Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[hexagon789]

With the disabled toilet.

Is that because they need one in both classes now?

That would be my first assumption from such an announcement.

That makes more sense now I suppose; though I was kind of happy thinking they were introducing more than 3 workings!

 

[sprinterguy]

Is that because they need one in both classes now?

Based on the vehicles selected so far it seems that only first class will have a disabled toilet?

That makes more sense now I suppose; though I was kind of happy thinking they were introducing more than 3 workings!

It might have been nice to at least see mark 4 sets covering all of the Holyhead - Cardiff services: If they're bi-hourly, then I think that would require five sets in service (Plus a maintenance spare or two).

Speculatively, perhaps the three sets/twelve vehicles decision was based at least partly on leasing the same number of vehicles as the mark 3 rakes at present.

 

[hexagon789]

Based on the vehicles selected so far it seems that only first class will have a disabled toilet?

Interesting, I thought that they now needed facilities in all classes of accommodation under the new regs from January

It might have been nice to at least see mark 4 sets covering all of the Holyhead - Cardiff services: If they're bi-hourly, then I think that would require five sets in service (Plus a maintenance spare or two).

Speculatively, perhaps the three sets/twelve vehicles decision was based at least partly on leasing the same number of vehicles as the mark 3 rakes at present.

It would've been/would be, but yes - 12 vehicles does seem like a like-for-like replacement but now with each rake having first class.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Perhaps the potential extra vehicles are not for more sets but rather to lengthen them?

That would be my first assumption from such an announcement.

I've not read the article in full yet but having read the comments here there is another possible interpretation; namely that they have decided not to refurbish the interiors to begin with in order to get the sets into service sooner and have not yet decided what to do in the longer-term. They would have the options of adding an extra standard class coach or to refurb the 4-coach sets to be 3x TSO and 1x RFM/RFB.

Interesting, I thought that they now needed facilities in all classes of accommodation under the new regs from January

I seem to recall reading in one of the topics on the TPE Nova fleets that TPE were getting round that by allowing disabled passengers with standard class tickets to use the wheelchair spaces (and toilet) in first class but I could be wrong.

 

[hexagon789]

I've not read the article in full yet but having read the comments here there is another possible interpretation; namely that they have decided not to refurbish the interiors to begin with in order to get the sets into service sooner and have not yet decided what to do in the longer-term. They would have the options of adding an extra standard class coach or to refurb the 4-coach sets to be 3x TSO and 1x RFM/RFB.

Granted, certainly having them in service full stop is far better than a delay.

Though having a full first and an extra standard would not be a bad decision long-term either.

I seem to recall reading in one of the topics on the TPE Nova fleets that TPE were getting round that by allowing disabled passengers with standard class tickets to use the wheelchair spaces (and toilet) in first class but I could be wrong.

Sounds perfectly reasonable and indeed logical as well.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is currently a move from Doncaster Works to Eastleigh Works conveying some more Mk4s... 66009 in charge with what looks to be half of BN24. (DVT 82229 on the rear) https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K13963/2019/10/01/advanced

That’s showing as destination Eastleigh TRSMD, rather than the works which would appear in RTT as “Eastleigh Arlington”. It’s possible the TRSMD is only being used for storage.

 

[55002]

That’s showing as destination Eastleigh TRSMD, rather than the works which would appear in RTT as “Eastleigh Arlington”. It’s possible the TRSMD is only being used for storage.

As mentioned in the other thread it’s failed on the North London Line near Kensal Rise causing rush hour chaos

 

[hexagon789]

As mentioned in the other thread it’s failed on the North London Line near Kensal Rise causing rush hour chaos

Of all the places...

 

[krus_aragon]

Does this mean that standard class passengers will be able to have proper meals?

Historically, I've found the staff to be very keen to offer their catering services to standard class customers. Back in the 57+MkII days, I was travelling in the brake carriage as I had a bicycle with me: as far as can be from the kitchen. When I asked for an omelette I offered to wait at the buffet for it, but the staff insisted on bringing it all the way down to my table for me.

