One could argue that is on a par with Police, since going from Trainee/Recruit to Competent isn’t as long as the 2 year probation in the Police?
If that’s not the case, that just proves the point that police salaries aren’t wholly dire.
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Ex Cops who have go on to be Drivers
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If that’s not the case, that just proves the point that police salaries aren’t wholly dire.
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dctraindriver
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Out of interest Stigy I see you mentioned a HCA grade on about 25k with enhancements which is on par with a PCSO or detention officer, how much is a qualified paramedic on? Remember police officers joining now need a degree or obtain a degree while training.
It varies between trust as far as I’m aware, but a student para is on around £24-28k I believe, with a 25% allowance on top. Fully qualified it’s around £35k plus the 25% shift allowances. I know my local trust has had a restructure which sees allowances only paid for the unsociable hours accrued, rather than a flat rate on top of the salary.
Naturally it increases with enhanced skill set etc too.
So much of what has been said on this thread resonates with me. I'm a cop with 15 in, all front line uniform and I genuinely believe that Policing is heading for a huge crisis. Many would say it's already at crisis point but at the moment nobody is listening. It's going to take another Davies type review to salvage things but with so little public support for the Police I just cannot see any government implementing this. The system would need to completely shatter for this to happen.
It's become almost cliche these days to read blogs from serving cops talking about the horrors of the things they see day to day and the lack of support from the organisation/management/public. The attitude is very much "this is what you signed up for" and to a point that is true. But nobody can truly know when joining the job just how much of an effect this will have on you after 5, 10, 15 years. It's all very well going into something with eyes wide open but until you've done it for a long time you can never truly know how it'll impact you. Burn out for a cop with my level of service is standard and I'm not even half way through.
The bad stuff you see and deal with is not the main issue for me though. For me it's how the job impacts you off duty. When I first joined the Police I was obviously very careful who I told what I did for a career but I was quite proud to tell decent folk how I paid my bills. But now I can honestly say that I would not tell anybody I'm a cop. The level of hate and disrespect for the Police has ramped up in the last 5 years to unbearable levels. Even amongst decent hard working, law abiding folk. We are constantly reminded of this silent majority who support us, but it feels like this silent majority are just a figment of some senior cops imagination. It's like being told to behave in life so you go to heaven in the afterlife, there's no tangible proof it exists beyond pure faith.
Simply put the decent public have lost faith in us. The criminal justice system stacks the deck to work in favour of the accused. This is done for good intentions, it's to stop miscarriages of justice, fit ups, corruption etc and this is all fair enough and proper. But the flip side is that it makes it very difficult to actually prove the guilt of a suspect even when it appears the evidence is all there. Beyond all reasonable doubt is such a high burden of proof. For high stakes stuff like murder etc the time and money is rightly invested to make sure the evidence is gathered. But to the average Joe Bloggs in the street who is affected by what is known as "volume crime" it becomes much more difficult. As such the Police are the scapegoats for the publics frustration. Couple this with dangerously low officer numbers (unless there's a football match then there seems to be hundreds of us- this adds to the negative public perception), National Crime Recording Standards (literally everything that is reported now has to be recorded as a crime, a large percentage of which is impossible to even begin to prove, so naturally detection rates will fall) and ridiculous levels of bureacracy then you realise what a difficult and thankless task you have. Swimming against the tide every day does become mentally draining.
It feels as though the Police as an organisation ignore the problems because of a stubborn belief that they'll always be able to recruit. More recently the shift has actually become focused on people doing the job short term in order to keep the front line fresh faced and enthusiastic. Old sweats like me are only useful when things go wrong and they need an experienced head to sort it out. But yet I've been overlooked for promotion a few times now whilst watching officers with 3 years in become Sgts. Maybe it's my lovable optimistic nature thats stopping me progressing
Sorry for the whinge. The crux of the matter is being a cop has become very much a love/hate affair. I'll always love the job and have had some amazing experiences, met some great people and I know I've done a lot of work to be proud of. But I'm at an age now where I feel if I did this for another 15-20 years then I'd retire with a pretty decent Pension (although vastly less than the one I signed up for!) then die of a heart attack the next day! As negative as that sounds I've lost count of how many retired cops I know who have not lived to see 2 years of their hard earned pensions.
