Every Tube ticket office to close

[Be3G]

If there are going to be no compulsory redundancies how do we know the figure of job losses will be 750? If nobody takes redundancy then doesn't that leave the figure at 0? Am I missing something here?

People will retire, people will want to move on to new non-TfL jobs, that sort of thing. What TfL are saying, effectively, is that they won't try to replace the first 750 members of staff who decide to leave. (Obviously I'm simplifying things a bit there; whether or not a staff member is replaced would, I expect, depend on their role to a large extent.)

The compo vouchers issued for tube delays are currently only redeemable at ticket offices

Not that this changes the value of your point much, but for what it's worth, the vouchers can be used at National Rail stations too to pay for any ticket that includes tube travel.

I'm sure I've heard of newsagents adding Railcards - along with a handful or NR stations.

There is a mention somewhere on TfL's Oyster help pages that supposedly newsagents can add railcards. However, I tried it once and didn't have much luck.

Appropriately trained staff can already do many Oyster functions on the Poms (LU TVMs), including adding of Railcard discounts, and have been able to do so since 2011.

Now this is interesting. Does that mean that if I turned up at my nearest tube station when the ticket office is closed, and asked for a railcard discount to be added to my Oyster, a member of staff should oblige me and do it for me on the TVM? Or would that member of staff be most likely to tell me to go away and come back when the ticket office is open?

 

[joeykins82]

I suppose it depends on whether they've been appropriately trained to not tell you to naff off...

 

[jon0844]

The TfL press release doesn't mention arrangements for out of town rail passengers with one-day travelcards or those making a cross-London transfer as part of a longer journey.

Will these passengers continue to use the standard paper tickets in 2015?

Doesn't the DfT have plans to have smartcards introduced on all new (and recent) franchises by a certain date (admittedly I doubt this will be in time for 2015). Presumably the whole of the UK will eventually get these, and hopefully also payment by credit/debit card at the gates.

At the moment you can only pay for goods and services up to £20, but I believe there are plans to increase this.

Also, I believe the smartcard won't just hold a shed load of money for PAYG travel (imagine the maximum fare on that if you didn't touch both in and out!) but will enable you to load a ticket on to your card, presumably by touching your card at a TVM, but equally adding the ticket when you touch in at a gateline (or touching your phone) having purchased the ticket online or via your phone.

The most important thing at rail stations will be similar rules to have stations continue to be staffed, so there are people on hand to deal with issues (and will have the means to help with ticketing issues).

 

[bicbasher]

I suppose it depends on whether they've been appropriately trained to not tell you to naff off...

I suspect the latter, especially at smaller stations.

 

[Mojo]

Now this is interesting. Does that mean that if I turned up at my nearest tube station when the ticket office is closed, and asked for a railcard discount to be added to my Oyster, a member of staff should oblige me and do it for me on the TVM? Or would that member of staff be most likely to tell me to go away and come back when the ticket office is open?

It is not possible to do this at stations with TVMs (i.e. the ex-Silverlink stations). It can only be done at the LU stations with the advanced fare machine Pom - that is every station except the ex-Silverlink stations, and Roding Valley. In time, all of the Poms will be upgraded to have the enhanced staff functionality, amongst other things.

It depends on whether, when you arrive, the member of staff is appropriately trained to do this. Whilst this includes all ticket office-licensed staff, only those ordinary CSAs, Duty Managers and Supervisors who have volunteered and have undergone the training are able to assist you. As it is technically outside of their job description, they are under no obligation to do this, although many will do so. Your card also has to be registered.

 

[jon0844]

I know that in Barcelona, staff could put an ordinary TVM into an 'admin' mode and do extra things - presumably turning the TVM into what they'd have in the ticket office.

So, staff on the ground could still - in theory - do all of the things they did before behind a window.

 

[flymo]

Interesting news about the ticket offices, I really hope some of them do remain open for visitors.

My recent experience was at Heathrow T123. The plane arrived at about 04:30, got out of the airport and into the Underground station by about 05:10. Anyway wanted to buy an Oyster card so as the ticket office wasn't open I went to the machine. After selecting everything OK I went to pay only to find that notes could not be accepted as a payment method, i.e. no slot to pay with notes. I never noticed before trying to buy one. So anyway just waited until the ticket office opened at 05:30 and got an Oyster card from the chappie there without difficulty, paying by cash.

Is there any reason why an Oyster card cannot be bought with notes from the machines at Heathrow T123?? Seems a little bit strange not to have that especially when you can top up with cash (I think ! ). I guess I could have paid by card but wanted to use cash, much easier to control the spending.

 

[Mojo]

Is there any reason why an Oyster card cannot be bought with cash from the machines at Heathrow T123?? Seems a little bit strange not to have that especially when you can top up with cash (I think ! ). I guess I could have paid by card but wanted to use cash, much easier to control the spending.

