Euston overcrowding

[Bletchleyite]

It's weird. Architecturally I quite like Euston, and thought the old Euston looked like a rather poor cousin of King's Cross and St Pancras

I didn't actually mind it at all until recentish changes in the way it was operated (most notably suppression of local service platforms, which hasn't always been the case) made it unpleasant. The loss of the main departure board was the icing on the cake.

Harking back to the old Great Hall makes little sense - it was barely big enough to be the first class lounge, maybe a quarter of the size of the present (inadequate) concourse. I think people imagine it being like New York's Grand Central or something which is vast, but it wasn't. Its location would also have maxed out local trains at 4 car by preventing platform lengthening - imagine that!

 

[thomalex]

I didn't actually mind it at all until recentish changes in the way it was operated (most notably suppression of local service platforms, which hasn't always been the case) made it unpleasant. The loss of the main departure board was the icing on the cake.

Harking back to the old Great Hall makes little sense - it was barely big enough to be the first class lounge, maybe a quarter of the size of the present (inadequate) concourse. I think people imagine it being like New York's Grand Central or something which is vast, but it wasn't. Its location would also have maxed out local trains at 4 car by preventing platform lengthening - imagine that!

The Great Hall was built before anyone really knew how railways would work. It was designed partially as a waiting room for well healed passengers catching the short train that would depart from the one platform and as an office building with board room to impress. While it is easy to say now it should never have been demolished it was never designed as a station building in the modern (well 1850s onwards) sense and sat in the middle of the station so it's hard to practically see how it could have been retained.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Great Hall was built before anyone really knew how railways would work. It was designed partially as a waiting room for well healed passengers catching the short train that would depart from the one platform and as an office building with board room to impress. While it is easy to say now it should never have been demolished it was never designed as a station building in the modern (well 1850s onwards) sense and sat in the middle of the site so I can see why they did.

Indeed, I looked at a plan earlier and the grand staircase was basically only for access to the boardroom - passengers would never have used it.

Short of relocating it, it had to be demolished - it was right in the way of 12-car local platforms. To give the uninitiated a guide, the Doric Arch - the rather monstrous* entrance to the old Euston - was roughly half way down the 8-11 ramp - Network Rail put up some stickers showing where a while back, I think one is still there if you look.

* Yes, I think it was horribly ugly. The present station is hardly pretty, but I don't get why people hark back to it.

 

[Richardr]

With a primarily leisure railway? Some random week in October or February I reckon.

Thameslink is closed south of Harpenden through to St Pancras (plus the core) for much of this Christmas engineering, isn't that primarily a commuter railway especially in October and February?

 

[sh24]

Agreeing with others, the old Euston was wildly impractical and not really that appealing either. The main departure hall space inside the current station is great, light and airy, but badly let down by the ramps and platforms themselves...as well as the operational side itself.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Agreeing with others, the old Euston was wildly impractical and not really that appealing either.

Is there any station on the GB network which still partly resembles the old Euston, before it was then "improved"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any station on the GB network which still partky resembles the old Euston, before it was then "improved"?

Leeds' food concourse is as close to the Great Hall as I've seen, though I think the Leeds one is somewhat longer. Indeed perhaps Leeds as a whole, with its slightly hotchpotch layout, is comparable generally?

I suspect it looked a bit more like a smaller version of the utter rathole that is Paris Nord, if you've been there?

If you say improved in quotes, then you've definitely got rose-tinted spectacles on - old Euston would never have coped with the modern-day service, not even close. It would only have been even vaguely viable if the whole local service had been removed to a second Thameslink, but even then it would have struggled and some IC trains would have had to be a lot shorter than now.

 

[Turtle]

Leeds' food concourse is as close to the Great Hall as I've seen, though I think the Leeds one is somewhat longer. Indeed perhaps Leeds as a whole, with its slightly hotchpotch layout, is comparable generally?

I suspect it looked a bit more like a smaller version of the utter rathole that is Paris Nord, if you've been there?

If you say improved in quotes, then you've definitely got rose-tinted spectacles on - old Euston would never have coped with the modern-day service, not even close. It would only have been even vaguely viable if the whole local service had been removed to a second Thameslink, but even then it would have struggled and some IC trains would have had to be a lot shorter than now.

Article just appeared in today's Guardian re danger of Euston overcrowding.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you look back to the 1960s plans and PR bumpf that British Railways issued (document hosted by the Barrowmore Model Railway Group) you can really see the aesthetic they were going for.

Sadly, as was so often the case with 1960s architecture, it was done badly and on the cheap, and then wasn't looked after properly.

I remember Michael Palin being scathing about Euston when he did his first railway travelogue back in the early 80s, likening it to a plughole. It's fair to say the place hasn't improved much. Nowhere to sit, nowhere to rest, and nowhere to keep the long-distance passengers (who will by necessity arrive in good time for their train) well away from the commuter passengers.

 

[Mikey C]

Indeed, I looked at a plan earlier and the grand staircase was basically only for access to the boardroom - passengers would never have used it.

