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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

LNW-GW Joint

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I would personally expect the first class coach (presumably behind the DVT after the re-form), to be at the Manchester end, but that's just what I would expect. I doubt the 67s would be allowed to be under the trainshed at Piccadilly for emission reasons.
It doesn't matter which way round a TfW Mk4 set is at Piccadilly main shed, the loco will still be under the roof.
 
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Watershed

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And yet most of the Intercity operators manage to keep their sets the right way around the vast majority of the time, on networks much more complex then what the TfW sets will be working? Yes the whole TfW network is quite complicated, but these sets will only be working two routes.

These very same trains were virtually always kept with the DVT at the King's Cross end in their previous career on the ECML. Why on earth can't TfW aim for the same thing?
The only route which ever caused the Mk4s to turn around was using High Level Bridge in Newcastle - which was an easy fix when it occasionally happened, due to the flexible nature of the layout there.

The same can't be said on TfW's network. Sure, you could diagram them such that they normally end up the "right" way around.

But as soon as you divert via Crewe when booked via Wrexham (or vice versa), or swap between routes at Piccadilly, or reverse at Maindee East, or use the Swansea avoider, the set ends up the "wrong" way round. With no easy fix.

And there really are better uses of drivers than getting a set turned back around by running a "tour de Cheshire".

To be fair it wasn't so much the ventilation issues that worried me (as you say, 68s cope ok) but more of a noise problem. 67s with ETH running are very noisy.
As are 68s. Certainly not as easy to hear announcements, but life goes on.
 

craigybagel

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The only route which ever caused the Mk4s to turn around was using High Level Bridge in Newcastle - which was an easy fix when it occasionally happened, due to the flexible nature of the layout there.

The same can't be said on TfW's network. Sure, you could diagram them such that they normally end up the "right" way around.

But as soon as you divert via Crewe when booked via Wrexham (or vice versa), or swap between routes at Piccadilly, or reverse at Maindee East, or use the Swansea avoider, the set ends up the "wrong" way round. With no easy fix.

And there really are better uses of drivers than getting a set turned back around by running a "tour de Cheshire".
As I said above, diversions via Crewe or Wrexham when booked the other way are very rare, they cause a lot of complications. Diversions via Maindee West are very rare (they require a Cardiff crew as Crewe no longer sign), they won't have any booked work beyond Swansea so no reason for Swansea Avoider to be an issue, they won't be swapping between routes at Piccadilly, and it's likely most sets will be stabled at Canton overnight where there's a handy triangle in close proximity.

And it's not just LNER - Avanti and GWR have much more complicated networks and they don't seem to struggle. Obviously wrong way sets happen occasionally but it's very rare. I'm confused as to why you're so against the idea at TfW when it's the norm at so many other TOCs.

It doesn't matter which way round a TfW Mk4 set is at Piccadilly main shed, the loco will still be under the roof.

As are 68s. Certainly not as easy to hear announcements, but life goes on.
True, but as I said above 68s aren't as noisy as 67s and my own experience at Piccadilly is that the noise is worse when the engine is at the concourse end. I'm not saying it should or it will be changed, I'm just wondering openly if it will be taken into consideration?
 

wobman

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As I said above, diversions via Crewe or Wrexham when booked the other way are very rare, they cause a lot of complications. Diversions via Maindee West are very rare (they require a Cardiff crew as Crewe no longer sign), they won't have any booked work beyond Swansea so no reason for Swansea Avoider to be an issue, they won't be swapping between routes at Piccadilly, and it's likely most sets will be stabled at Canton overnight where there's a handy triangle in close proximity.

And it's not just LNER - Avanti and GWR have much more complicated networks and they don't seem to struggle. Obviously wrong way sets happen occasionally but it's very rare. I'm confused as to why you're so against the idea at TfW when it's the norm at so many other TOCs.




