Evening peak restrictions: Should they be like the morning peak?

[NSEFAN]

I overheard a (somewhat tipsy!) passenger on a train this evening saying that leisure travellers shouldn't be allowed to travel in the evening peak because regular commuters pay a higher fare. I know there are already restrictions on super off-peak fares from some London terminals, but do people here think that it should be extended to off-peak fares between certain evening hours?

I can understand why this passenger felt aggreived for having to share with passengers who have paid less, but then I could extend this argument to pax who have cheap advance fares while I'm on an off-peak ticket. I also don't think it's practical to introduce season/anytime-only restrictions, as this will only make the trains outside the evening peak even busier.

What do people here think?

 

[ainsworth74]

Assuming that the commuter was on a season ticket I'd wager that on a per journey basis their travel cost is the same or even a bit less than the holder of the Super Off-Peak ticket.

 

[bicbasher]

There's two issues here, one is the lack of capacity on certain services, such as when FCC introduced a restriction on Thameslink north of St Pancras during the evening peak, the other is attracting leisure visitors to areas who may wish to go home during that time.

One of the fairer methods appears to be on Oyster in London where an evening peak fare is charged, but caps at just below the off-peak Travelcard rate, or offer the off-peak fare on TfL services into Zone 1 against the flow of commuters to attract leisure passengers into the capital.

 

[johnnychips]

The evening peak is less concentrated than the morning peak.

 

[swt_passenger]

I overheard a (somewhat tipsy!) passenger on a train this evening saying that leisure travellers shouldn't be allowed to travel in the evening peak because regular commuters pay a higher fare. I know there are already restrictions on super off-peak fares from some London terminals, but do people here think that it should be extended to off-peak fares between certain evening hours?

I can understand why this passenger felt aggreived for having to share with passengers who have paid less, but then I could extend this argument to pax who have cheap advance fares while I'm on an off-peak ticket. I also don't think it's practical to introduce season/anytime-only restrictions, as this will only make the trains outside the evening peak even busier.

What do people here think?

Well he needs to be careful about generalising. On the bits of the SWML I regularly use, your passenger would be quite wrong. The season ticket daily cost (lets say 20% of the 7 day season) is still less than both the offpeak and super off peak equivalent day tickets...

I think it would be helpful if some of the TOCs explained this to their season ticket holders. I've had this same discussion on a packed 444 out of Waterloo, the three chaps I was sat round a table with had no idea what the non-season fares were...

 

[NSEFAN]

Assuming that the commuter was on a season ticket I'd wager that on a per journey basis their travel cost is the same or even a bit less than the holder of the Super Off-Peak ticket

This is a very good point. The drunk passenger was complaining about having to pay over £4000 a year for a season ticket, and then, to paraphrase her words, "have to give up my seat to some four year old who has paid a lot less than me."

The line in question is the Chiltern route, so I'm guessing she was travelling from Bicester North, which has an annual season fare of £4384. Assuming she worked every week day of the year, minus annual paid leave, that mean she takes the train about 230 days per year. A daily return is therefore around £19 for her.

A off-peak day return is £27.50 for the same journey, and with a 33% railcard discount this reduces to £18.30 or so. The child return rate is £13.75. Then there's family railcard and groupsave options which can reduce the price further for groups of passengers. So I guess the child would be paying a lot less to travel, but then they are starting their journey off peak. The anytime fares are a lot more (£26.80 for a child return!), so in a like-for-like comparison, the commuter is actually getting the better deal.

The evening peak is less concentrated than the morning peak.

This is true. I was catching the 2118 from MYB to BAN and it was still busy, although there were few standing passengers. This isn't the first time I've heard passengers on this route complaining about non-commuters travelling in the rush hour. I was once travelling with my grandmother having arrived from Scotland via KGX. We had a suitcase and someone piped up about how it wasn't right for us to travel with heavy luggage at that time. "These are commuter trains, you know!" :roll:

 

[island]

Evening restrictions already apply to off-peak tickets to many destinations from Paddington and Euston, for example.

 

[yorksrob]

The evening peak is less concentrated than the morning peak.

This.

