Eurostar : Why are there no speed and distance in UK measurements?

[MarkyT]

Change is fine as long as it isn't imposed without consent. We were never asked if we wanted these fundamental changes that altered out lives quite significantly. The arguments for and against should have been put to us and the people should have been allowed to decide rather than just bury the history and individuality of a nation for the sake of a bureaucrats 'project' - or is democracy only applicable if those running the 'project' win?

Standardisation saves bureaucracy, so if it's being imposed by bureaucrats they are doing at least some of themselves out of their jobs.

 

[Struner]

Hopefully it was actually overnight otherwise there would have been some awful crashes.
[...]

All is explained in the wikipedia lemma. & you'll find out something about referenda as well

 

[MarkyT]

All is explained in the wikipedia lemma. & you'll find out something about referenda as well

Swapping driving side in UK or any other developed country with a big road network would be immensely difficult today. Modern intersections are typically not symmetrical, with more incoming lanes than outgoing, so significant reconstruction would be required, and signalisation is more common than in the 1960s, and much more sophisticated. Sweden made their decision at just the right time really before the roads became more complicated, and on balance it made sense with the multiple border connections of any mainland country. Many nations that drive on the left are islands like UK and Japan and do not face the same problems. While there's an appreciable number of left driving countries, manufacturers will continue to produce cars for them. Common designs are usually made to be easily adaptable with a left or right 'kit' employed in assembly to place the driving position on the appropriate side.

 

[Struner]

So the Swedish government at the time had a long term vision. Somewhat unusual for governments . I remmber seeing Swedish LHD cars in NL but never thought much about it - until I came to Gothenburg & saw them driving on the wrong side of the road

 

[87electric]

Railway bridge distance signs are in miles and chains, like my bashing records.

 

[AM9]

The problem is that when the British Government decided to go metric they did not use the same system that the rest of Europe uses. The above answer referes to centimetres yet a centimetre is not a recognised unit of measurement in this country. The only official units of measurement for length in the UK are millimetres, metres and kilometres. I used to work for a glass processing company which imported glass sheets size 6m x 3.2m form Belgium. We used to specify 6,000mm x 3200mm but all the paperwork which came back from Belgium said 600cm x 320cm. ...

The UK (rightly) chose the current metric model, I.e. the MKS rationalised SI system. This is based on the metre, kilogram and second units, (also the Ampere, Kelvin and Candela for electrical current, temperature and luminous intensity) respectively. The whole system goes well beyond just length, weight etc., for instance, a litre is the volume of a 0.1m cube and that volume of pure water weighs1kg.*
Virtually every unit of measurement is defined in terms of the fundamental base SI units and most of them as as an integer power of 10. Where a measurement is much greater or less than the base unit, it is generally expressed in 10^3 steps,I.e. 1000 or 1/1000, hence mm, m & km. Some long-term metric using countries have been slow to adopt the standards which were set in 1960, e.g. Belgium still using cm.
* These equivalents are specified at certain temperature and atmospheric pressures as required.

 

[edwin_m]

Anyone remember decimetres and dekametres? I think I had all the details printed on my ruler at school. if you do, can you put your hand on your heart and confidently say which one was 10m and which was 0.1m?

Then again things like centimetres and litres are in common usage because they are convenient sizes for measuring everyday things. Wine bottles always seem to be in centi-litres for some reason.

 

[MarkyT]

Railway bridge distance signs are in miles and chains, like my bashing records.

And a chain is just a little larger than 20m, so it's almost metric as it is already! Many European railways have distance markers every 200m (approx 10 chains). Our 1/4 mile posts are approximately 400m (20 ch) apart. Metric already! Many mile posts do not actually delineate an accurate mile or fractions thereof, as tracks may have been slewed, junctions moved etc. So a good surveying system needs to record the exact distance between them as measured along each track and a notional alignment centre line between mile and quarter mile posts. If this data is held in metres then the system has been effectively converted to metric, and quarter mileposts are simply recategorised as numbered datum points approximately 400m apart and all that historic information and signage doesn't need to be altered at all.