True, but as I said above 68s aren't as noisy as 67s and my own experience at Piccadilly is that the noise is worse when the engine is at the concourse end. I'm not saying it should or it will be changed, I'm just wondering openly if it will be taken into consideration?
I think we all know things like the loco locations won't be taken into consideration, that's something that will be realised once the complaints start coming in.
How long is the dwell time at Piccadilly on them jobs ???

When atw ran the Holyhead to Manchester mk3s sets, they parked up at longsight before there return trip. But that was out of P13/P14.
 

Watershed

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And it's not just LNER - Avanti and GWR have much more complicated networks and they don't seem to struggle. Obviously wrong way sets happen occasionally but it's very rare. I'm confused as to why you're so against the idea at TfW when it's the norm at so many other TOCs.
Simply because it's a waste of driver resources. We're not talking about an 11 coach train where being at the wrong end of the platform means a long walk - these are 4 or 5 coach trains, so if they're the wrong way round it's hardly the end of the world.

Obviously it'd be nice to guarantee which way round the trains are, but I'd rather TfW focused on actually running something closer to their full timetable.
 

Caaardiff

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Whichever way around the formation is will have the loco at the concourse end at either Swansea or Manchester regardless. Although at Swansea there's no roof over the track there's still the noise issue







If its first class that's the issue and it does end up the wrong way around after diverting, it can simply turn back the right way using the Swansea avoider. So it's only one journey that will be affected.
 

craigybagel

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How long is the dwell time at Piccadilly on them jobs ???
As per the public timetable it's 18 minutes. In reality it's anywhere up to 25.
Simply because it's a waste of driver resources. We're not talking about an 11 coach train where being at the wrong end of the platform means a long walk - these are 4 or 5 coach trains, so if they're the wrong way round it's hardly the end of the world.

Obviously it'd be nice to guarantee which way round the trains are, but I'd rather TfW focused on actually running something closer to their full timetable.
No, but TfW are going into a lot of effort to make these premium services work, and things like this do matter. Dwell times are already going to be longer than with the 197s owing to the door positions - making people run down the platform because they're at the wrong end of the train isn't going to help.

As per your point on limited resources, I entirely agree with you - but I've not seen any evidence of TfW cancelling services to make sure trains are the right way round. I'm only aware of the turning trip occuring once so far, which was done on a Sunday using drivers who had no other work.

In the future when all sets are in service, I'm sure if sets do end up the wrong way round it'll only take until they're at Swansea, or stabled overnight at Canton, for them to be turned again in minutes.
 

wobman

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What length are the Mk4s going to running once they all have SDO fitted?
It would make sence to run the services in long formations now they are fitted with the SDO mods, especially on the 2 routes chosen at busy times.
 

43096

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What length are the Mk4s going to running once they all have SDO fitted?
It would make sence to run the services in long formations now they are fitted with the SDO mods, especially on the 2 routes chosen at busy times.
All the sets are planned to be formed of 5 cars plus a DVT. Formation expected to be:
67 - TOE - TO - TOD - SV - FOD - DVT
 

mangyiscute

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Hi, I was just wondering if the current class 67 services that TfW run are actually running, as when I asked them on Twitter a couple of weeks ago they told me they weren't running, so I was wondering if they are. The services mapped for 67025 aren't shown to have a locomotive on RTT despite almost all other TfW services having this feature
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Hi, I was just wondering if the current class 67 services that TfW run are actually running, as when I asked them on Twitter a couple of weeks ago they told me they weren't running, so I was wondering if they are. The services mapped for 67025 aren't shown to have a locomotive on RTT despite almost all other TfW services having this feature
I saw the half ten sat at Cardiff Central today while going to my lecture.
 

FrodshamJnct

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Hi, I was just wondering if the current class 67 services that TfW run are actually running, as when I asked them on Twitter a couple of weeks ago they told me they weren't running, so I was wondering if they are. The services mapped for 67025 aren't shown to have a locomotive on RTT despite almost all other TfW services having this feature

Depends on the day and if there are enough crew available, but they have been running. Due to the way RTT works it’s unable to show if it’s a loco on the working or not. Might be worth joining ‘The Official Class 67 Group’ on Facebook if you’re on it, as the gen is posted on there.
 