It is because that design of machine accepts coins and notes only.

 

[Be3G]

It is not possible to do this at stations with TVMs (i.e. the ex-Silverlink stations). It can only be done at the LU stations with the advanced fare machine Pom - that is every station except the ex-Silverlink stations, and Roding Valley. In time, all of the Poms will be upgraded to have the enhanced staff functionality, amongst other things.

It depends on whether, when you arrive, the member of staff is appropriately trained to do this. Whilst this includes all ticket office-licensed staff, only those ordinary CSAs, Duty Managers and Supervisors who have volunteered and have undergone the training are able to assist you. As it is technically outside of their job description, they are under no obligation to do this, although many will do so. Your card also has to be registered.

Oh you knew what I meant! (In the same way that jonmorris0844 a few posts above me has also used the abbreviation ‘TVM’, and we know what he's talking about.) Thanks for the explanation about which staff can do it, though. I had no idea that the machines the public use had extra functionality like that hidden away; the first thing I thought when I read that TfL want to get rid of ticket offices was ‘what about loading railcard discounts?!’

 

[Bungle73]

The TfL press release doesn't mention arrangements for out of town rail passengers with one-day travelcards or those making a cross-London transfer as part of a longer journey.

Will these passengers continue to use the standard paper tickets in 2015?

What does any of that have to do with the closure of ticket offices? No one has mentioned anything about getting rid of paper tickets, or making their use impossible.

 

[bicbasher]

I've spoken to a friend of a friend who's a LUL employee. As Mojo says, the machines can add discounts to Oyster, but only the larger ones at present, although they say LU are bringing in new Poms which in their words can do "everything" that the TIS can, including small refunds on Oyster.

 

[Mojo]

I've spoken to a friend of a friend who's a LUL employee. As Mojo says, the machines can add discounts to Oyster, but only the larger ones at present, although they say LU are bringing in new Poms which in their words can do "everything" that the TIS can, including small refunds on Oyster.

It's actually the smaller[1] ones not the larger ones. The software can already handle Oyster refunds where there is an incomplete journey.

[1] Not the small standalone 'queue buster' machines but the ones that dispense Oyster cards. http://www.transportxtra.com/files/9847-l.jpg The design on the right.

 

[paddington]

I frequently use ticket offices to buy variable length travelcards on Oyster. (The zones I require change every few months.)

If it became possible to do this at TVMs or LU machines without staff being present, I would not oppose closure of ticket offices.

Also I am pretty sure that the "back office software" would not calculate the cheapest combination of travelcard + PAYG for me if it stopped being possible to buy travelcards in advance (as some people are speculating).

Also, LU machines should restart accepting 5p coins, or even better, a mixture of coins and card payment.

 

[cjp]

It's actually the smaller[1] ones not the larger ones. The software can already handle Oyster refunds where there is an incomplete journey.

How is this done?
I went to an underground station today as I had a max fare charge. The booking office clerk looked at my history, told me what I had done wrong and fixed it then and there. Job done in under 60 seconds.
Excellent service I thought.

 

[Mojo]

How is this done?
I went to an underground station today as I had a max fare charge. The booking office clerk looked at my history, told me what I had done wrong and fixed it then and there. Job done in under 60 seconds.
Excellent service I thought.

The member of staff presents their staff pass to the Oyster card reader and enters their Pin. They then present the customer's Oyster card and go into the relevant option to do whatever it takes to resolve the journey.

 

[jon0844]

I effect a ticket machine becomes the machine staff used when they were in the office. Only now they're free to wander around to help and assist people about other things.

Why hasn't TfL been saying this as the media has reported the job losses all day and let the unions express their anger and talk about strikes.

It sounds like a far better use of staff.

 

[Bungle73]

I effect a ticket machine becomes the machine staff used when they were in the office. Only now they're free to wander around to help and assist people about other things.

Why hasn't TfL been saying this as the media has reported the job losses all day and let the unions express their anger and talk about strikes.

It sounds like a far better use of staff.

Because the media, and everyone else it seems, always want to focus on the negative. Hence that "They're brining back 3rd class" thing there was a big hooha about a little while ago, when the actual proposal was nothing of the sort.

 

[Clip]

I notice people keep asking 'But what about tourists' as if that is the sole reason to keep them open!

Lisbon,Athens,Brussels are just 3 cities I have been to recently where I never used a ticket office to purchase my tickets and never really saw any at stations anyway - and Athens I only saw police - so, if its about the tourists, how come they can manage it in other cities but we here cant?


As has been said visitor centres will be in place and you would hope that by time of this being rolled out all POMs and TVMs at major stations will be able to issue the tickets foreigners require. Or are we saying that they are all dumb and we are clever cos we can use theirs without any problems?