 

[axlecounter]

The UK (rightly) chose the current metric model, I.e. the MKS rationalised SI system. This is based on the metre, kilogram and second units, (also the Ampere, Kelvin and Candela for electrical current, temperature and luminous intensity) respectively. The whole system goes well beyond just length, weight etc., for instance, a litre is the volume of a 0.1m cube and that volume of pure water weighs1kg.*
Virtually every unit of measurement is defined in terms of the fundamental base SI units and most of them as as an integer power of 10. Where a measurement is much greater or less than the base unit, it is generally expressed in 10^3 steps,I.e. 1000 or 1/1000, hence mm, m & km. Some long-term metric using countries have been slow to adopt the standards which were set in 1960, e.g. Belgium still using cm.
* These equivalents are specified at certain temperature and atmospheric pressures as required.

I’m sorry, but where does this talk about cm come from? The metre is the standard SI unit, which can then be combined with all the SI prefixes. Hence cm.

 

[Western Lord]

Swapping driving side in UK or any other developed country with a big road network would be immensely difficult today. Modern intersections are typically not symmetrical, with more incoming lanes than outgoing, so significant reconstruction would be required, and signalisation is more common than in the 1960s, and much more sophisticated. Sweden made their decision at just the right time really before the roads became more complicated, and on balance it made sense with the multiple border connections of any mainland country. Many nations that drive on the left are islands like UK and Japan and do not face the same problems. While there's an appreciable number of left driving countries, manufacturers will continue to produce cars for them. Common designs are usually made to be easily adaptable with a left or right 'kit' employed in assembly to place the driving position on the appropriate side.

Sweden is much smaller in population (and thus car ownership) than the UK and was even smaller in 1967. For several years Swedish cars had been left hand drive and so, with the relatively low traffic volumes of the time, the conversion was relatively easy (though I am not sure how they managed with buses). To even think about changing sides in the UK would be madness. Somebody posted earlier that cars would be cheaper, presumably believing that they are converted from left hand drive after production. This is, of course, not the case, as mentioned above. All cars these days are designed for production in RHD or LHD and come down the same production line in either form. Most cars built in the UK are actually LHD for export.
Of course, it is not just on the roads that we "drive" on the left, but on railways too. I presume that there is no great interest in Europe in standardising the side of running on double track lines.

 

[MarkyT]

...the conversion was relatively easy (though I am not sure how they managed with buses)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H
Wikipedia states:

Trams in central Stockholm, in Helsingborg and most lines in Malmö were withdrawn and replaced by buses, and over one thousand new buses were purchased with doors on the right-hand side. Some 8,000 older buses were retrofitted to provide doors on both sides, while Gothenburg and Malmö exported their right-hand drive (RHD) buses to Pakistan and Kenya. The modification of buses, paid by the state, was the largest cost of the change.

Of course, it is not just on the roads that we "drive" on the left, but on railways too. I presume that there is no great interest in Europe in standardising the side of running on double track lines.

None whatsoever as far as I know. There are a number of left hand running systems on the continent. Originally all LHR, Austria is mixed today as a result of the remodelling and signalling modernisation carried out by the Germans when they were in control, but they didn't manage to convert the whole network. The Nazis incidentally also forced Austrian roads to switch from LHD to German standard RHD.

 

[axlecounter]

Anyway with modern signalling systems left or righthand running in railways is more and more losing meaning. Lines are very easily made bi-directional.

 

[Groningen]

Do you know how many countries us miles instead of kilometers? USA, UK and Zimbabwe. Get a life!

 

[swt_passenger]

There will come a point, within about 20 years, when everyone alive that was taught imperial measurements will be drawing their state pensions. At that point there will be no excuse not to go metric on road signs. It will be quite an exercise (as Ireland found out).