Andy Pacer

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Depends on the day and if there are enough crew available, but they have been running. Due to the way RTT works it’s unable to show if it’s a loco on the working or not. Might be worth joining ‘The Official Class 67 Group’ on Facebook if you’re on it, as the gen is posted on there.
Presumably though if its not a 67 it will show the unit(s) allocated instead?
 

Caaardiff

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There appears to have been different influences over the past few weeks. Train crew knowledge being the main, maintenance/faults on them another, and more recently the weather disruption has meant they havent been used. Having them out in service where there's a large possibility of disruption leads the complications. The lack of Depot/stabling points and train crew knowledge opens up the possibility of complications if turning back on unplanned workings, such as when the marches had been shut.
 

3973EXL

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craigybagel

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According to a article in the latest modern railways instead of one in every 3 Manchester to South Wales services being loco hauled they considering one in every 2 services as they plan on turning them round at Cardiff with a unit going forward from Cardiff to Swansea and west wales apart from one loco hauled service a day running to/ from Swansea
I thought it might be useful to see this post from the TfW overcrowding thread discussed on the dedicated MKIV thread.
 

SuperLuke2334

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I thought it might be useful to see this post from the TfW overcrowding thread discussed on the dedicated MKIV thread.
It's an interesting point. I do feel it could work because then the MKIV sets would be nearer to one of their main maintenance depots, but I don't think some commuters would be very pleased with the concept of a train change at Cardiff Central. However, I don't really know the figures at different times of the day / season so maybe someone could enlighten us on roughly how many this could affect.
 

Mollman

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I thought it might be useful to see this post from the TfW overcrowding thread discussed on the dedicated MKIV thread.

It's an interesting point. I do feel it could work because then the MKIV sets would be nearer to one of their main maintenance depots, but I don't think some commuters would be very pleased with the concept of a train change at Cardiff Central. However, I don't really know the figures at different times of the day / season so maybe someone could enlighten us on roughly how many this could affect.

I guess there is a trade off here. Running every two hours words better with the timetable as the MKIVs can be on the journeys which run non-stop between Crewe and Shrewsbury, whilst the 197s with their better acceleration are more suited to the other hour when services do stop at intermediates. Terminating at Cardiff does cut Swansea and West Wales off from the Borders and North West England (I used to use it quite regularly from Crewe to Swansea), however this would only be every other hour - perhaps if it all works out right the Liverpool - Cardiff train could be extended through to Swansea and West Wales instead.
 

krus_aragon

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perhaps if it all works out right the Liverpool - Cardiff train could be extended through to Swansea and West Wales instead.
No *that* is an interesting idea. Handing the Milford Haven service onto the Liverpool service would leave the Manchester-South Wales free to operate as Manchester-Cardiff by MkIV two-hourly, Manchester-Swansea by 197 two-hourly in the intervening hours. That'd leave a gap in Cardiff-Swansea/Carmarthen provision in the alternate hours, but I could see that being something that gets picked up by an improved Swanline service, or other initiatives in the area.

(Would Liverpool to Milford with couping/decoupling at Chester be too risky for the timetable planners, I wonder?)
 

craigybagel

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I guess there is a trade off here. Running every two hours words better with the timetable as the MKIVs can be on the journeys which run non-stop between Crewe and Shrewsbury, whilst the 197s with their better acceleration are more suited to the other hour when services do stop at intermediates.
That would require changing which hour the intermediate stations get served by the long distance services though - at the moment, broadly speaking a service that runs non stop on its way to Manchester stops at the intermediates on the way back, and vice versa.

As it stands, loco hauled services are restricted to 70mph on that section whereas DMUs can do 90mph, so it would certainly help timetabling not having the loco hauled services stop.
Terminating at Cardiff does cut Swansea and West Wales off from the Borders and North West England (I used to use it quite regularly from Crewe to Swansea), however this would only be every other hour - perhaps if it all works out right the Liverpool - Cardiff train could be extended through to Swansea and West Wales instead.