And the fact that you‘re adding another layer of complication for the unwary traveller. Stick with the morning peak. Allows the railway to charge more for work travel but simple for leisure travellers to remember and plan around.

 

[edwin_m]

This is true. I was catching the 2118 from MYB to BAN and it was still busy, although there were few standing passengers. This isn't the first time I've heard passengers on this route complaining about non-commuters travelling in the rush hour. I was once travelling with my grandmother having arrived from Scotland via KGX. We had a suitcase and someone piped up about how it wasn't right for us to travel with heavy luggage at that time. "These are commuter trains, you know!" :roll:

I know commuters have to work long hours to pay for their season tickets, but I'd hardly describe 2118 as peak hour! The evening peak restrictions out of St Pancras and Kings Cross finish around 1900 as far as I recall.

 

[island]

Indeed they do, and evening peak restrictions from London on regulated fares cannot apply any later AFAIK.

 

[Haywain]

The drunk passenger was complaining about having to pay over £4000 a year for a season ticket, and then, to paraphrase her words, "have to give up my seat to some four year old who has paid a lot less than me."

Actually, that's a fair point. The 4 year old is probably travelling free, and occupying a seat, and needing room to play with an annoyingly noisy electronic game!

 

[maniacmartin]

I hope not. I thought the rule was that children who are young enough to not have to have a ticket are not entitled to seats, unless a child ticket is purchased. Aren't they supposed to sit on an adult's lap if there is a seat shortage?

 

[jon0844]

I hope not. I thought the rule was that children who are young enough to not have to have a ticket are not entitled to seats, unless a child ticket is purchased. Aren't they supposed to sit on an adult's lap if there is a seat shortage?

Yes, going free (under 5) does mean not taking a seat over someone who has paid.

I can't believe people with season tickets are moaning. If there was anything to moan about when I travelled home just as the evening peak ended, it was that the train was overly busy with all the people who had waited - such that the train before was often pretty empty (at 6.30 or so, most of the rush hour people had gone, and others were forced to stay off).

I miss having the flexibility of a season ticket and being able to go back and forth to London as much as I wanted, using the buses as much as I wanted and being able to take ANY train. Other people didn't bother me in the slightest, especially those with restricted tickets. None of my business! As a regular traveller, I knew what trains to get and where to go to get a seat, so if anyone is moaning then it's them that should wise up and do something about it.

 

[30907]

I hope not. I thought the rule was that children who are young enough to not have to have a ticket are not entitled to seats, unless a child ticket is purchased. Aren't they supposed to sit on an adult's lap if there is a seat shortage?

Yes, but it is perfectly in order to buy a ticket for them (1) to give them a right to a seat and/or (2) to get the F&F railcard discount

 

[Haywain]

I hope not. I thought the rule was that children who are young enough to not have to have a ticket are not entitled to seats, unless a child ticket is purchased. Aren't they supposed to sit on an adult's lap if there is a seat shortage?

Supposed to. Correct. The reality is, however, often very different.

 

[dvboy]

Morning peak: 7-9.30, Evening peak: 3-8 generally twice as long. Plus the people who aren't commuting but getting out early during the morning peak but want to get home before the evening peak, and those going out to places in city centres like shopping or the pubs after work generally means the evening peak is a lot more spread out than the morning peak.

 

[455driver]

I can't believe people with season tickets are moaning.

Are you being serious?
Or did you miss the smiley off the end.

Season ticket holders moan more than the rest of the population put together, when you try and explain to them how little per day they actually pay (plus the weekend perks on the Gold cards in the ex NSE area etc) they just come out with the "but I have to pay up front for it" line. Some people dont realise just how good they have got it really, some seasons are barely more than the costs of 2 peak returns (or whatever they are called) per week!

 

[edwin_m]

Morning peak: 7-9.30, Evening peak: 3-8 generally twice as long. Plus the people who aren't commuting but getting out early during the morning peak but want to get home before the evening peak, and those going out to places in city centres like shopping or the pubs after work generally means the evening peak is a lot more spread out than the morning peak.

Also most schools start at about the same time as most workplaces, but finish quite a bit earlier.