I'd love to get on the railways but I doubt I'd pass the assessment centre for driver. I'm bloody rubbish at the dots test, I've had a few online practices and can't seem to get the hang of it. But anyway thanks for reading
It's become almost cliche these days to read blogs from serving cops talking about the horrors of the things they see day to day and the lack of support from the organisation/management/public. The attitude is very much "this is what you signed up for" and to a point that is true. But nobody can truly know when joining the job just how much of an effect this will have on you after 5, 10, 15 years. It's all very well going into something with eyes wide open but until you've done it for a long time you can never truly know how it'll impact you. Burn out for a cop with my level of service is standard and I'm not even half way through.
The bad stuff you see and deal with is not the main issue for me though. For me it's how the job impacts you off duty. When I first joined the Police I was obviously very careful who I told what I did for a career but I was quite proud to tell decent folk how I paid my bills. But now I can honestly say that I would not tell anybody I'm a cop. The level of hate and disrespect for the Police has ramped up in the last 5 years to unbearable levels. Even amongst decent hard working, law abiding folk. We are constantly reminded of this silent majority who support us, but it feels like this silent majority are just a figment of some senior cops imagination. It's like being told to behave in life so you go to heaven in the afterlife, there's no tangible proof it exists beyond pure faith.
Simply put the decent public have lost faith in us. The criminal justice system stacks the deck to work in favour of the accused. This is done for good intentions, it's to stop miscarriages of justice, fit ups, corruption etc and this is all fair enough and proper. But the flip side is that it makes it very difficult to actually prove the guilt of a suspect even when it appears the evidence is all there. Beyond all reasonable doubt is such a high burden of proof. For high stakes stuff like murder etc the time and money is rightly invested to make sure the evidence is gathered. But to the average Joe Bloggs in the street who is affected by what is known as "volume crime" it becomes much more difficult. As such the Police are the scapegoats for the publics frustration. Couple this with dangerously low officer numbers (unless there's a football match then there seems to be hundreds of us- this adds to the negative public perception), National Crime Recording Standards (literally everything that is reported now has to be recorded as a crime, a large percentage of which is impossible to even begin to prove, so naturally detection rates will fall) and ridiculous levels of bureacracy then you realise what a difficult and thankless task you have. Swimming against the tide every day does become mentally draining.
It feels as though the Police as an organisation ignore the problems because of a stubborn belief that they'll always be able to recruit. More recently the shift has actually become focused on people doing the job short term in order to keep the front line fresh faced and enthusiastic. Old sweats like me are only useful when things go wrong and they need an experienced head to sort it out. But yet I've been overlooked for promotion a few times now whilst watching officers with 3 years in become Sgts. Maybe it's my lovable optimistic nature thats stopping me progressing
Sorry for the whinge. The crux of the matter is being a cop has become very much a love/hate affair. I'll always love the job and have had some amazing experiences, met some great people and I know I've done a lot of work to be proud of. But I'm at an age now where I feel if I did this for another 15-20 years then I'd retire with a pretty decent Pension (although vastly less than the one I signed up for!) then die of a heart attack the next day! As negative as that sounds I've lost count of how many retired cops I know who have not lived to see 2 years of their hard earned pensions.
I'd love to get on the railways but I doubt I'd pass the assessment centre for driver. I'm bloody rubbish at the dots test, I've had a few online practices and can't seem to get the hang of it. But anyway thanks for reading
You won’t know unless you apply and find out. You’ve posted a very extensive and detailed explanation about what’s wrong with the police and how frankly, p*ssed off with it you are. Sounds like you just need to bite the bullet and get out? The problem a lot of the time is (and I’m not saying this is the case with you of course), people will moan about their job, but are happy enough to stay there and moan about it. If someone truly detests their job, they should at the very least be applying for other jobs.
C J Snarzell
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UVB76
Reading your post has at least provided me with some reassurance that I'm glad I jumped ship from copworld three years ago. It's amazing how many of us just on this forum share the same thoughts and experiences of a policing service which just eats away at you from the inside out.
