Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[43096]

HD = Holyhead is my understanding. While the Mk2/3 rakes always overnighted at Holyhead, with three services a day per diagram they'll alternate between Holyhead and Cardiff.

HD is indeed Holyhead, but the sets are maintained at Crewe (Arriva Traincare).

I think POD is an autocorrect typo for FOD, being a First Open carriage with Disabled access.

POD = Pullman Open Disabled. The Mark 4 first class vehicles have been designated like this from new.

 

[Doveymain158]

The problem with Holyhead is there's no facilities for Mk4s and 67s to be maintained, it just has a fuel road.
They are building more sidings fir unit storage, as the Mk4s and some 197s are going to get stored there overnight in the future.

I'm hearing Landore will be the heavy maintenance facilties fir these m4s in the future, especially once the ex GC stock are finished with there SDO upgrades.

Landore would be the idea site for the fleet although it might need upgrades, sidings long enough a triangle plus wash plant.

 

[craigybagel]

I wouldn't read too much into the whole Holyhead thing, it's really just a nice short way of identifying each set when you don't have unit numbers to play with.

It's also worth pointing out that all TfW units in service each day follow certain diagram numbers which also contain two letters identifying their home depot. Diagrams booked for 175s all start with CH diagrams for Chester, diagrams booked for 158s MN for Machynlleth, and all other diagrams, including those booked to be worked by MKIVs, start with CF for Cardiff.

Going forward, Holyhead is never likely be anything more than a fueling and stabling point.

 

[43 302]

What is POD and TSOD?

Pullman Open Disabled & Tourist Second Open Disabled. Or Standard for the functional members of society!

 

[craigybagel]

Landore would be the idea site for the fleet although it might need upgrades, sidings long enough a triangle plus wash plant.

The problem with Landore is it's a long way from any traincrew depot. It's alright using it for the odd bit of heavy maintenance, or for PRM works on 153s as now, but it's a bit more awkward using it for regular stabling when your drivers and guards (and you need both to prep a MKIV rake) are based an hour down the M4 in Cardiff. I'd be very surprised if they're regularly booked to be stabled anywhere other than Holyhead, Canton and Crewe every night.

 

[krus_aragon]

They are building more sidings fir unit storage, as the Mk4s and some 197s are going to get stored there overnight in the future.

Reading the tealeaves, is this to make room for stabling units on the new Bangor-Manchester diagrams?

(My understanding of the planned Mk4 diagrams was only one rake would overnight at Holyhead, unless they're planning on having a spare kept there.)

 

[craigybagel]

Reading the tealeaves, is this to make room for stabling units on the new Bangor-Manchester diagrams?

(My understanding of the planned Mk4 diagrams was only one rake would overnight at Holyhead, unless they're planning on having a spare kept there.)

It's hard to say for definite because none of us know the exact details of the future timetable, but there's likely to be multiple 197s in Holyhead overnight (as well as the probable one MKIV set). As well as the Bangor - Manchester services they'll also be covering Holyhead - Birmingham, most of the Holyhead - Cardiff services and the Blaneau branch (the unit for that normally comes ECS from Crewe but there's no need for long journeys like that with a uniform fleet so it may well end up stabling in Holyhead as well), so it's very likely you'll need to keep lots of units there every night.

It may also be the case that Avanti plan to stable more units in Holyhead overnight now they have a driver's depot there, requiring even more space.

 

[wobman]

The problem with Landore is it's a long way from any traincrew depot. It's alright using it for the odd bit of heavy maintenance, or for PRM works on 153s as now, but it's a bit more awkward using it for regular stabling when your drivers and guards (and you need both to prep a MKIV rake) are based an hour down the M4 in Cardiff. I'd be very surprised if they're regularly booked to be stabled anywhere other than Holyhead, Canton and Crewe every night.

The logic of the railways had Salop guards taxi to crewe to prep the stock for years, so don't be thinking Cardiff traincrew in taxis to landore is out of the question lol

Taxis to depots 2hrs away is a regular occurance nowadays, I'm not a fan of a 2am taxi journey for 2hrs with a taxi driver 16hrs into his shift ! But that's the madness of how tocs work cross depot cover.....