My mother (b.1929) used to get quite annoyed if people suggested she probably didn’t understand metric units. She always said metric weights and measures were routinely taught in schools in the 1930s, and she thought this was done across the entire country.

 

[swt_passenger]

I’m sorry, but where does this talk about cm come from? The metre is the standard SI unit, which can then be combined with all the SI prefixes. Hence cm.

Before the standardisation on the metre kilogram second (MKS) derived units, there was a centimetre gram second (CGS) system of derived units. My secondary school science subjects (1966 on) were taught in the CGS “system”.

 

[AM9]

I’m sorry, but where does this talk about cm come from? The metre is the standard SI unit, which can then be combined with all the SI prefixes. Hence cm.

The official metric system in Europe, (including the UK since 1965) is MKS rationaslised SI, which means metres (M), kilogrammes (K) and seconds (S). Previouslythe metric world was using the CGS system, i.e. centimetre (C), gramme (G) and seconds (S). So any use of centimetres is effectively obsolete but unfortunately, still used today by dinosaurs and those who can't count to 1000. Even Belgians, from the home of the EU are not entirely free of people who insist on using obsolete measurement systems.

 

[AM9]

Before the standardisation on the metre kilogram second (MKS) derived units, there was a centimetre gram second (CGS) system of derived units. My secondary school science subjects (1966 on) were taught in the CGS “system”.

As your secondary education was after 1965, the school clearly failed in their role to educated pupils about the metric system, (unless of course it was as a part of the history curriculum ).

 

[axlecounter]

The official metric system in Europe, (including the UK since 1965) is MKS rationaslised SI, which means metres (M), kilogrammes (K) and seconds (S). Previouslythe metric world was using the CGS system, i.e. centimetre (C), gramme (G) and seconds (S). So any use of centimetres is effectively obsolete but unfortunately, still used today by dinosaurs and those who can't count to 1000. Even Belgians, from the home of the EU are not entirely free of people who insist on using obsolete measurement systems.

Thank you. Didn’t know about the CGS.
Still, the cm is, to my knowledge, a perfectly acceptable use of the SI base unit (metre) with a recognised SI prefix (centi), so that I can’t see what’s prehistoric in using centimetres: you might have a measurement units prejudice there.
Besides, it is often much more practical using cm instead of mm...

 

[DavidGrain]

I was taught metric at primary school in the first half of the 1950s. Unfortunately they couldn't teach me to spell.

Anyone remember decimetres and dekametres? I think I had all the details printed on my ruler at school. if you do, can you put your hand on your heart and confidently say which one was 10m and which was 0.1m?

Yes I can tell you the difference because the prefix is Latin for below the basic unit and Greek for above the basic unit. Can't remember what 100m is though.

 

[radamfi]

Thank you. Didn’t know about the CGS.
Still, the cm is, to my knowledge, a perfectly acceptable use of the SI base unit (metre) with a recognised SI prefix (centi), so that I can’t see what’s prehistoric in using centimetres: you might have a measurement units prejudice there.
Besides, it is often much more practical using cm instead of mm...

Scientific and technical publications will almost exclusively use mm instead of cm. Centimetres can of course be used informally, just like inches and miles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_prefix

Prefixes corresponding to an integer power of one thousand are generally preferred. Hence '100 m' is preferred over '1 hm' (hectometre) or '10 dam' (decametres). The prefixes hecto, deca, deci, and centi are commonly used for everyday purposes, and the centimetre (cm) is especially common. However, some modern building codes require that the millimetre be used in preference to the centimetre, because "use of centimetres leads to extensive usage of decimal points and confusion"

 

[Groningen]

Remember also the battle between Fahrenheit and Celsius. What is wrong that when it is freezing it is minus and above 0 plus. Remember that USA/Europe mission in space. They mixed the km/miles up and the probe crashed! I cannot imagine that both km and mile markers are next to the HSL track!

