Euston overcrowding

[Tezza1978]

The single 10-column ‘Solari’ departure indicator, flanked by massive illuminated advertising displays, usually promoting cigarettes, could sometimes only show around 25-30 minutes ahead, so some destinations were ‘invisible’ at any given moment. There could still be a build-up of (say) Holyhead or Glasgow passengers awaiting news of their train.
I don’t remember ever waiting ‘on the platform’.

​

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.... = the more things change, the more they stay the same!

 

[LocoForLocos]

Surely the #1 issue is that trains are having no turnaround time at platforms. Best way to increase that is to buy a bit more rolling stock, and free up some platform capacity.

Obvious candidates would be to move the DC line to terminate at Primrose Hill (maybe Highbury & I in the longer term) and the North Wales service to Clapham J

 

[modernrail]

I used Euston a lot in the mid-1970s, for both InterCity; what we used to call ‘residential’ services towards Bletchley and Northampton; and the DC. This period saw the launch of the Electric Scots and greatly enhanced residentials.

The single 10-column ‘Solari’ departure indicator, flanked by massive illuminated advertising displays, usually promoting cigarettes, could sometimes only show around 25-30 minutes ahead, so some destinations were ‘invisible’ at any given moment. There could still be a build-up of (say) Holyhead or Glasgow passengers awaiting news of their train.
I don’t remember ever waiting ‘on the platform’.

You mean these relatively small dimly lit advertising displays?

(Photos show size of advertising screens from 1970’s against recent advertising screens)

 

[Horizon22]

Surely the #1 issue is that trains are having no turnaround time at platforms. Best way to increase that is to buy a bit more rolling stock, and free up some platform capacity.

Obvious candidates would be to move the DC line to terminate at Primrose Hill (maybe Highbury & I in the longer term) and the North Wales service to Clapham J

They definitely do have decent turnaround times - it wouldn't be a feasible inter-city timetable without it.

A key problem is the late boarding of services adding extra anxiousness and hence the "rush" which leads to a feeling of safety concerns

 

[modernrail]

They definitely do have decent turnaround times - it wouldn't be a feasible inter-city timetable without it.

A key problem is the late boarding of services adding extra anxiousness and hence the "rush" which leads to a feeling of safety concerns

I wouldn’t say it is a feeling of safety concerns. They have had to put up signs to say don’t run. The only reason running is necessary is because you get the madness of sometimes 5-6 minutes to get to the platform from announcement. Now they have added the 2 minute lock out, which the gate staff absolutely relish implementing, you can easily end up missing your train if you don’t run. If you are on an Advance, the Avanti staff will relish charging you an open fare to catch the next train.

If you do make it onto the platform, you will often face a train without reservations working, and so perhaps a 4 hour stand.

So it’s pretty serious for the passenger. Run, or face a £100, £200 bill, or maybe stand the whole way. All because management at Euston can’t run a station properly.

It’s really simple. Longer to board, seat reservations that work, gateline staff properly trained with the attitude removed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean these relatively small dimly lit advertising displays?

(Photos show size of advertising screens from 1970’s against recent advertising screens)

The more recent orange LED display was wider than the old Solari display (solving the "not enough panels" issue which the new boards have broken again) so just had one "poster format" LED advertising board at each end. They were quite bright but not disruptive like this new monstrosity.

(Between the Solari and the LED board it had the same type of very-distinctly-1990s yellow on black LCD display as Manchester Piccadilly had, which was I think the same width as the later LED display).

I wouldn’t say it is a feeling of safety concerns. They have had to put up signs to say don’t run. The only reason running is necessary is because you get the madness of sometimes 5-6 minutes to get to the platform from announcement. Now they have added the 2 minute lock out, which the gate staff absolutely relish implementing, you can easily end up missing your train if you don’t run. If you are on an Advance, the Avanti staff will relish charging you an open fare to catch the next train.

I didn't think about that, but it's certainly true that their attitude is part of the issue. There's often a queue to get past them (rather than a gateline where it isn't really an impingement) and I too have the impression that they'd very much enjoy, given their general attitude, pulling the shutters down (metaphorically) with a queue still there.