 

[swt_passenger]

Still not sure why RTT is showing Arlingtons, when they've been going into the TMD for further work on them by Arriva.

I’ve seen this happen quite a few times, the works or depot showing up when expecting the other. On the RTT link you posted it also shows a passing time at “Eastleigh Depot signal 241”, whereas online diagrams show 241 as being the works exit signal, the depot exit signals being 243 and 245. So are schedulers just getting it slightly wrong?

 

[krus_aragon]

It's hard to say for definite because none of us know the exact details of the future timetable, but there's likely to be multiple 197s in Holyhead overnight (as well as the probable one MKIV set). As well as the Bangor - Manchester services they'll also be covering Holyhead - Birmingham, most of the Holyhead - Cardiff services and the Blaneau branch (the unit for that normally comes ECS from Crewe but there's no need for long journeys like that with a uniform fleet so it may well end up stabling in Holyhead as well), so it's very likely you'll need to keep lots of units there every night.

It may also be the case that Avanti plan to stable more units in Holyhead overnight now they have a driver's depot there, requiring even more space.

On re-reading Wobman's earlier message, he may have been describing extra sidings at Canton instead. (That's something I'd heard of, whereas Holyhead extras would be news to me.)

 

[wobman]

On re-reading Wobman's earlier message, he may have been describing extra sidings at Canton instead. (That's something I'd heard of, whereas Holyhead extras would be news to me.)

There's lots of work going on at Holyhead sidings, they are extending the port sidings after the wash.
They need room to store 197s as Chester can't accommodate too many especially as the 175s will be running side by side with the 197s and all the traincrew training. If you look on railways of north Wales on FB there's a post from Jan 3rd showing the work.

 

[hobbm013]

On re-reading Wobman's earlier message, he may have been describing extra sidings at Canton instead. (That's something I'd heard of, whereas Holyhead extras would be news to me.)

Work has been happening at Holyhead for a while now

 

[krus_aragon]

There's lots of work going on at Holyhead sidings, they are extending the port sidings after the wash.
They need room to store 197s as Chester can't accommodate too many especially as the 175s will be running side by side with the 197s and all the traincrew training. If you look on railways of north Wales on FB there's a post from Jan 3rd showing the work.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd just started doubting myself as to whether I'd understood you correctly the first time round.

Work has been happening at Holyhead for a while now

That's what I get for not commuting any further west than Llangefni these days!

 

[craigybagel]

The logic of the railways had Salop guards taxi to crewe to prep the stock for years, so don't be thinking Cardiff traincrew in taxis to landore is out of the question lol

Very true, though I'm also aware how desperate they were to find a cheaper way to work around that! Which they finally managed in its final year of operation by giving the work to Llandudno Junction instead (who ironically despite being much further from Crewe than Shrewsbury were able to get there in time by train).

So yeah, I wouldn't say it's impossible but I'd be very surprised if they went down that route this time. This is meant to be a much bigger and much more long term scheme than the North Wales MKIIIs ever were, so I'd like to hope there's a more efficient solution out there.

 

[47827]

Very true, though I'm also aware how desperate they were to find a cheaper way to work around that! Which they finally managed in its final year of operation by giving the work to Llandudno Junction instead (who ironically despite being much further from Crewe than Shrewsbury were able to get there in time by train).

So yeah, I wouldn't say it's impossible but I'd be very surprised if they went down that route this time. This is meant to be a much bigger and much more long term scheme than the North Wales MKIIIs ever were, so I'd like to hope there's a more efficient solution out there.

Some interesting posts on this again. I'd imagine Crewe guards will be learning mk4s within a year or so in readiness for Swansea/Cardiff-Manchester work which would effectively mean all or most Marches competent TFW drivers and guards should be able to work them. Obviously any sets coming off LNWR wouldn't need alien depot involvement unless it was covering for Crewe based staff. It'll only be Chester and Llandudno Junction that may stay DMU competent only (although never say never with these things) and at Cardiff it'll only be those who work Marches trains that will be trained (although of course many more staff than are required for the 3 services each way for North Wales).