 

[dutchflyer]

For a continental person this all looks quite amusing.
BUT: as being a general ''transport-enthusiast'' interested in timetables, I recall that it was thought to be of excessive difficulty for British people to get a grasp of the 24 hr clock in lieu of AM/PM? I still have a few very old NBC-time busbooks that showed the timings in such format.
So why does €* not accustomize to those people who must make out a sizeable proportion of their esteemed customer base?
Or: why do they publish train nrs and not ''the 2.34 PM from L to B'' has been cancelled en also runs late by approx 68 minutes?

 

[AM9]

Remember also the battle between Fahrenheit and Celsius. What is wrong that when it is freezing it is minus and above 0 plus. Remember that USA/Europe mission in space. They mixed the km/miles up and the probe crashed! I cannot imagine that both km and mile markers are next to the HSL track!

Celsius is more rational than Fahrenheit as science and engineering universally uses Kelvin for cryogenic measurement and often, temperatures are expressed in K when whole ranges that span 0 are involved. I wonder if there a few die hards still use reaumur values?

 

[SHD]

This reminds me of Richard Littlejohn’s or Peter Hitchen’s rants. Are you seriously complaining that the in-coach current speed display of the Eurostar requires you to use your multiplication and division capabilities?

And if kilometres mean nothing to you, how do you cope with travelling, let alone driving, abroad?

 

[Struner]

[...]
And if kilometres mean nothing to you, how do you cope with travelling, let alone driving, abroad?

Don't think the OP would consider it - but he seems to have removed quite a few of his posts?

 

[JonasB]

When I first went to Sweden in 1979, people were taking in 'Swedish Miles'. I was on a coach which I was told would be a 3 mile journey. It turned out to be a 30km ride. I have been many time to Sweden since but have not heard that term used again. However Wikipedia says that the Swedish tax authorities still use it for calculating business mileage allowances.

The mil (10 km) is still used a lot when referring to longer distances. I don't think any Swede will say that the distance between Stockholm and Oslo is about 500 km, it is about 50 mil. It is also used in Norway and to some extent in Finland.

And it is a very old unit. There used to be many differnent mils in Sweden, but in 1649 the mil was standardized as 18.000 aln (3.600 rods or 6000 fathoms), or in modern units 10.688,54 metres. In 1889, when Sweden switched to the metric system it was redefined as 10.000 metres.

 

[notverydeep]

I have always wondered whether road distances shown on signs as yards are actually metres, particularly where they have been installed since the 1960s and 70s. Are the count down markers on motorways really yards?

My biggest annoyance in this subject is that US spell checkers (sometimes including the one this forum uses) have the gall to insist on silly spellings of units they don't use.

My work in train planning is all metric, except for having to convert imperial distances from ancient signalling plans. I assume even these will be redundant once resignalling is finished. Then there will only be the few bits that run onto the other railway...

 

[Groningen]

@dutchflyer: if you have the time and you are lucky than you find in the timetable of the buscompany Greyhound in North America (not the dogs) no bus is departing at 0.00 am and 0.00 pm (12 hours in the 24 hours system). It might confuse travelers. Am has light; pm has bold figures. I see that the UK is still using the am/pm system.

 

[Class 466]

It might be acceptable but our vehicles measure MPH and our road signs are in miles - KM means nothing to me - I have to do the calculation to miles for it to actually mean something.

All units on HS1 operate on Kilometres per hour as that’s the way the in cab signalling works, and the line itself is measured in kilometres rather than miles.

Think it’s about time we standardised it all with Europe. Then there would be no need to convert it

 

[43096]

For a continental person this all looks quite amusing.
BUT: as being a general ''transport-enthusiast'' interested in timetables, I recall that it was thought to be of excessive difficulty for British people to get a grasp of the 24 hr clock in lieu of AM/PM? I still have a few very old NBC-time busbooks that showed the timings in such format.

The Americans still can’t cope with the 24hr clock, with the result that it requires more effort to understand timetables for a European used to the simplicity and logic of the 24hr system.