 

[krus_aragon]

Interesting, I thought that they now needed facilities in all classes of accommodation under the new regs from January

To a certain extent. I seem to recall that the only wheelchair-accessible area in GWR's 5-car 800s are in the first class area (i.e. a free upgrade for wheelchair passengers).

 

[hexagon789]

To a certain extent. I seem to recall that the only wheelchair-accessible area in GWR's 5-car 800s are in the first class area (i.e. a free upgrade for wheelchair passengers).

So essentially so long as standard class tickets holders needing a wheelchair space can have one that's what is required, it doesn't matter if the only space is in first class so long as no additional fee is charged.

 

[317362]

Just through Hungerford, double headed 66 (I think), DVT not on rear now

That’s showing as destination Eastleigh TRSMD, rather than the works which would appear in RTT as “Eastleigh Arlington”. It’s possible the TRSMD is only being used for storage.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Historically, I've found the staff to be very keen to offer their catering services to standard class customers. Back in the 57+MkII days, I was travelling in the brake carriage as I had a bicycle with me: as far as can be from the kitchen. When I asked for an omelette I offered to wait at the buffet for it, but the staff insisted on bringing it all the way down to my table for me.

Agreed, depending on how busy they are in Premier I have usually been served a hot meal (generally a curry or chilli, but there are a few other options) at my seat when travelling in standard. The catering staff are without exception superb. The only way the catering in standard has declined over the years is that the food is now served in disposable containers rather than on plates.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I seem to recall reading in one of the topics on the TPE Nova fleets that TPE were getting round that by allowing disabled passengers with standard class tickets to use the wheelchair spaces (and toilet) in first class but I could be wrong.

Yes, exactly this. TPE 802s and mk5s have 2 wheelchair spaces, both in 1st class and the wheelchair user +1 are automatically upgraded without any additional charge on the std class fare. Think the train crew will prefer this, I certainly do as it makes it easier to be there to provide assistance boarding and alighting

 

[Envoy]

Agreed, depending on how busy they are in Premier I have usually been served a hot meal (generally a curry or chilli, but there are a few other options) at my seat when travelling in standard. The catering staff are without exception superb. The only way the catering in standard has declined over the years is that the food is now served in disposable containers rather than on plates.

You would think that with all the anti plastic hype at the moment, that they would use china plates!

 

[DarloRich]

Is there a target mk iv service introduction date?

Agreed, depending on how busy they are in Premier I have usually been served a hot meal (generally a curry or chilli, but there are a few other options) at my seat when travelling in standard. The catering staff are without exception superb. The only way the catering in standard has declined over the years is that the food is now served in disposable containers rather than on plates.

You would think that with all the anti plastic hype at the moment, that they would use china plates!

On my recent journeys on the WAG the first class food was served on proper plates. Very nice it was to

 

[ainsworth74]

On my recent journeys on the WAG the first class food was served on proper plates. Very nice it was to

I believe the reference to disposable crockery related to standard class passengers.

 

[DarloRich]

I believe the reference to disposable crockery related to standard class passengers.

Crockery would be wasted on the philistines in cattle class

 

[Envoy]

Crockery would be wasted on the philistines in cattle class

I am sure that anybody travelling second class on Transport for Wales would be most impressed if meals were served on proper china. We judge a country by a number of factors - one of them being the standard of the trains and that of the general populace. So, feet up on seats and gobbing in the street as well as drunkeness would all be big minus points.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sure that anybody travelling second class on Transport for Wales would be most impressed if meals were served on proper china. We judge a country by a number of factors - one of them being the standard of the trains and that of the general populace. So, feet up on seats and gobbing in the street as well as drunkeness would all be big minus points.

it also appears humour is wasted on the philistines in cattle class...................

 

[krus_aragon]

it also appears humour is wasted on the philistines in cattle class...................