Interesting mention in the earlier post regarding Holyhead drivers at Avanti. How long have they been there now? Recall ATW and previous incarnations still covering the HSTs and loco hauled trains for Virgin up until September 2004 and that work only ending due to new trains that caused depots in the North West and taxis to become the norm. PS out of interest can you summarise which drivers and guards at Avanti sign between Crewe and Chester plus up to Holyhead (other than Holyhead) these days as I've never seen a definitive list?

 

[craigybagel]

Some interesting posts on this again. I'd imagine Crewe guards will be learning mk4s within a year or so in readiness for Swansea/Cardiff-Manchester work which would effectively mean all or most Marches competent TFW drivers and guards should be able to work them. Obviously any sets coming off LNWR wouldn't need alien depot involvement unless it was covering for Crewe based staff.

It's not been 100% confirmed yet that Crewe guards will be learning MKIVs AFAIK but it seems the most likely scenario alright. Crewe guards are the only ones to sign Crewe - Manchester and they work the majority of those services between Crewe and Cardiff as well, so even before you consider the stabling situation it seems a sensible move.
On the drivers side at present one of the three links at Crewe signs them, and the second is due to learn them to support these extra services.

It'll only be Chester and Llandudno Junction that may stay DMU competent only (although never say never with these things) and at Cardiff it'll only be those who work Marches trains that will be trained (although of course many more staff than are required for the 3 services each way for North Wales).

Current plan is all guards on the Mainline side of Cardiff will be signing MKIVs - at present it's just one link that signs them. On the drivers side most drivers at Cardiff in the links that sign the Marches will be signing them but I don't think it's all (again at present only one link signs them).

Interesting mention in the earlier post regarding Holyhead drivers at Avanti. How long have they been there now? Recall ATW and previous incarnations still covering the HSTs and loco hauled trains for Virgin up until September 2004 and that work only ending due to new trains that caused depots in the North West and taxis to become the norm. PS out of interest can you summarise which drivers and guards at Avanti sign between Crewe and Chester plus up to Holyhead (other than Holyhead) these days as I've never seen a definitive list?

The depot has only just opened. Since the then ATW lost the work it was covered by the senior links at Manchester Piccadilly and by all drivers at Liverpool (with Liverpool also working the Wrexham services). Since Holyhead opened Manchester have lost their competency by Liverpool have held on to some of the work for now. On the guards side AFAIK the much longer standing depot for that grade has long since had sole responsibility for all services West of Chester.

By a happy coincidence I happen to be the author of a thread that lists virtually every passenger TOC driver depot in the country and the routes and traction they sign, which can be found here.

 

[MatthewRead]

Are these going to get weekend diagrams or is it just going to be weekdays.

 

[47827]

It's not been 100% confirmed yet that Crewe guards will be learning MKIVs AFAIK but it seems the most likely scenario alright. Crewe guards are the only ones to sign Crewe - Manchester and they work the majority of those services between Crewe and Cardiff as well, so even before you consider the stabling situation it seems a sensible move.
On the drivers side at present one of the three links at Crewe signs them, and the second is due to learn them to support these extra services.


Current plan is all guards on the Mainline side of Cardiff will be signing MKIVs - at present it's just one link that signs them. On the drivers side most drivers at Cardiff in the links that sign the Marches will be signing them but I don't think it's all (again at present only one link signs them).

The depot has only just opened. Since the then ATW lost the work it was covered by the senior links at Manchester Piccadilly and by all drivers at Liverpool (with Liverpool also working the Wrexham services). Since Holyhead opened Manchester have lost their competency by Liverpool have held on to some of the work for now. On the guards side AFAIK the much longer standing depot for that grade has long since had sole responsibility for all services West of Chester.

