Euston-Lancaster diagrams

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by newWCMLwatcher, 8 Nov 2019.

  1. newWCMLwatcher

    newWCMLwatcher Member

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    I've often wondered why there have been services allocated to shorter or cut-short journeys'

    EUS - LAN early in the evening such as 17:57 Lancaster. Why just LAN?

    A few years ago, and I'm sure most people won't remember it, there was an hourly service from Euston to Glasgow at 23 past the house, with the following exceptions: 13:29 Lancaster. 14:28 Lancaster. 15:23 returned to Glasgow Central.

    This was about 2004-maybe 2005. Definitely when the class 90s were in operation as I was on one and we got looped (14:28 service - a voyager came past).

    The only surviving terminating service to this day is the 20:16 to Lancaster
     
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  3. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    Firstly, demand and rolling stock supports an hourly service from Euston to Glasgow so no services in the standard pattern need to now terminate at Lancaster.

    The 1757 is an additional service to the standard pattern and the unit goes to Longsight depot after arriving at Lancaster so to balance stock it can't really go any further. Presumably there are demand and operational reasons for it to run to Lancaster rather than just Preston.
     
  4. newWCMLwatcher

    newWCMLwatcher Member

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    Does anyone know why previously from Preston the following services terminated at Lancaster:

    13:23 Lancaster
    13:29 Lancaster
    14:28 Lancaster
    15:23 Lancaster

    I cant remember the year but these are absolutely true.
     

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  5. HamworthyGoods

    HamworthyGoods Member

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    Because (excluding Glasgow suburbia) Lancaster is the biggest settlement between Wigan and Glasgow served by the WCML (yes it has more population than Preston) so it was felt it deserved a near hourly service to London by extending the previously Preston terminators (which in days of old used to be Blackpool terminators).

    Wigan population 326k
    Lancaster population 144k
    Preston population 141k
    Carlisle population 108k
     
  6. adamedwards

    adamedwards Member

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    Also big University at Lancaster, which I assume generates business.
     
  7. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    The pattern for many years (pre-Virgin) was a 2-hourly Glasgow service, with a Preston/Lancaster/Blackpool in the gaps, giving an hourly Euston-Preston.
    The Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh was also 2-hourly so there was generally an hourly train north of Crewe/Preston (plus a few from Manchester).
    Blackpool was cut around 2000 and the trains sent to Lancaster instead.
    All these services are now hourly to Scotland, plus a couple of peak extras to Preston/Lancaster (and Blackpool is now back).
    The old Glasgows (and some of the Birminghams) didn't stop at Warrington or Wigan, while the Lancs terminators did.
    Oxenholme and Penrith were also often omitted.
     
  8. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    It's a railhead for a fairly sizeable area around, plus connections to Morecambe, Barrow etc.

    It's a case of running to Preston as that's where the denand is, but the marginal extra cost of running to Lancaster being relatively low (so you might as well for the extra revenue generated), but any further would be too costly (i.e. stock cycling as alluded to above, or use of Preston/Manchester based crew)
     
  9. Iskra

    Iskra Established Member

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    There is strong demand to Lancaster, which also offers connections for the Furness Line, Cumbrian Coast, Morecambe Line, Windermere Line and the Bentham Line.

    After Lancaster there is no significant population centre until Carlisle on the WCML. It's also easy to turn around a pendo at Carnforth, so operationally convenient.

    There used to be an extra Lancaster-London service too in the morning when I lived in Lancaster, but I don't know if there still is.

    Personally, I like these oddball services.

    Are there any VT trains that don't stop at Lancaster these days? I remember the Royal Scot in the days of VT 86/87/90 used to omit Lancaster?
     
  10. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    No, all Virgin services stop at Lancaster now, since the 1630 Euston-Glasgow became standard pattern in 2014/15 or so. A couple of Up trains were non-stop until about 2013 or so (which was a quirk of the 1030, 1230 and 1430 terminating at Lancaster until the Pendolino fleet was expanded.

    Only Northern Windermere services and (possibly?) the odd TPE now don't stop.
     
  11. Freightmaster

    Freightmaster Established Member

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    According to RTT, several are booked to pass in the current TT - here are the ones which ran
    yesterday for example:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...00-2359?stp=WVS&show=pass&order=actual&toc=VT


    Still runs:
    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P59079/2019-11-08/detailed




    MARK
     
  12. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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  13. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    There also used to be some Carlisle starters/terminators in the old timetable.
    Like most of the Lancaster terminators, they disappeared when the Glasgow service went hourly (which was when the 4 extra 390s arrived in 2012).
     
  14. Wilts Wanderer

    Wilts Wanderer Established Member

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    It was much earlier than 2000. Regular Blackpool-Euston trains were lost in about 1993, during the recession when many other marginal IC routes (Shrewsbury, Middlesbrough etc) were culled as a cost-saving exercise. Prior to Virgin the infill services just ran to Preston, however around 1997-98 VT introduced a 1035 Euston-Blackpool using an HST set which was a relief to the 1030 Euston-Glasgow Royal Scot which was non-stop to Preston.
     
  15. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    No, the Carlisle terminators ended with the Dec 2008 timetable change. The present 0428 Glasgow-Euston is effectively what used to be the Carlisle starter (and an evening peak service terminated to form it the next morning).
     
  16. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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  17. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    The 17:57 Euston to Lancaster used to run to Glasgow Central until a few years ago.

    I wonder whether there would be a value in returning it to Glasgow with a balancing service operating in the evening between Glasgow and either Manchester or Crewe, thence to Longsight instead of the current Lancaster train.
     