That said, the only boarding checks you get on LNR are the 8-11 gateline, "off platform" departures aren't checked except very occasional* revenue stings, and the problem is as bad, quite possibly because *nobody* has a seat reservation, as they don't really work on commuter operations. (In the early days of the Birminghams they were tried, but it was just constant arguments and was very quickly binned).

* I think I've seen it about twice in all the time I've been using the station, which included nearly 2 years of daily commuting.

 

[Horizon22]

I wouldn’t say it is a feeling of safety concerns. They have had to put up signs to say don’t run. The only reason running is necessary is because you get the madness of sometimes 5-6 minutes to get to the platform from announcement. Now they have added the 2 minute lock out, which the gate staff absolutely relish implementing, you can easily end up missing your train if you don’t run. If you are on an Advance, the Avanti staff will relish charging you an open fare to catch the next train

Yes what I'm saying is that because of these actions, it leads to a rush for some and then others see rushing and its self-fulfilling behaviour. No other terminus operates like this (excepting times of moderate/major disruption) and it is an incredibly simple operational fix to allow most trains to be advertised in good time.

 

[Dr Hoo]

You mean these relatively small dimly lit advertising displays?

(Photos show size of advertising screens from 1970’s against recent advertising screens)

The advertising displays were (collectively) larger than the Departure indicator, even just to the left. (There were six Arrivals columns on the right, I think, which were possibly a bit disproportionate.) The adverts weren't particularly bright but remember that the Solaris relied on ambient illumination falling on the front. They could also get grubby and had to be dusted regularly. Each pair of boards could be rotated to clean it from behind. A lot depended on whether it was dark outside and no light was coming onto the concourse from the clerestory windows.

Given advances in film technology and generally greater levels of lighting everywhere I'm not sure that comparisons are particularly meaningful after 50 years.

 

[Lockwood]

All the talk of running to get seats... Am I doing things wrong on trains?

I always work on the assumption that I will not have a seat, especially on long distance services, even if I have a reservation.

It tends to make the experience better if you go in with low expectations. Stuff is more likely to improve and surprise you from there

 

[Harpo]

All the talk of running to get seats... Am I doing things wrong on trains?

I always work on the assumption that I will not have a seat, especially on long distance services, even if I have a reservation.

It tends to make the experience better if you go in with low expectations. Stuff is more likely to improve and surprise you from there

You may well have described why so many choose the car over the train!

 

[The Planner]

Surely the #1 issue is that trains are having no turnaround time at platforms. Best way to increase that is to buy a bit more rolling stock, and free up some platform

Eh?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Eh?

There is a slight logic fail there, yes. Longer turnarounds means more rolling stock and more platforms!

On that point incidentally, I wonder how Euston compares to a major European terminal in terms of platform occupancy and frequency of arrivals/departures vs number of platforms. I reckon somewhere like Paris, Frankfurt or Milan, you’d be looking at 25-30 platforms to service the same number of trains.

 

[nlogax]

I always work on the assumption that I will not have a seat, especially on long distance services, even if I have a reservation.

Maybe that lowering / removal of expectation works for you but how depressing that this is now an approach passengers feel they need to adopt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe that lowering / removal of expectation works for you but how depressing that this is now an approach passengers feel they need to adopt.

If I had to operate on that assumption I would cease rail travel.

Fortunately I've had a seat on well over 99% of journeys over the last few years. Unsurprisingly the only one I haven't in recent years was...wait for it...XC! (I avoid them like the plague, but sadly they are the only TOC stopping at Burton on Trent; they were used for as short a component of that trip as possible!).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is a slight logic fail there, yes. Longer turnarounds means more rolling stock and more platforms!

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Euston is currently shown by Network Rail as having 16 platforms - and I believe that's a temporary reduction (from 18?) due to HS2 construction works. I also believe Euston normally has about 9tph Avanti, 7tph WMT, 4ph Overground, making 20tph. The Overground doesn't need long turnarounds, so let's say 14 platforms for the 16tph non-Overground trains. That's not that far off enough platforms to theoretically allow each service to dwell for almost an hour in a perfectly running timetable.