Phylis? 'Oos Phylis, then?

 

[krus_aragon]

A public statement about the additional capacity from December includes this snippet:

Improvements for rail passengers in December 2019 will include:
...
• Long distance passengers on some services between North Wales and Manchester will be traveling on more modern ‘Mark 4 intercity’ carriages.

So it seems they will be introduced on the Manchester runs first.

At a guess, this avoids the need to get the first class and kitchen areas suitably reconfigured before deployment.

 

[hexagon789]

A public statement about the additional capacity from December includes this snippet:

So it seems they will be introduced on the Manchester runs first.

At a guess, this avoids the need to get the first class and kitchen areas suitably reconfigured before deployment.

Does that mean the Mk3s will be around a bit longer or will the Mk3 workings be 175s for a period then.

 

[krus_aragon]

Does that mean the Mk3s will be around a bit longer or will the Mk3 workings be 175s for a period then.

Maybe.

The announcement says there will be mark 4s on some North Wales - Manchester trains, and also on an "additional" Holyhead-Cardiff loco-hauled service. That, plus the current Holyhead-Cardiff service, could be run by the expected three rakes of Mark 4 stock. Or they may keep one or two of the existing Mark 3 rakes in service, to allow an internal cascade to get rid of more (but not all) the Pacers in January.

A dig through RealTime Trains looking for January services which are timed for diesel locomotives may shed some more light on the matter.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m assuming the standard class interiors won’t be changed? The VTEC Red seats and panels are very similar to TFWs colour scheme, and they were only refurbished in 2016-2017.

 

[hexagon789]

Maybe.

The announcement says there will be mark 4s on some North Wales - Manchester trains, and also on an "additional" Holyhead-Cardiff loco-hauled service. That, plus the current Holyhead-Cardiff service, could be run by the expected three rakes of Mark 4 stock. Or they may keep one or two of the existing Mark 3 rakes in service, to allow an internal cascade to get rid of more (but not all) the Pacers in January.

A dig through RealTime Trains looking for January services which are timed for diesel locomotives may shed some more light on the matter.

Didn't realise there would be enough Mk4s for that, but of course that's instead of the new 3 a day Holyhead-Cardiff.

Thanks for the suggestion about RTT, a good idea, I'll have a look and see if there's anything there

 

[PHILIPE]

Didn't realise there would be enough Mk4s for that, but of course that's instead of the new 3 a day Holyhead-Cardiff.

Thanks for the suggestion about RTT, a good idea, I'll have a look and see if there's anything there

If it has only just been decided, will be a bit early for RTT

 

[hexagon789]

If it has only just been decided, will be a bit early for RTT

I realise that, I was more thinking of looking in a few months

 

[krus_aragon]

At the moment, looking at RTT for the 8th of January the current Manchester-North Wales loco-hauled diagram is still listed diesel loco, and there are three Holyhead-Cardiff loco-hauled services (0534, 1134, 1651) and their reverse workings. That would be three diagrams' worth of services.

On that basis, I'd guess that both Mark 3 rakes are to be withdrawn in January and replaced with Mark 4 rakes, with the third rake joining in on the Cardiff-Holyhead services. In that case, no 175s would be subbed in for the current Manchester service (except for failures). That would fit entirely with the contents of the press release.

 

[hexagon789]

At the moment, looking at RTT for the 8th of January the current Manchester-North Wales loco-hauled diagram is still listed diesel loco, and there are three Holyhead-Cardiff loco-hauled services (0534, 1134, 1651) and their reverse workings. That would be three diagrams' worth of services.

On that basis, I'd guess that both Mark 3 rakes are to be withdrawn in January and replaced with Mark 4 rakes, with the third rake joining in on the Cardiff-Holyhead services. In that case, no 175s would be subbed in for the current Manchester service (except for failures). That would fit entirely with the contents of the press release.

Thanks for the update, presumably replaced by the PRM-TSI deadline as in by the 1st January.