No *that* is an interesting idea. Handing the Milford Haven service onto the Liverpool service would leave the Manchester-South Wales free to operate as Manchester-Cardiff by MkIV two-hourly, Manchester-Swansea by 197 two-hourly in the intervening hours. That'd leave a gap in Cardiff-Swansea/Carmarthen provision in the alternate hours, but I could see that being something that gets picked up by an improved Swanline service, or other initiatives in the area.

(Would Liverpool to Milford with couping/decoupling at Chester be too risky for the timetable planners, I wonder?)
It seems likely that the Cardiff - Holyhead and Cardiff - Liverpool services will run in the same paths on alternate hours, so extending them through to West Wales could be an option. I could see a world where these services run all stops Chester - Cardiff, and the Manchesters run limited stops alternating between MKIVs and 1st class fitted 197s. It would certainly be simpler then what it looked at one point we were heading towards, with random Manchester - Swansea MKIV services breaking up the Takt.

That said, 2 hourly MKIVs going to Manchester would require 4 sets - meaning that combined with the 3 daily Holyhead services it would require 6 sets out of 7 in use every day, which might prove optimistic.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.
 

SuperLuke2334

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As it stands, loco hauled services are restricted to 70mph on that section whereas DMUs can do 90mph, so it would certainly help timetabling not having the loco hauled services stop.
Do you know if there are any plans to change this, seeing as the Mk3 sets were exempt? Wondering if an exemption could be made to help timetabling?
 

craigybagel

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Do you know if there are any plans to change this, seeing as the Mk3 sets were exempt? Wondering if an exemption could be made to help timetabling?
The MkIIIs were only exempt South of Shrewsbury. On the rare occasions they went Shrewsbury - Crewe, they were also limited to 70. They were also not able to use the enhanced speeds between Shrewsbury and Chester and Newport and Cardiff.

TfW did ask Network Rail for a bigger exemption this time round, to run at MU and HST speeds everywhere, but so far no exemption has been given, so even between Shrewsbury and Newport the MkIVs are running for now at the lower speeds.
 

SuperLuke2334

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The MkIIIs were only exempt South of Shrewsbury. On the rare occasions they went Shrewsbury - Crewe, they were also limited to 70. They were also not able to use the enhanced speeds between Shrewsbury and Chester and Newport and Cardiff.

TfW did ask Network Rail for a bigger exemption this time round, to run at MU and HST speeds everywhere, but so far no exemption has been given, so even between Shrewsbury and Newport the MkIVs are running for now at the lower speeds.
Thanks for the corrections on the Mk3s. That's a shame that no exemption has been given, but hopefully they will be pushing harder in time for the December timetable with larger introduction of MkIVs.
 

craigybagel

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Thanks for the corrections on the Mk3s. That's a shame that no exemption has been given, but hopefully they will be pushing harder in time for the December timetable with larger introduction of MkIVs.
Fingers crossed. The gradients and number of station stops South of Shrewsbury are such that it doesn't make too big a difference, but running at 70 rather than 90 non stop between Crewe and Shrewsbury costs about 5 minutes.

That said, MKIVs aren't actually cleared at all for that stetch of line at any speed, so getting that fixed has to be the top priority right now
 

krus_aragon

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It seems likely that the Cardiff - Holyhead and Cardiff - Liverpool services will run in the same paths on alternate hours, so extending them through to West Wales could be an option. I could see a world where these services run all stops Chester - Cardiff, and the Manchesters run limited stops alternating between MKIVs and 1st class fitted 197s. It would certainly be simpler then what it looked at one point we were heading towards, with random Manchester - Swansea MKIV services breaking up the Takt.
A possible fly in the ointment there is the fact that many of the Cardiff-Holyhead services will be MkIV operated, so it'd be mainly the Liverpool services that run through to West Wales. As you state, there'd be no slack in the MkIV fleet to go west of Cardiff.

(Maybe the crayon fairy could persuade LNER to buy a few more IEPs and release their remaining MkIVs for us, to make things easier? :P)
 

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