Every Calder Valley Leeds-bounds service late

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by TUC, 28 Nov 2019.

  1. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    At Halifax this morning every Leeds-bound service is showing as being late due to the service being delayed leaving thr depot. Does anyone know what caused this generalised delay, and has it affected other services?
     
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  3. sirbobpaisley

    sirbobpaisley Member

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    This happens on the Harrogate line too.

    Not sure why trains are always late leaving their starting station most days.
     
  4. Spartacus

    Spartacus Established Member

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    Looks like a few things in different places, driver late shunting a set of sidings, brake fault and unspecified fitters attention. 0659 was on time though ;)
     
  5. Gems

    Gems Member

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    Those new 195s again. An absolute disaster they are. Sooner or later Northern are going to have to bring the whole lot out of service and admit they are not up to scratch.
     
  6. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    The units are not perfect, but a lot of the issues are user error - it's noticeable that with every introduction into service there's been a big spike of failures which settles down after a few weeks and many of the issues causing delays and cancellations are unnecessary - eg brake tests being required (easily rectified and shouldn't be an issue if everyone does their job correctly), doors closing prematurely (guards rushing, drivers shutting down desk too quickly), Asdo issues (easily reset if Asdo actually loses its location, plenty of issues that are down to misunderstanding of the system such as when to use SDO and when not to), battery charger/aux converter alarms (rarely an actual issue), compressor alarms (so long as it's not a solo 195/0 and you are maintaining air it's not a problem and usually a false positive), speedo failure under heavy WSP activity (reset the desk, usually good to go), AWS/TPWS data not being received by OTDR when desk switched on (reset the desk), burst cardan shaft alarm (reset desk, maybe powerpack alarms reset), people confusing PIS not working with ASDO not working (they're two separate systems), in-cab CCTV screens not working (we are not using them for dispatch), DAS not working (nobody is using DAS yet!)...

    People are generally confusing the severity of TCMS faults with what's actually important as per the established rules and regs - I know one heavy delay recently where a driver wanted an outstation fitter to look at a unit because the TCMS threw up a fault saying the SRS was defective. SRS for the uninitiated is Seat Reservation System.

    Every unit I get in, I look at the repair book and a lot of the faults booked certainly needn't have the disastrous effect on the train service that they often end up causing.
     
  7. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Why are there so terribly many faults though? Should they have been brought into service if this was going to be the case so often? Occasional false positives are unavoidable. But unsurprisingly given the industry safety culture, alarming messages presented to train crew will demand attention and action. Another question is: should a fault with the seat reservation system result in a similar type of alert for the train crew as a more serious technical fault?
     
  8. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    Aren't they the kind of training issues that should have been addressed before the trains came into service?
     
  9. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    I do think there is a wider British culture issue in saying 'the units are not perfect'. Why do TOCs seem to accept that instead of pushing back on the manufacturers until they meet their contractual duties and address all deficiencies and failures to meet specifications in new trains?
     
  10. gazzaa2

    gazzaa2 Member

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    Might as well just stick with the pacers.
     
  11. SteveM70

    SteveM70 Member

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    You’re making a leap of faith that the specification was correct in the first place
     
  12. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    Oh yes, absolutely. But then the training is absolutely minimal to the point where information as to how the units actually work, and how the systems interact with one another, is withheld even from the instructors giving the training so as to make the training course as brief as is possible.

    I have current traction manuals for everything from 08s to 68s to 180s and the one major thing that stands out about the CAF units is that the actual traction manual has never been issued to anyone who drives these units - not to drivers, instructors or managers. Drivers are given training material in the form of six books (I say books, they're printed on A4 paper for each course in booklet format) and told that those are what they need to carry round with them. These 'books' are very sparse in information, full of mistakes and lack detail.
     
  13. SteveM70

    SteveM70 Member

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    At face value to an outsider that sounds amazing and scary in equal measure. But presumably the training plan needs some sort of external signoff?
     