Granted you need some slack to allow for disruption etc., but how on Earth is that not enough platforms to allow decent dwell times?

 

[nlogax]

If I had to operate on that assumption I would cease rail travel.

Yes, same!

Out of hundreds of WCML journeys I've taken from Euston over the years I've only been without a seat two or three times, and one of those was a screw-up on Avanti's part for which I still have some compensatory credit to use.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

There is a saying; "As an ally to speed, fear has it over rage". I would suggest therefore that Euston station invests in a couple of tigers, which they keep caged and then release two minutes before a train's departure time. The risk of being eaten by the tigers will encourage passengers to run quicker, which will speed up boarding times substantially and ensure a punctual departure.

I can't think why Network Rail haven't already considered this option.

 

[Mikey C]

I wouldn’t say it is a feeling of safety concerns. They have had to put up signs to say don’t run. The only reason running is necessary is because you get the madness of sometimes 5-6 minutes to get to the platform from announcement. Now they have added the 2 minute lock out, which the gate staff absolutely relish implementing, you can easily end up missing your train if you don’t run. If you are on an Advance, the Avanti staff will relish charging you an open fare to catch the next train.

And it's quite a trek to reach the front of the platform if that's where your seat reservation is. If you don't have time to reach the front carriages, having to squeeze through an entire cramped Pendolino from the back is a very unpleasant alternative.

 

[LocoForLocos]

So if trains are sitting in platforms for ages, what reasoning can they possibly give for only boarding 5 mins before?


Perhaps I applied too much logic to the situation!

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Euston is currently shown by Network Rail as having 16 platforms - and I believe that's a temporary reduction (from 18?) due to HS2 construction works. I also believe Euston normally has about 9tph Avanti, 7tph WMT, 4ph Overground, making 20tph. The Overground doesn't need long turnarounds, so let's say 14 platforms for the 16tph non-Overground trains. That's not that far off enough platforms to theoretically allow each service to dwell for almost an hour in a perfectly running timetable.

Granted you need some slack to allow for disruption etc., but how on Earth is that not enough platforms to allow decent dwell times?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And it's quite a trek to reach the front of the platform if that's where your seat reservation is. If you don't have time to reach the front carriages, having to squeeze through an entire cramped Pendolino from the back is a very unpleasant alternative.

Come to that, on Avanti, it's a bit of a trek from the concourse even to reach the nearest not-first-class carriage

 

[Harpo]

Private Eye 11 October, Page 30, bottom left, an advert-

‘Euston Station Rocket Roller Skates…..’

‘……..Worried about not getting to your train in the 30 seconds between the platform being announced and departure?……….’

Etc….

Maybe descent into national joke status will encourage meaningful change?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if trains are sitting in platforms for ages, what reasoning can they possibly give for only boarding 5 mins before?

Perhaps I applied too much logic to the situation!

There are slightly more constraints than that, for instance some of the platforms (principally 9 and 10) are short and can't be used by Pendolinos at all, and 11 car Pendolinos don't fit the other short ones (2 I think plus 5, 6, 9, 10 and 13, 14). And the Cally can only use 1 or 12 if I recall as these are the very long ones.

It mostly seems to be that they prefer to fully clean and service the train before calling it. If they'd just bring it in, tip it out, lock the doors bar the crew ones and call it, people wouldn't all go down at once (if you have a reservation why go and stand by a train for half an hour when you can go for a wee and get your M&S banquet in in that time?). Similarly with WMT, if (aside from the Crewe) there were always two Birminghams shown as available* at once when they're physically there, which they often are, people would go to them in dribs and drabs (and some might choose the later one for better pick of the seats).

It was also mentioned above that WMT services aren't generally called until the platform staff are present, so one sensible change, if that is a safety/security requirement**, would be to have one TOC dispatch for the whole station regardless of whose trains it is, and have a dispatcher permanently allocated to each platform group so they are always there unless they've briefly popped away for the loo or something.

