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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

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HamworthyGoods

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I did say booked ;)
At least with that one it comes off Crewe at 05:13 so get plenty of prior warning if it is likely to be swapped.


Doesn't look promising I'm afraid, must be an issue with it as showing 5V33 which later forms 1W19 as a unit.

DMU in replacing TfW LHCS shocker! The availability of these hauled sets it’s shocking, very little point continually increasing the diagrams if they can’t deliver it.
 
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sd0733

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DMU in replacing TfW LHCS shocker! The availability of these hauled sets it’s shocking, very little point continually increasing the diagrams if they can’t deliver it.
It seems to have actually gone backwards recently, a lot was pre-planned but now its not.

Doesn't look like the set that ended Holyhead on Friday is coming off either.
 

sd0733

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Topological

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Shows as a 158 from Cardiff now.

Was funny that it stayed 197 for so long.

Not funny that the Mk4 are still not running what they are supposed to. Only 2 departures from Cardiff to Manchester today.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Shows as a 158 from Cardiff now.

Was funny that it stayed 197 for so long.

Not funny that the Mk4 are still not running what they are supposed to. Only 2 departures from Cardiff to Manchester today.

Not exactly surprising the LHCS aren’t doing what they should be, they struggled before diagram change which meant increasing diagram numbers was only ever really going to be an on paper exercise and far from reality.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Not exactly surprising the LHCS aren’t doing what they should be, they struggled before diagram change which meant increasing diagram numbers was only ever really going to be an on paper exercise and far from reality.
I don’t want to be “that guy” but the fact 67+MK4 sets are even running is nothing but a vanity project. More 197s would have been perfectly suitable, and arguably more so, for a totally common mainline fleet.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I don’t want to be “that guy” but the fact 67+MK4 sets are even running is nothing but a vanity project. More 197s would have been perfectly suitable, and arguably more so, for a totally common mainline fleet.

Quite correct, look at the various reworking old stock projects that haven’t exactly proven a huge success, Scotrail HSTs, SWR 442s and now these sets.

History shows tinkering around with old trains often doesn’t work too well, the 442’s predecessors that were left over were formed into 6REPs with the motor car in the middle, they never really worked especially well and were dispensed with at the first opportunity.
 

Techniquest

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67010 was making a great noise on the 103x from Hereford towards Cardiff this morning, all being well I guess this will do the 1249 back?
 

Michael.Y

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67010 was making a great noise on the 103x from Hereford towards Cardiff this morning, all being well I guess this will do the 1249 back?
Not according to RTT or PIS. Probably needs a clean in the sidings or something. But given the amount of shuffling that's already happened today, who knows any more
 

Michael.Y

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Manchie before ours was a late F&S 150/2.

Loads of room on our 3 car. We've caught it up in Salop. Wonder how many folks would have preferred to take the hour delay in favour of a slightly more comfortable journey
 

Rhydgaled

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I don’t want to be “that guy” but the fact 67+MK4 sets are even running is nothing but a vanity project. More 197s would have been perfectly suitable, and arguably more so, for a totally common mainline fleet.
It's like they're trying to deliberately appease old-school enthusiasts, which if true, suggests some TOCs need to sort their priorities out, frankly.
I thought the railway was supposed to be pivoting towards leisure traffic (and away from business/commuting) post-COVID?
Informed Sources (Modern Railways said:
they need to be the 'right' trains' in terms of passenger accomodation. This ranges from seating layouts - families favour facing pairs rather than 'airline seating' - to door location and catering provision.
The class 197 design, aside perhaps from the rather odd catering provision, appears to be aimed squarely at the commuter market. There is perhaps an argument to be made that class 158s and 175s, had more of them been available, would have been a better choice than the mark 4s. However, the fact is there were no spare 158s or 175s available to deliver the necessary increase in capacity, so there isn't really an alternative to the mark 4s.

That said, perhaps TfW should have gone for an all-standard formation instead of having a first class coach, particularly given that TfW are unable to form the 2+5 sets as they wanted (with first class at one end) and instead one coach of standard will be marooned the other side of first class. This will of course create similar issues to running a pair of non-gangwayed units (such as 175s) in multiple.