  14. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    External, I don't know, I doubt it. But, the course has to meet a lot of specific criteria to satisfy the TOC's safety case in line with relevant RGS (Railway Group Standards) to do with certain major features or procedures that have to be explained explicitly to drivers. These are even noted within those booklets as fulfilling that purpose. The course content is also agreed internally with Aslef, however the reps who verify the content of the course are hardly the sorts of drivers I would consider knowledgeable about the characteristics of risks of these units and none of them were familiar/competent to drive the units at the time they were required to verify the course content. Those reps report up to senior reps at Aslef head office who make the decision based on the report received as to whether the training course as a whole is acceptable to Aslef or not.

    Earlier this year there was a classroom of drivers at Allerton depot literally sat around a table in a classroom waiting for word to come through from London that Aslef executive committee had formally agreed the course, so that they could commence training those drivers.

    I could write a book on all the farces I've seen in the last few years but nobody would actually believe most of it, it would sound too ridiculous to be true.
     
  15. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    I can't think of any new fleet of trains which didn't have some teething troubles. It's normal; frustrating, but normal.
     
  16. M1544

    M1544 Member

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    The 195s seem very poor performance wise especially during station duties. I’ve also noted that 195s are particularly slow to change ends/set up and for guard to dispatch
    at Bradford Interchange when compared to 14/15x units. It’s not unusual for trains to take 5 min rather than the booked 3. That’s on top of the generally slower dwells enroute, seems to take longer for guards to release doors.
    Performance on Calder Valley dire since these trains appeared.
    Been on 195s at least 4 times where only the local door will open causing all passengers to have to exit through one carriage causing more delays. Also had an auto announcement on a 195 i was on the other week that said the train wouldn’t fit in platform at Halifax, despite the fact it did with about 7 carriage lengths spare and only doors in one car would open! Was as if had been erroneously programmed into itself that halifax was a short platform station when it’s not!
     
  17. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    I've heard the Halifax announcement a few times, it's more worrying that it is only intermittent when that announcement happens.

    Here's what's meant to happen on arrival at Bradford on a 195.
    Train stops.
    Driver sets DRA, puts direction selector to neutral, changes lights.
    Driver waits for doors to be released and after about five seconds removes key from desk deenergising the desk.
    Driver collects belongings - coat, bag, paperwork, keys. Checks frontal lighting (tails), changes ends closing cab door behind them if necessary.
    Driver arrives at front cab. Deposits bag, coat, changes frontal lighting, checks lighting is correct, closes cab door.
    Inserts key in desk, checks and acknowledges AWS/TPWS self test. Sets up GSMR radio with train ID and location.
    PIS should already be set up at origin. OTDR number is already accepted in TCMS on 195s.
    Driver adjusts seat & sunblind. Once signal has cleared with correct indication resets the DRA, puts DSSW into forward and awaits ready to start from the guard.
     
    Last edited: 28 Nov 2019
  18. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    Guard will have to override ASDO to use SDO at Bradford because the unit won't know which platform it is in. This takes either five or ten seconds for the guard to release the doors depending where the guard is positioned and which platform the train is on - it takes five seconds to release all doors forward of the local door using SDO, and five seconds for any doors aft of the local door (if any - the guard might be at the rearmost door but that is only possible on platforms 1 & 3 because the local door controls are at diagonally opposite doors, only two per coach).

    If the guard could only open the local door and not the train doors at any station other than Leeds, Bradford, Manchester Vic, Warrington BQ or Chester the Asdo had probably lost its odometry - that takes about two seconds for the driver to rectify, so long as they know what to do, but it needs a phone call to Northern control too to report the circumstances. At those stations listed, and Earlestown on the way back to Manchester, the guards know that they must override Asdo because it can't predict the correct platform. If it loses its odometry and the driver hasn't/can't reset it then it needs overriding by the the guard in the same way but permission from control must be obtained first. Northern control are not quick at answering the phone...
     
  19. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    So should they not run 195s via Bradford Int or will performamce improve eventually?
     
  20. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    There's arguably less to do for a driver when changing ends on a 195 compared to any other unit. There's certainly nothing that should exceed the allocated timing.

    The vast majority of drivers on the 195s via Bradford have only worked the units for less than six weeks when they entered service on the route. They're still getting used to them which is the cause of a lot of delays when compared to routes such as those through Oxford Rd where they've been in service since July and the drivers are a lot more familiar now.
     