 

[455driver]

From reading the article, it seems that a lot of stations will be losing ticket offices but not staff. I can't see this making much difference to stations in the suburbs where the bulk of the passengers will already be using Oyster.

So how is closing the ticket office but keeping the staff going to save £40million?

The only way that amount of money will be saved is on staff wages by either reducing the staffing levels (likely) and/or reducing their pay (very likely).

Maybe that bafoon should look at the costs of buying/ maintaining/ staffing/ running those stupid buses to see how money can be saved without inconveniencing the public!

 

[jon0844]

You wouldn't need to cut pay would you? You might cut staff though, but through natural wastage.

While you'd have people out on the 'shopfloor' there could potentially be a few less staff at some stations that already have lots of people out.

As long as there are no forced job cuts, I don't see a problem. Ticket office usage will only fall further in the future.

Give staff access to make a TVM into a terminal with extra facilties and an iPad to do more anywhere on the station (it'll be like being in an Apple store!) and you've now got a viable role for staff for the next generation.

 

[Tubeboy]

Ticket office and station control room staff have an opportunity to apply for a customer service supervisor role, if they don't get it, they will be demoted to a passenger service agent, today's customer service assistant. I am a control room trainer so will drop two pay grades. That's where a lot of money will be saved.

All current station grades will be abolished and replaced by new grades.

The current customer service assistants will see little changes.

 

[12CSVT]

This also affects former British Rail staff who are currently entitled to travel on PRIV rate tickets on the Underground. These can only be purchased from Underground ticket offices.

 

[Mojo]

This also affects former British Rail staff who are currently entitled to travel on PRIV rate tickets on the Underground. These can only be purchased from Underground ticket offices.

You can however get discount on Oyster. TfL wishes to withdraw all non-Oyster Priv tickets.

 

[Bungle73]

You can however get discount on Oyster. TfL wishes to withdraw all non-Oyster Priv tickets.

What? There is no such thing as an "Oyster paper ticket". Osyter is a smart card ticketing system, and TfL have no plans to get rid of that.

 

[bicbasher]

I was at Charing Cross station this morning at 10am at the end of the peak and was able to walk straight to the ticket office where the clerk who was doing another task was able to assist me. On occasion, the clerk will take their break around 0945-1000 in which the ticket office is closed.

1pm at Embankment and there was a large queue for the ticket office. To solve that problem post 2015, you're going to need more than one CSA to assist the passengers who are in that queue today.

 

[Mojo]

Or just do what the Metro systems in a fair number of other major cities, including other British Metros, and let customers work out the ticket machines themselves. At least LU will continue to have a fair number of staff visible in the ticket hall able to help with machines, unlike said other systems.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You can however get discount on Oyster. TfL wishes to withdraw all non-Oyster Priv tickets.

Do you mean Travelcards?

Which gives rise to a supplementary question: When a National Rail station is made Oyster compatible ( as on SWT for example ) are paper Travelcards going to be withdrawn from sale at those stations as well?

 

[jon0844]

Or just do what the Metro systems in a fair number of other major cities, including other British Metros, and let customers work out the ticket machines themselves. At least LU will continue to have a fair number of staff visible in the ticket hall able to help with machines, unlike said other systems.

If the machines have multiple languages, I think people will be okay.

LU machines seem fairly easy to use (compared to, say, some TOC TVMs).

I've used machines abroad and, even in English, they can be a bit confusing. But you can usually figure them out, and I think people coming here will have it easier than most. TfL is pretty good at making things easy and logical, from using machines to reading signs, maps and navigating stations.

But for tourists that might need that bit more help, just have visitor centres at all the airports (including all the 'London' airports perhaps, so Luton, Stansted, Southend), ports (not many of those), King's Cross St Pancras and Victoria Coach Station.

Then the vast majority of tourists can arrive and get an Oyster card (or whatever) as soon as they arrive - as well as being given leaflets/maps in their language, or given details on how to download apps to their smartphone (and perhaps have free Wi-Fi at these locations so they can do so without paying ridiculous roaming fees, although for EU users that problem should be history by 2015).

 

[Mojo]

Do you mean Travelcards?

I have heard some things about magnetic Travelcards being withdrawn from LUL services in the future, however no, I was referring to the withdrawal of LU Priv singles on paper.

 

[jon0844]

TfL should be making it possible to add day Travelcards to Oyster, but I guess it doesn't feel the need because of price capping (which, in most cases, will work fine despite the many issues highlighted here).

If it did that, the sale of paper travelcards would surely plummet.

And another thing might be to have a cheaper, disposable, smartcard when the cost of them falls. Or a card that has no deposit so could be discarded, but probably wouldn't as people would either keep them to use again - or kept as a souvenir.