As Stigy has said, just throw your cap in the ring for any TOC role that takes your fancy. Train driving isn't for me and maybe it's not for you either, but there are plenty of other customer based roles that are just as rewarding (and alot of them don't involve tests!).
Applying for job vacancies is a massive uphill struggle with emense competition. The fallout of the Covid pandemic means that jobs are now in more demand than ever before. As its been highlighted time and time again on here - HR's are recieving huge volumes of applicants for most TOC roles, so strong perciverance and optimism goes a long way.
I'd look at setting yourself a goal of 6 months - 2 years, of progressing across to the railway industry if that's what you want to move on to. From my own experience, it isn't an over night switch - you have to he realistic and consider recruitment for many roles can take months & months of waiting and anticipation.
I do wish you well and hope you can eventually make that change of career in the future.
CJ
Reading your post has at least provided me with some reassurance that I'm glad I jumped ship from copworld three years ago. It's amazing how many of us just on this forum share the same thoughts and experiences of a policing service which just eats away at you from the inside out.
As Stigy has said, just throw your cap in the ring for any TOC role that takes your fancy. Train driving isn't for me and maybe it's not for you either, but there are plenty of other customer based roles that are just as rewarding (and alot of them don't involve tests!).
Applying for job vacancies is a massive uphill struggle with emense competition. The fallout of the Covid pandemic means that jobs are now in more demand than ever before. As its been highlighted time and time again on here - HR's are recieving huge volumes of applicants for most TOC roles, so strong perciverance and optimism goes a long way.
I'd look at setting yourself a goal of 6 months - 2 years, of progressing across to the railway industry if that's what you want to move on to. From my own experience, it isn't an over night switch - you have to he realistic and consider recruitment for many roles can take months & months of waiting and anticipation.
I do wish you well and hope you can eventually make that change of career in the future.
CJ
Cheers for the responses guys.
Stigy you're absolutely spot on, I know plenty of professional moaners in the job and I think a lot of them aren't happy unless they're moaning! I have applied for a TOC, which is what brought me to this excellent forum and how I found out a bit more about the dreaded dots test! But it's true, nothing ventured nothing gained. I'm also interested in the signaller role and am signed up with NR for alerts for any recruitment campaigns local to me. I'm taking those steps and seeing how it goes. I'm willing to put the work in and it's only me who can make those changes.
CJ, great advice. I've provisionally set myself a two year target. I know how competitive it is getting into the railways and take on board what you say about the high volumes of applicants. The COVID situation has really been a game changer in so many ways (and trust me I could write a few whingeing posts about Policing through the pandemic lol!).
All that said though I am lucky that my job is secure and I remained employed throughout the pandemic when so many are struggling. It can be easy to lose sight of that at times. Thanks for your well wishes
Stigy you're absolutely spot on, I know plenty of professional moaners in the job and I think a lot of them aren't happy unless they're moaning! I have applied for a TOC, which is what brought me to this excellent forum and how I found out a bit more about the dreaded dots test! But it's true, nothing ventured nothing gained. I'm also interested in the signaller role and am signed up with NR for alerts for any recruitment campaigns local to me. I'm taking those steps and seeing how it goes. I'm willing to put the work in and it's only me who can make those changes.
CJ, great advice. I've provisionally set myself a two year target. I know how competitive it is getting into the railways and take on board what you say about the high volumes of applicants. The COVID situation has really been a game changer in so many ways (and trust me I could write a few whingeing posts about Policing through the pandemic lol!).
All that said though I am lucky that my job is secure and I remained employed throughout the pandemic when so many are struggling. It can be easy to lose sight of that at times. Thanks for your well wishes
2857
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Don't forget that there's other jobs on the railway, I left after 13 yrs and earn more as a guard than in the job. It's not just financial though as the weight off your shoulders and mental change is worth more than the money.
C J Snarzell
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Well done mate. I'm ex-police - I had a mixture of relief and sadness when I handed in my notice to cop world. I was glad to see the back of the crap I had to put up with but equally sad to leave the policing 'family'.
