Ukraine from Poland on a sleeper train and it's a great time saver compared to taking away everyone's passport to be scanned in an office elsewhere.
 

coppercapped

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Can they? Then why don't they do it already, instead of the expensive and difficult arrangement of out-basing UKBF officers in France and Belgium?

We have to be realistic that what is acceptable to all other European countries is not acceptable to the border authorities in "Fortress Britain", and that is not going to change. Given the long saga of migrants in Calais attempting to avoid claiming Asylum in France in favour of Britain, it's not entirely unjustified.

The new portable passport scanners are good though - I saw them recently when entering Ukraine from Poland on a sleeper train and it's a great time saver compared to taking away everyone's passport to be scanned in an office elsewhere.
To expand on your remark about migrants and asylum seekers part of the reason for the frontier controls is that there are some fundamental differences in the way that the state relates with its population. In the UK it is not necessary to register one's address with the local authorities whereas in most, if not all, of the countries within the Schengen area, this is a legal requirement together with each individual being issued with an ID card of some sort[1][2].

The Schengen agreement generally allows nationals of the countries making up the area free passage of the borders but when in another country the individuals have to carry the identification required by that country for its own citizens.

The UK does not require its citizens to carry identity papers of any kind and as states generally have the right to refuse entry for certain categories of people the only place where identity papers of people coming from abroad can be checked is at the frontier.

Until the UK introduces a requirement for its citizens to carry ID, thus meaning that ID checks can be made anywhere within the country at any time, then the frontier controls will, as you suggest, remain.

[1] The nearest the UK gets to requiring an address to be registered is that sub-set of people holding a driving licence - any changes have to be promptly notified to the DVLA.
[2] Some years ago - about the time the Schengen arrangement was being discussed - I heard someone[3] saying that this difference was due to the state being seen in the UK as a construct which was intended to serve the people and in other places the people were to serve the state.
[3] Unfortunately I can't remember who it was or where it was said, but it was some form of public meeting.
 

Roast Veg

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The merger has been on the cards for some time. I expect Lyria will join also at some stage bearing in mind they have recently restructured their classes of service to match Eurostar (Standard, Standard Premier, & Business Premier).
The current merger may be to facilitate pathways (which they currently compete for) on the high speed lines, platform access, and to make connections between Eurostar & Thalys easier.
Eurostar is changing to a new ticketing system this year and it is known that DB will not be able to book through tickets because of the change. So by merging with Thalys, you get a company that can book through to Germany offering tickets on their own system. Direct London-Köln services at a later date... possibly.
I find a potential merger with Lyria interesting - it could mean through ticketing to Bern and Zurich from London which would be very nice in the non-interrail friendly parts of Western Europe. Operationally it doesn't seem to make nearly as much sense as E*/Thalys, but a business merger would produce quite the route map, at least according to https://en.oui.sncf/sites/default/files/images/carte_generale_en_0.jpg
 

duncombec

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That's partly why I suggested Ashford as an extension of TGV Nord. At present the Ashford service is poor, which unless I am mistaken is because of the time it takes a Eurostar to negotiate the awkward track layout to call at the station, which makes scheduling stops there difficult. A TGV service terminating there could operate at a more attractive frequency, which would improve connections to and from Paris with local SouthEastern services (especially to and from Canterbury, an important tourist destination and Dover which is becoming a major cruise port) and Southern's Ashford - Brighton services. And Ashford - Brussels would be an easy change at Lille-Europe. There might even be a case for an occasional Ashford - Brussels - Amsterdam Thalys.

Eurostar services at Ashford were reduced when Ebbsfleet opened, which means for a good number of people in Kent we have to travel (by car or train) in the opposite direction (towards London) to pick up Eurostar to then go back past where they started. The North/South public transport connections in Kent are not spectacular (essentially a change of station at Canterbury to the other side of the city and some), which also encourages travel back to Ebbsfleet - and if you are not on the High Speed services, Central London.

As as result, it is quite a novel idea - I quite like it, although it is probably too 'forward thinking' for those in charge - and perhaps an overall restructuring of services would be possible, with a "fast" Eurostar and a "semi-fast" TGV (for want of better description - Eurostar local?) serving other locations. Could such an idea also see services stopping at Stratford International at long last? If not, that station really ought to be renamed - Stratford (High Speed)? - but that's not really a discussion for this thread.
 

S-Car-Go

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a "semi-fast" TGV (for want of better description - Eurostar local?) serving other locations. Could such an idea also see services stopping at Stratford International at long last? If not, that station really ought to be renamed - Stratford (High Speed)? - but that's not really a discussion for this thread.
There is something similar to that with Thalys. IZY stops in more stations, uses less high speed line, takes longer (& they use some repurposed TMSTs). But super low budget prices. Maybe they'll adopt that with the merger? An omnibus service that has limited tickets from St Pancras, and more availability from Stratford/Ebbsfleet/Ashford etc. Relieves STP from overcrowding & boosts footfall at the underused stations.
 

cle

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There was always talk of a commuter service for Calais and Lille - this could well be that.

It's like the Shinkansen classes of service - Nozomi, Hikarie etc - nothing new under the sun. And enables a premium, faster category for the main cities, which in the case of Brussels, would be the ones which continue onwards to Amsterdam and potentially Germany.
 

Cloud Strife

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Can they? Then why don't they do it already, instead of the expensive and difficult arrangement of out-basing UKBF officers in France and Belgium?

I have no idea. The external EU border is mostly guarded that way (with some small exceptions), and it seems to work fine. If a stop in Calais was scheduled to remove anyone dubious, then the vast majority of passengers could be processed on-board without problem. It's surely not beyond the competence of the UK to do a detailed check of the train within half an hour, after all.

I think the biggest problem is that there's no trust in the French authorities to actually conduct proper exit controls. I remember talking to a Border Force officer in Calais about the way that the French PAF exit checkpoint was unmanned when I crossed the border there as a foot passenger (towards the UK), and he said that they had real problems with it, particularly if someone appeared to be illegally in Schengen.

The new portable passport scanners are good though - I saw them recently when entering Ukraine from Poland on a sleeper train and it's a great time saver compared to taking away everyone's passport to be scanned in an office elsewhere.

Yup, they save a lot of hassle, though on the Wrocław/Warszawa-Lviv sleeper train, I wish they'd take the passports away rather than waking people up in the middle of the night ;)

Still, the most hassle I've experienced was between Terespol (PL) and Brest (BY). You need to realistically be at the Polish border crossing in the international station at Terespol half an hour before departure, then the train takes 20 minutes, then at least half an hour to clear Belarusian border control. The stations are a handful of km apart...
 
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