  18. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    I don't really understand the question. Where does the current timetable leave gaps? The 1030 and 1330 services from London Euston on weekdays do omit Lancaster. Should the latter have the stop at Oxenholme or Penrith withdrawn and replaced with one at Lancaster? Does the former need an extra couple of minutes to stop there? An open question I think. It's also true that the 1200, 1400 and 1600 services from Glasgow towards Birmingham don't serve Lancaster. Presumably there's some timing reason for this. Two trains one way and three the other is probably not going to make a massive difference. There's one TransPennine Express train to Edinburgh (1007 from Manchester Airport) that doesn't stop, but to add a stop would almost certainly impact on the journey time for Manchester to Edinburgh passengers. A proposed Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central service doesn't call, leaving Preston at 0901, but that is probably because it is followed 3 minutes later by a service that does call. A further southbound TPE service passes Lancaster some time after Midnight, which is presumably when the station is closed and it can't call.

    With respect to the 1757, there have been calls for it to be withdrawn between Preston and Lancaster and to run to Blackpool North instead. These have instead been answered by extending the 1846 London Euston to Preston service to Blackpool North, although sadly that runs Fridays only.

    There have also been calls for it to be extended to Glasgow Central, as the 1657 from London has done for years. This year, on Friday 20th December, the train will do just that, running as 1Z94, calling additionally at Oxenholme Lake District, Carlisle and Glasgow Central. The change is being made on a handful of other days too. The balance working leaves Edinburgh (not Glasgow) for Preston at 2049.

    Following the expansion of Northern's timetable in July this year, there are more trains than ever before between Preston and Lancaster, and Lancaster enjoys more through trains to Manchester. There is only one change which I believe is needed urgently, which is to add Lancaster calls on all Windermere services which pass through it. I have heard (but don't know for sure) that this will be addressed in due course. It is a hangover from the withdrawal of the fast rolling stock that previously operated them.
     
    Last edited: 9 Nov 2019
  19. GW43125

    GW43125 Established Member

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  20. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    I think the OP is asking why WC trains terminate/d at Lancaster, rather than complaining about gaps.
     
  21. newWCMLwatcher

    newWCMLwatcher Member

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    Sorry! I should have been clear, I can see how my post lacks clarity.

    I was asking about trains terminating at Lancaster from Euston and what reason would be behind it. I also forgot to mention that I was referring to Preston as the departure station about 10 years ago when the WCML services set off at XX:23 the hour.

    I always thought of Preston as being the termination point but as people have rightly pointed out there are more people living in Lancaster and other connections to consider which I hadn't even thought about. I just found it strange to have Euston-Glasow all day with a few Euston-Lancaster services dotted in the middle and what their purpose was. There used to be a 22:26 departure from Preston to Carlisle and I can understand why it would finish there being late in the day, but wasn't sure about why earlier trains would only make it to Lancaster and why. Must have been based on passenger demand surely?
     
  22. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

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    In the original VHF timetable launched in 2008 both the 16:57 & 17:57 (SX) off Euston ran through to Glasgow. This however only lasted 2-3 years after which the 17:57 was cut back to Lancaster. This may have been around the time the Anglo-Scottish service was ramped up to all day hourly.
     
  23. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Seems strange that Virgin don't run these two trains all the time. 18:52 from Edinburgh seems somewhat early.
     
  24. voyagerdude220

    voyagerdude220 Established Member

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    More recently before all the xx30 departures during the day from London Euston ran to Glasgow Central, the 10:30/12:30/14:30 used to only run as far north as Lancaster.

    Their return workings from Lancaster at roughly 13:39/15:39 allowed the train running from Glasgow at the time (11:40/13:40) to miss out Lancaster, Wigan and Warrington- thus making them none stop from Preston.

    The 14:30 used to be a 5-car Super Voyager, returning from Lancaster 17:35 ish, but called at Wigan and Warrington as there wasn't a 15:40 departure from Glasgow at the time.
     
  25. voyagerdude220

    voyagerdude220 Established Member

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    Agreed and I also think it's ridiculous that the last weekday direct train from Birmingham to Preston is 19:15. I wonder why the 21:15 departure was changed a while ago to terminate at Crewe. This also slows down the 20:30 Euston to Preston, which calls additionally at Stafford to pick up pax from the aforementioned 21:15 departure from Birmingham New Street.
     
  26. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    Presumably it was realised passenger demand can be accommodated on only one train, and passengers from Birmingham are capable of changing. Getting the 2115 to terminate at Crewe possibly makes a difference to what can be done to it overnight on depot.

    No point running two trains north of Crewe purely for the niceness of direct trains.
     
  27. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

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    All fair points. But, it rather rubs salt into the wound of there being no practical alternatives between the 1915 and 2115 departures. And yet there is then a 2157 departure offering northward connection at Stafford. Oh for a Taktfahrplan!
     
  28. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    You need to change at Stafford to connect to the 2030 London Euston to Preston service, the 2115 departure from Birmingham New Street now goes via Stoke-on-Trent, so doesn't make it at Crewe.
     
  29. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

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    There where a couple of Glasgows that where accelerated up road missing out Wigan/Warrinton thus arriving Euston xx01 rather than xx11. I sort of hoped that was the ultimate goal to speed up others during the day but never happened.
     
  30. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    That was true for the return workings of the 1030 and 1230 (that enabled acceleration of, I think, the 1140 and 1340 ex-Glasgow), but not for the 1430... that effectively picked up the would-be Glasgow return working of the 1030 (that now forms the 1540 - which the 1430 instead essentially turned short at Lancaster to form)
     
  31. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    The train goes back to Oxley, so if it went further north it'd have further to come back. No need if there is a connecting train.

    Previously the Voyagers ended at Crewe as it was easier to get them back to Central Rivers.
     

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