Short of relocating it, it had to be demolished - it was right in the way of 12-car local platforms. To give the uninitiated a guide, the Doric Arch - the rather monstrous* entrance to the old Euston - was roughly half way down the 8-11 ramp - Network Rail put up some stickers showing where a while back, I think one is still there if you look.

* Yes, I think it was horribly ugly. The present station is hardly pretty, but I don't get why people hark back to it.

The disgrace was dumping the stones from the Doric Arch in a canal, rather than either rebuilding it in front of the modern station (by the Euston Road) or in a park.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The disgrace was dumping the stones from the Doric Arch in a canal, rather than either rebuilding it in front of the modern station (by the Euston Road) or in a park.

I'm not sure it's a loss. The two gatehouses look nicer to be honest. The principle I get, but it really was monstrously ugly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you look back to the 1960s plans and PR bumpf that British Railways issued (document hosted by the Barrowmore Model Railway Group) you can really see the aesthetic they were going for.
Sadly, as was so often the case with 1960s architecture, it was done badly and on the cheap, and then wasn't looked after properly.
I remember Michael Palin being scathing about Euston when he did his first railway travelogue back in the early 80s, likening it to a plughole. It's fair to say the place hasn't improved much. Nowhere to sit, nowhere to rest, and nowhere to keep the long-distance passengers (who will by necessity arrive in good time for their train) well away from the commuter passengers.

The current 1960s Euston was built a little earlier than Heathrow T1 and shared some of its design features (and was built by the same contractors, Taylor Woodrow).
Heathrow T1 closed in 2015, with a completely new terminal planned.
Meanwhile Euston soldiers on with its inadequate capacity and layout, compromised by the HS2 development next door which has limited NR's scope to make immediate improvements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The current 1960s Euston was built a little earlier than Heathrow T1 and shared some of its design features (and was built by the same contractors, Taylor Woodrow).
Heathrow T1 closed in 2015, with a completely new terminal planned.
Meanwhile Euston soldiers on with its inadequate capacity and layout, compromised by the HS2 development next door which has limited NR's scope to make immediate improvements.

Just imagine were a new Euston as transformatory as Heathrow Terminals 2 and 5 have been? I used to avoid Heathrow, now I actively choose it.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Article just appeared in today's Guardian re danger of Euston overcrowding.

Quote from the article;

“The site at Euston station was farmland before its construction, opening in 1837. It now serves more 40 million passengers a year - more than twice the number for which it was designed, according to the government.

A Network Rail spokesperson said: “Euston was designed for a different era and we acknowledge that it is in need of major investment and modernisation.

I know it’s the declining standard of journalistic writing, but this makes it sound like the (pre)Victorians designed a station for 20 million passengers per year. The single arrival and departure platforms, and the cable-hauled incline to Camden, would be rather busy!

 

[TheSmiths82]

Quote from the article;



I know it’s the declining standard of journalistic writing, but this makes it sound like the (pre)Victorians designed a station for 20 million passengers per year. The single arrival and departure platforms, and the cable-hauled incline to Camden, would be rather busy!

I did read it that they meant the 1960's station but then I know the history of it so it was probably just confirmation bias on my part. I agreed with the article though. Also why haven't people picked up on the fact the new display shows "Next train to Manchester" but most people won't be getting the next train, they will be getting a specific train that their advanced single entitles them to. Whoever designed that new display board has probably never paid for a long distance train ticket in their entire life.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Agreed, this is also where train numbers European-style would help matters as well.

 

[Trackman]

Leeds' food concourse is as close to the Great Hall as I've seen, though I think the Leeds one is somewhat longer. Indeed perhaps Leeds as a whole, with its slightly hotchpotch layout, is comparable generally?

I suspect it looked a bit more like a smaller version of the utter rathole that is Paris Nord, if you've been there?

If you say improved in quotes, then you've definitely got rose-tinted spectacles on - old Euston would never have coped with the modern-day service, not even close. It would only have been even vaguely viable if the whole local service had been removed to a second Thameslink, but even then it would have struggled and some IC trains would have had to be a lot shorter than now.

I have a book about it somewhere, seemed when it first opened they knew they were in trouble as it wasn't big enough and had to make improvements.

 

[Bald Rick]

With a primarily leisure railway? Some random week in October or February I reckon.

The MML is not a primarily leisure railway. Not by any stretch.

 

[Route115?]

Is one of the problems that people tend to arrive very early if on advance tickets owing to to the penal penalties charged for missing the specified train? There may be ways around this (you can always join the first train but trains at peak times are more expensive) but this is for the Speculative Discusssion forum.

The other issue, of course, is the number of passengers. You can check for delays before leaving but delays can quickly disappear and I would still set out if delays are reported if I had an advance ticket. What this means is that crowds will quickly build up if trains stop departing. What is needed is additional holding areas but where? I don't see a simple solution.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

If only a mezzanine could be added above the platforms for departures.....platforms are too narrow for stairs/escalators I guess.

 

[Beebman]

I was listening to LBC Radio last night and there was a 30-second report on the 10pm news about the access problems at Euston which included Gareth Dennis speaking. This is the link on Global Player:

https://www.globalplayer.com/catchup/lbc/uk/episodes/2zGy29CY5wZYcQfuq9qovv7rNa/

The report runs from 00:01:54 to 00:02:24. (Note that LBC content is only archived for 7 days and if you access the link on a phone you might find yourself being asked to install the Global Player app.)