* I don't think they should put "boarding" actually up until the doors are open, but putting the platform number up would be fine.
** I'm not sure it is because nobody stops you wandering onto platforms when no train is going to be going from there any time soon - if it was, the gates would be more secure and they'd be closed until opened for boarding, which they're not - the default state is open and unstaffed.

 

[michael8]

Yeah, one of the advantages of living in a democracy is that when the masters of a publicly funded asset lose the plot, they’re directly elected boss can pick up the phone and point that out.

Feel free to find me a single passenger that thinks the people who run Euston are weighting matters up correctly. You don’t get a free pass just because you have a job title.

Agree

 

[Howardh]

Come to that, on Avanti, it's a bit of a trek from the concourse even to reach the nearest not-first-class carriage

It's similar at Manchester Airport where a six-carriage train might be waiting to depart, so late arrivals clamber on the nearest and most crowded so the train doesn't leave without them if they attempt to find an emptier one. I suppose that stands for all terminal stations though. But at Manchester you aren't "kettled" at the gate like you are at Euston where it becomes a mad scramble for the first standard seats.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's similar at Manchester Airport where a six-carriage train might be waiting to depart, so late arrivals clamber on the nearest and most crowded so the train doesn't leave without them if they attempt to find an emptier one. I suppose that stands for all terminal stations though. But at Manchester you aren't "kettled" at the gate like you are at Euston where it becomes a mad scramble for the first standard seats.

I would think the other thing about Manchester is that some passengers (a minority, but enough to make some difference) are arriving from connections at platform 13/14, and therefore arrive at the far end of the platforms from the concourse, so there's a slightly more even spread of passengers.

(EDIT: Didn't notice you were referring to Manchester Airport - and replied about Piccadilly)

 

[Mikey C]

It's similar at Manchester Airport where a six-carriage train might be waiting to depart, so late arrivals clamber on the nearest and most crowded so the train doesn't leave without them if they attempt to find an emptier one. I suppose that stands for all terminal stations though. But at Manchester you aren't "kettled" at the gate like you are at Euston where it becomes a mad scramble for the first standard seats.

Chiltern trains at Marylebone have that issue, and with their stock being short units without gangways, if there are multiple units, the unit at the back is often much more crowded than the one at the front.

 

[Howardh]

I would think the other thing about Manchester is that some passengers (a minority, but enough to make some difference) are arriving from connections at platform 13/14, and therefore arrive at the far end of the platforms from the concourse, so there's a slightly more even spread of passengers.

That's true about Piccadilly but I was referring to the Airport station, sorry if I wasn't clear!
Of course at the airport station you have all the added bags making progress down the first coaches near impossible. Maybe a system could be implemented where pax are told to go to the far coaches and it won't leave without you?!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's true about Piccadilly but I was referring to the Airport station, sorry if I wasn't clear!

Sorry, checking back at your message, you had explicitly stated Airport. I was being blind when I replied

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern trains at Marylebone have that issue, and with their stock being short units without gangways, if there are multiple units, the unit at the back is often much more crowded than the one at the front.

Ssh, don't tell anyone, I like having half a coach to myself on a 12-car out of Euston when the rear is full and standing despite the fact that on 350s people can walk through!

 

[Howardh]

Sorry, checking back at your message, you had explicitly stated Airport. I was being blind when I replied

No worries! Thinking about Piccadilly they are in the unusual Terminal situation where you can access 1-12 via the overbridge from 13/14 (and, indeed, if you go along another platform to the stairs/lift) so a Euston-style "kettle" isn't practical.

The only "positive" I can think of r/e Euston is if you are on the inbound train, then you have a clear passage off the train and up the slope (to be hit by a wall of humanity either stood still or drifting around in all directions) whereas if pax were waiting to board, they'd be in the way.

I don't think the position of the shops @ Euston helps, especially getting to 1 - 3 where the corridor narrows, where the toilets are and add shops with waiting customers and it's all a bit frantic. If the shops are to stay, couldn't the toilet block be moved to the western end of the platforms?