RTT showing 3 car 175. Bearable - coach B will be unreserved at least.
Have TfW reinstated reservations then as the last few times I've tried to book a journey they have appeared to be unreservable throughout? At most I have been issued with a 'counted place' reservation card, never an actual seat number.
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought the railway was supposed to be pivoting towards leisure traffic (and away from business/commuting) post-COVID? The class 197 design, aside perhaps from the rather odd catering provision, appears to be aimed squarely at the commuter market.

This depends on what seating you put in it and in what layout. The 197 has a low density layout with quite comfortable seats (yes, they're Sophias, but they have a different cushion from the problem ones). The bodyshell is basically the same as the 397 other than the position of the doors.

In this context it's a regional express unit, and all TfW's services are either regional or regional express in nature, however much they might overtalk them.

Have TfW reinstated reservations then as the last few times I've tried to book a journey they have appeared to be unreservable throughout? At most I have been issued with a 'counted place' reservation card, never an actual seat number.

No reservations on TfW at present that I know of. I imagine they might return when the 197s are fully rolled out so it's consistent what you get on a given service.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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There is perhaps an argument to be made that class 158s and 175s, had more of them been available, would have been a better choice than the mark 4s. However, the fact is there were no spare 158s or 175s available to deliver the necessary increase in capacity, so there isn't really an alternative to the mark 4s.
Yes there is. Ordering MORE 197s, obviously.
 

Topological

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I do not really get the obsession with having doors at the end of carriages. It is how trains used to be, but that does not mean they have to be like that. I find that the motivations for 1/3 and 2/3 on a commuter train do actually apply on long distance too. My only reasons for disliking 150s on the Marches is that they have lower capacities, no air conditioning and nowhere to put luggage. The 158s and 2-car 175s at least rectify the capacity to some extent.

To that end having at least a 3 car 197 is going to be a very welcome change. If indeed they are 5 car services between Swansea and Manchester that is going to be a huge step up.

We should not forget that major flows on the Marches are people doing short sections, either out of Cardiff or Manchester (and to a lesser extent Hereford and Shrewsbury) so the use of units suitable for that flow is sensible.

The big advantage of the MK4 set is it has 2.5 carriages (soon to be 3.5) in standard and there is an option to pay 1st to get a seat. A 5 car 197 negates that advantage.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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The big advantage of the MK4 set is it has 2.5 carriages (soon to be 3.5) in standard and there is an option to pay 1st to get a seat. A 5 car 197 negates that advantage.
No... the only difference in terms of carriages is a 5-MK4 has 3.5 standard and 1 first, but a 5-197 will have 4.5 standard and 0.5 first. First is very poorly used currently, so I'd say the 197 actually caters to demand better there, offering an additional carriage of standard class accommodation. They also don't have vestibules, so potentially even more space for seats, though I might be clutching at straws with that last bit.
 

SuperLuke2334

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No... the only difference in terms of carriages is a 5-MK4 has 3.5 standard and 1 first, but a 5-197 will have 4.5 standard and 0.5 first. First is very poorly used currently, so I'd say the 197 actually caters to demand better there, offering an additional carriage of standard class accommodation. They also don't have vestibules, so potentially even more space for seats, though I might be clutching at straws with that last bit.
I think you'll be shocked to find that First is actually very well used on most services now, it's always quite full when it passes me.
 

Topological

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No... the only difference in terms of carriages is a 5-MK4 has 3.5 standard and 1 first, but a 5-197 will have 4.5 standard and 0.5 first. First is very poorly used currently, so I'd say the 197 actually caters to demand better there, offering an additional carriage of standard class accommodation. They also don't have vestibules, so potentially even more space for seats, though I might be clutching at straws with that last bit.
Or missing the "negate" in my post ;)

On the last part, I think the catering cupboard has an impact on the 197. Would still expect an increase in standard capacity for a 3+2 197 versus the Mk4 set.

That 0.5 first is great for people buying advances or using other cheap upgrades. Rather like off-peak pendolinos. We enjoy it but does it really need to be there?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Or missing the "negate" in my post ;)

On the last part, I think the catering cupboard has an impact on the 197. Would still expect an increase in standard capacity for a 3+2 197 versus the Mk4 set.

That 0.5 first is great for people buying advances or using other cheap upgrades. Rather like off-peak pendolinos. We enjoy it but does it really need to be there?
Oh I do apologise for misreading that. It's 1am in Australia and my tired eyes saw negates and thought it meant "without"/"doesn't have" :oops:
 
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