 

[bleeder4]

Article just appeared in today's Guardian re danger of Euston overcrowding.

It's in today's Times paper as well. It's been getting decent coverage this week in the mainstream media.

 

[quantinghome]

Leeds' food concourse is as close to the Great Hall as I've seen, though I think the Leeds one is somewhat longer. Indeed perhaps Leeds as a whole, with its slightly hotchpotch layout, is comparable generally?

Leeds northern concourse is a 1930s Art Deco classic so not really the same. And it actually functions as a concourse, as a opposed to the Great Hall which was... just kinda there.

Leeds station is an amalgamation of two older stations hence the odd layout.

 

[Tetchytyke]

London Travlewatch have added their observations.

Euston station overcrowding - London TravelWatch

London TravelWatch statement on ongoing issues at Euston Station Even on good days, the passenger experience at London Euston fails to match its importance as the capital’s main rail gateway to four of the UK’s largest cities. But it is when train services are disrupted that the station really...

www.londontravelwatch.org.uk

London TravelWatch has met with Network Rail regarding these issues, yet passengers are still having to rush to platforms due to last minute announcements, staff appear overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of people involved and the recently-installed information screens seem to have done little if anything to make things better for passengers when services are disrupted.

It is almost a year since the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) issued an improvement notice to Network Rail regarding the station, but it seems little has changed. We are also very concerned that the situation will only worsen if new operators are successful in their recent applications to run additional services from the station, or if any of the current operators that run out of Euston increase their service frequency.

Incredibly, the ORR closed its improvement notice following actions taken and commitments made by Network Rail. In May, the Transport Select Committee asked Network Rail for further detail on these actions, which aim to improve the management of passenger flows at Euston. These details now need to be published and reviewed as a matter of urgency in the light of the latest events at the station.

Is one of the problems that people tend to arrive very early if on advance tickets owing to to the penal penalties charged for missing the specified train?

Absolutely it is. Euston's biggest weakness is that there is nowhere for these people to wait, so they all just loiter in the concourse.

This used to be the same issue at Kings Cross before the redevelopment. The solution is to separate arrival and departure flows, as they have at Kings Cross. At the very least they could fence off a corridor at both sides of the concourse so that arriving passengers don't have to elbow their way out through a massive crowd.

Putting a roof over the benches in the square outside would be a good start too, at least people could sit out there all the time, not just when it was dry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This used to be the same issue at Kings Cross before the redevelopment. The solution is to separate arrival and departure flows, as they have at Kings Cross. At the very least they could fence off a corridor at both sides of the concourse so that arriving passengers don't have to elbow their way out through a massive crowd.

Separating flows would help, but it wouldn't be "the solution" as it's not the main problem. Euston's passenger (rather than train) flows are notoriously peaky - far more arrivals in the morning peak, far more departures in the evening peak.

Going back to the old departure board location (or switching to a single board roughly in the middle) would clear the sides better. They only started being obstructed when the idiotic new boards were installed.

Theoretically having the left facing the station (booking office side) as entrance only and the right facing it as exit only might provide a small improvement but it would be very hard to enforce given the passenger volumes, and regulars do what they want, not follow signs (see also pretty much all "no entry" signs on the Tube).

 

[AndrewE]

If only a mezzanine could be added above the platforms for departures.....platforms are too narrow for stairs/escalators I guess.

When I spent a lot of time working at Euston there was the Parcels Deck above the town end of the platforms. It felt big and high, at that time it had a temporary building on it to house staff decanted in turn out of the rest of the offices whille the original building was "renovated!"
I have been wondering whether it could be adapted as a departure lounge with escalators inserted to get down to the platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I spent a lot of time working at Euston there was the Parcels Deck above the town end of the platforms. It felt big and high, at that time it had a temporary building on it to house staff decanted in turn out of the rest of the offices whille the original building was "renovated!"
I have been wondering whether it could be adapted as a departure lounge with escalators inserted to get down to the platforms.

I've thought that, but I suspect the platforms are too narrow at that point for it to be workable without creating other dangers a la Liverpool Central Low Level where the escalators block the platforms at key points, causing their own risk.

I think the principle is right, but you'd probably want to rebuild to wider platforms (which would be possible without losing any - you could instead lose the stabling roads and wasted space on 1-3). It's also a long way from the main concourse (over the outer end of the station) so you'd need to extend it towards the present concourse.

 

[HSTEd]

You'd have to pull the building apart to change the platform widths given the number of support columns. At that point you are doing most of the work necessary for a total reconstruction and you may as well go all the way.

 

[AndrewE]

You'd have to pull the building apart to change the platform widths given the number of support columns. At that point you are doing most of the work necessary for a total reconstruction and you may as well go all the way.

Good point. I was thinking it wouldn't be too difficult seeing how how Liverpoool Lime St was rearranged...

 

[stuu]

I'm at Paddington this evening, they have announced several times that "staff monitor boarding, there is no need to run", which I haven't heard before. Could it be that NR are paying attention to the media?