Evening Peak Restrictions on Southern Downlander

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IanD

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Just had an email from Southern to say they are introducing evening peak restrictions on the Downlander ticket to match those on the Daysave from 19/05/2013 (a mere two weeks since it was mentioned on this forum that there were no evening peak restrictions - hmmm).

see section 4 of

http://www.southernrailwaytickets.com/main.php?page_id=296
Travel is restricted to Off-Peak train services:-
South Coast Downlander is valid from 09:30 weekdays and at any time over the weekend and on bank holidays.
- All Network Downlander is valid after 10:00 weekdays and at any time over the weekend and on bank holidays.
- From 19th May 2013:
All Network Downlander tickets are not valid for travel between 16:15 and 19:15 Monday to Friday when boarding trains from East Croydon and London stations (London Victoria, London Bridge and Clapham Junction).
 
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soil

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Very badly worded.

Apparently if you board the 16:03 from London Bridge to Horsham at LBG that's fine (before 16:15), if you board it at Norwood Junction at 16:16 that's also fine, but board at ECR at 16:20 and that's not allowed?

Clapham Junction is not a London station.
 

Be3G

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My interpretation is a little bit different, which results in your train being OK to board at 16:03 from London Bridge, but not from anywhere at 16:15 or later (until 19:15 of course… or is that 19:16?).

My reading is that you can catch any train you like, except between the given times, in which case you can only board trains that haven't called at the stations Southern mentioned. So, for example, you can't board the 16:49 from Hastings to Ore because it began its journey at Victoria, despite the fact it did so well outside of the peak. Is that the intended meaning? I don't know, but that's how I interpret it…
 

bb21

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I wonder if it applies when you interchange at East Croydon, or Clapham Junction, or any of the London terminals. :roll:

My reading is that you can catch any train you like, except between the given times, in which case you can only board trains that haven't called at the stations Southern mentioned. So, for example, you can't board the 16:49 from Hastings to Ore because it began its journey at Victoria, despite the fact it did so well outside of the peak. Is that the intended meaning? I don't know, but that's how I interpret it…

I doubt that is the intended meaning. I think the intention is to restrict these tickets at those busy locations during the afternoon peak.

Maybe they should have said "when boarding trains at East Croydon and London stations" rather than "from".
 

barrykas

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Just to muddy the waters further, the wording in NFM15 is different: "The All Network Downlander is not valid on trains that depart from a station within London Zones 1-6 between 16:15 and 19:15 (inclusive) Monday to Friday"
 

causton

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So you could not get a train from Brighton into East Croydon that arrived at 16:20 for example, as it departs there between 16:15 and 19:15?

Not even allowed on the West London line? Wow!
 

IanD

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I asked Southern about the restrictions on the daysave a while back and they said they only applied if joining (including changing trains) at the 4 stations mentioned as per Soil's interpretation rather than Be3G's.
 

Deerfold

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I asked Southern about the restrictions on the daysave a while back and they said they only applied if joining (including changing trains) at the 4 stations mentioned as per Soil's interpretation rather than Be3G's.

However presumably there's nothing to stop RPIs using the details as printed in NFM15 (and presumably which will appear on NRE) which can be read as far more restrictive) unless you happen to have that response from Southern.
 

Ebore

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However presumably there's nothing to stop RPIs using the details as printed in NFM15 (and presumably which will appear on NRE) which can be read as far more restrictive) unless you happen to have that response from Southern.
Southern will quite happily sell a Daysave complete with itinerary (link) for journeys such as Haywards Heath - Brighton or Brighton - London on trains leaving London/Clapham/Croydon from 16:15-19:15.
 

bicbasher

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So if I use an off-peak Daysave or Downloader from Brighton to Forest Hill in the evening peak, there's no real way I could get round it by changing at Gatwick for a stopping service to Purley or Norwood Junction, then catch the Metro service from Caterham which calls at East Croydon, but as I got on it at Purley...?
 

IanD

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However presumably there's nothing to stop RPIs using the details as printed in NFM15 (and presumably which will appear on NRE) which can be read as far more restrictive) unless you happen to have that response from Southern.

True. Maybe I'll ask them again.
 

yorkie

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Very badly worded.

Apparently if you board the 16:03 from London Bridge to Horsham at LBG that's fine (before 16:15), if you board it at Norwood Junction at 16:16 that's also fine, but board at ECR at 16:20 and that's not allowed?

Clapham Junction is not a London station.
Agreed. It is a mistake. It is MEANT to say:

Southern in an email sent to customers said:
Evening peak restrictions apply between 16:15 and 19:15 Monday to Friday when boarding trains from London stations (London Victoria, London Bridge), Clapham Junction and East Croydon.
So that is 4 stations. 2 of them are London Terminals (referred to as London Stations instead of London Terminals).

Having commas and brackets in the right places makes all the difference ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My reading is that you can catch any train you like, except between the given times, in which case you can only board trains that haven't called at the stations Southern mentioned.
That isn't what they mean (nor my interpretation), if it said "Not valid on trains timed to depart London Terminals..." you'd be right, but it's based on boarding time instead (and only at 4 stations).
 

NSEFAN

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Yorkie said:
That isn't what they mean (nor my interpretation), if it said "Not valid on trains timed to depart London Terminals..." you'd be right, but it's based on boarding time instead (and only at 4 stations).

So you could catch a train from, say, Battersea Park, but not board the exact same train at Victoria or Clapham Junction during the off-peak period defined?
 

greatkingrat

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I suspect they are not too bothered about the inner suburban services, the main aim is to stop the ticket being used on the fast services which only stop at Clapham Junction and/or East Croydon.
 

Be3G

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That isn't what they mean (nor my interpretation), if it said "Not valid on trains timed to depart London Terminals..." you'd be right, but it's based on boarding time instead (and only at 4 stations).

I accept that my interpretation doesn't seem to be the intended meaning, but I maintain that, grammatically at least, it is viable: ‘boarding trains from East Croydon’ to me means boarding a train that has come from East Croydon. (If you think about it carefully, that's the only way the preposition ‘from’ can make sense with the verb ‘to board’!) As bb21 said earlier, it would have made more sense if they'd said ‘boarding trains at…’ instead.

By the way, my pedantry here isn't aimed at you – rather, I was making/agreeing with the point that the public wording of the restriction wasn't particularly good, by showing how it could be interpreted differently. That was before we found out that the fare manual's version differs wildly…
 

greatkingrat

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There are other anomalies in the wording - if I arrive at the station early and board the 1620 departure at 1610 - is that allowed? :D
 
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