By a happy coincidence I happen to be the author of a thread that lists virtually every passenger TOC driver depot in the country and the routes and traction they sign, which can be found here.

Thanks for another informative post. It certainly was previously only Holyhead guards West of Chester (or anywhere on the route as these Chester starters were after I stopped using the line regularly). With a situation like that I'd imagine there's still a degree of the olden days with taxis or travelling passenger to cover an odd service that there's no working into or back off. The Sunday morning 1D87 (outside of the summer certainly) for many years involved early morning taxis for a guard and driver (due to being a HST or class 47 rostered each week) all the way to Crewe as on paper the train was missed by the first eastbound services. Often a late runner due to WCML Sunday farces or overrunning track works the first arrival off Holyhead would roll in and make it to their annoyance.

Will have a browse at that link thanks as sounds like one for an occasional moment of boredom or curiosity. Must have been some task compiling such a list.

Although it's far more likely I'll remain a spectator to these mk4 services I still have a mild passing interest in how these things are resourced and done plus will be interesting to see the final diagrams.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Just to confirm that they are back in service today. HD02 is on 1V91 and HD03 is on 1W91

 

[wobman]

There's been talk of Llandudno Junction drivers eventually signing the Mk4s one day, as there's no cross depot cover for the Holyhead drivers and there's regularly cancelled services due to no driver availability.
This would make sense as no Chester links sign the Mk4s, it's been interesting when the stock has been stabled at Chester in the yard over the years.

The mod work on the ex GC Mk4s will make them more useful and easier to operate, the SDO mods are being added to the existing Mk4s once they get there refurbishment. It would enable better stock utilisation especially at short platforms. I know there's a lot of political pressure for the Mk4s to stop at Shotton as that's going to be an interchange station in the future.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 12/02 1020 Doncaster Works - Eastleigh TMD
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06228/2022-02-12/detailed - Caped

 

[SuperLuke2334]

STP 12/02 1020 Doncaster Works - Eastleigh TMD
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06228/2022-02-12/detailed

Looks like they're really getting on with these mods now to get these in service in December. Can't wait for them to come

 

[Class15]

Looks like they're really getting on with these mods now to get these in service in December. Can't wait for them to come

Good news for the Welsh!

 

[47827]

Good news for the Welsh!

Just need to get the crews trained and all used to them now so the service beds down. At present the turns are still just operating ad hoc. Most on here will know the reasons now and I'm certainly not finger pointing as it's been a tough 2 years. There are dozens more staff to get through no doubt including in readiness for 2023.

 

[wobman]

Just need to get the crews trained and all used to them now so the service beds down. At present the turns are still just operating ad hoc. Most on here will know the reasons now and I'm certainly not finger pointing as it's been a tough 2 years. There are dozens more staff to get through no doubt including in readiness for 2023.

There's huge amounts of traincrew training to be completed for the Mk4s, tfw are looking at all of Holyhead and most of Crewe that's just in the north.

 

[Caaardiff]

It seems its all go on training this week. 2 sets were out today and passenger services were covered by other fleets.

 

[47827]

There's huge amounts of traincrew training to be completed for the Mk4s, tfw are looking at all of Holyhead and most of Crewe that's just in the north.

Yes. We have some good insider sources on the subject here and whilst not a user of the services I maintain a passing interest in seeing how it develops.

 

[CDM]

it's a bit more awkward using it for regular stabling when your drivers and guards (and you need both to prep a MKIV rake)

Driver AND guard to prep a Mk4 rake? How have TfW talked themselves into that one?

Sure, you need a Guard to operate a Mk4 rake in passenger service (as with any LHCS) but ECS and prep has always been Driver only.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Driver AND guard to prep a Mk4 rake? How have TfW talked themselves into that one?

Sure, you need a Guard to operate a Mk4 rake in passenger service (as with any LHCS) but ECS and prep has always been Driver only.

Is there no continuity brake test required?

 

[warwickshire]

Is there no continuity brake test required?

Yes a brake continuity test is required before they come into service.