  21. Gems

    Gems Member

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    You have forgotten the "Isolated electromagnetic brake" fault. You know, the one where it had to be isolated because the software failed rendering the brakes useless.

    You can paint as many pretty pictures as you like. But the simple fact is that if one of these was your new car, you would have it back in the garage, refuse to drive it, and get onto trading standards.
     
  22. Gems

    Gems Member

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    Sorry, you are wrong again. At those stations we do not need to inform Northern control. You only need to do that if it is a station where ASDO should be working correctly. I was also chatting to a CAF engineer on my train with his lap top plugged in. He happily told me that there has been instances where a driver resetting ASDO has led to wrong door release.
     
  23. Gems

    Gems Member

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    How does complete brake failure sound as a teething problem? Only brainless idiots such as Boeing and CAF could rely heavily on software for safe operation.
     
    Last edited: 28 Nov 2019
  24. Gems

    Gems Member

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    How odd is it that the director responsible for implementing these new pieces of garbage into service has decided to retire. I'd retire also if I was him. At least like me, he knows what's coming when the word leaks out.
     
  25. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    Brakes jammed on, you mean? You do make it sound all melodramatic.

    The 158s couldn't operate track circuits in autumn because of their brakes. And couldn't stop at Blackburn for months after introduction because the doors hit the platform. The 333s used to throw a wobbler every time it was a warm day, and as for the 175s, well.

    They've been in operation for weeks. If they're still like this in six months then we might be wondering if Alstom built them.
     
  26. Gems

    Gems Member

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    Umm. No. A train heading towards a red signal. A 331. Driver notices that the power % display is showing zero. No power. So he checks the brake function. No brakes. He stops the train using emergency plunger and even put it into reverse. Software fault was the issue. So now the 331s are running around with the electromagnetic brakes isolated. That is why they squeal like pigs when stopping.
    I mean don't believe me if you don't want. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
     
  27. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    You're going to have to give proof of that one.

    A full brake failure would have consequences. A RAIB referral. Recalls. Withdrawals from service.

    None of that has happened. Either there's a massive cover-up, or what you reported didn't happen in the way you reported it.
     
    Last edited: 28 Nov 2019
  28. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    The electrodynamic brake (on 331s) isn't isolated because of it failing, it's isolated because of electromagnetic interference. You are confusing that traction digest with the holding brake one where a brake application of at least 25% must be made by the driver if the unit has had traction power applied but not exceeded 2mph. The holding brake icon shows red on the TCMS in such circumstances.
    I am quite aware of how Asdo works and under what circumstances Northern control need informing, as well as which stations it should be overridden at and more importantly why (it's not always the obvious ones - hence the mention of Earlestown). If you think informed people are not aware of the locations where Asdo in SDO mode should be used then you have too little faith in the system and drivers.

    Also, I can assure you that if the circumstances you describe above with the electrodynamic brake actually happened then the response would be a lot more serious than it has been - ie none. There are channels of information shared continuously between CAF, Northern DIs/DTMs & Standards with regard the performance and faults of these units, anything as drastic as a full failure of the electrodynamic brake in normal running would get everybody's attention immediately and see the units pulled from service & a full investigation. No such incident has been reported.
     
  29. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    I've had exactly the same experience on a 195 in Halifax. The guard had to do a manual override. This was straight after the passenger announcement system had incorrectly announced Bradford as Halifax, so I did wonder if the train system was mismatching stations, leading to the door issue.
     
  30. Class195

    Class195 Member

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    Hi everyone, new to this forum.

    Has anyone noticed the class 195s are taking longer when approaching and leaving Bradford Interchange?

    Have the drivers been told to be extra cautious when coming down the hill? It appears to me that they are constantly breaking which results in a strong juddering action.
     
  31. Class195

    Class195 Member

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    I’ve had the same problem with the wrong announcements between Bradford and Halifax getting mixed up.

    I’ve also seen the doors shut whilst in the platform after 20 seconds of them being opened, leaving people on the train to the next stop with them not realising that the guard hasn’t closed the doors yet.
     

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