CJ
Dan I left wmp in March and started with wmt in May. It's weird handing your notice in and is taking some getting used to not having the warrant card, but it is a whole different world outside and you actually get treated like an adult.
The training is great but you do have to put the time in at home as well.
Also get used to being sent home for the odd week or two between training and maybe a 6 to 12 month wait at home before actually being able to drive a train. That's what we are being told presently but may change.
Well done and enjoy the change
I think it will be alot more than 6 months at home before u start driving a train, as trainees from September, October and November 2019 course are still at home. They all need to return and complete 230 hours driving and pass out before trainees from 2020 start driving. And sometimes after completing the 230 hours it could take another 3-4 weeks for a manager to be available to do the pass out which can take another 7 days.
Oh absolutely that was just a minimum but more likely 12 months plus in reality.
19 years in come Dec (42 years old), skipper since 2007. Been placed in a talent pool and cannot wait to get started. Things of course will inevitably change with the government taking more control, but look what happened with Winsor and our 87 pensions. Least the railway have a union with teeth.
I'm relishing the challenges the role will bring that will safely take me into retirement, rathere than running the gauntlet daily waiting for the next terrorist attack, critical incident, officer seriously injured. Enough is enough for me and as say I can't wait.
I'll still bleed blue and always will but have to look to a more secure and lucrative future
I'm relishing the challenges the role will bring that will safely take me into retirement, rathere than running the gauntlet daily waiting for the next terrorist attack, critical incident, officer seriously injured. Enough is enough for me and as say I can't wait.
I'll still bleed blue and always will but have to look to a more secure and lucrative future
C J Snarzell
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I do believe there needs to be a Royal Commission into Policing. The last one was in 1960, which was as a result of a couple of policing scandals in the 1950s.
To have gone sixty years without any further policing reviews is a scandal in itself. The foundations for how the police function were built around the nine key principles that were written by Sir Robert Peel in the 1800s. Sadly, in the last twenty years, policing is only covering three of Sir Robert's principles which is surely an obvious indication that policing isn't actually policing anymore.
A Royal Commission is unlikely to take place anytime soon, certainly under the present government - all public funding is being ploughed into the Covid19 enquiry beginning next year.
I do actually think the only way for policing to turn a corner is for it to hit a real crisis which makes the parliament figures sit up and realise what a clusterf**k it all is.
I could write a book about my own theories about why policing is so bad and where it needs to change. My biggest agendas would be for external agencies like the NHS to take more responsibility for mental health incidents - even setting up civilian medically trained response teams. My other agenda would be to scrap all the direct entry, academic nonsense to stop incompetent idiots joining the service straight at Inspector or Superintendent level or being fast tracked to senior leadership in five years.
I'd say all police officers join the job with enthusiasm and a passion for policing, but sadly this is eroded after a few years. An older cop due for retirement once said to me in 2003 - ''give it twenty years and you'll despise this job''. I'd actually say it's less than five years now for the job to 'burn' you.
CJ
To have gone sixty years without any further policing reviews is a scandal in itself. The foundations for how the police function were built around the nine key principles that were written by Sir Robert Peel in the 1800s. Sadly, in the last twenty years, policing is only covering three of Sir Robert's principles which is surely an obvious indication that policing isn't actually policing anymore.
A Royal Commission is unlikely to take place anytime soon, certainly under the present government - all public funding is being ploughed into the Covid19 enquiry beginning next year.
I do actually think the only way for policing to turn a corner is for it to hit a real crisis which makes the parliament figures sit up and realise what a clusterf**k it all is.
I could write a book about my own theories about why policing is so bad and where it needs to change. My biggest agendas would be for external agencies like the NHS to take more responsibility for mental health incidents - even setting up civilian medically trained response teams. My other agenda would be to scrap all the direct entry, academic nonsense to stop incompetent idiots joining the service straight at Inspector or Superintendent level or being fast tracked to senior leadership in five years.
I'd say all police officers join the job with enthusiasm and a passion for policing, but sadly this is eroded after a few years. An older cop due for retirement once said to me in 2003 - ''give it twenty years and you'll despise this job''. I'd actually say it's less than five years now for the job to 'burn' you.
CJ
dk1
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