Ex locos as carriage heaters

[L+Y]

Thought this would be an interesting conversation for discussion...

Two questions from me to kick off. First, how late into 1968 were the last ex-LNER B1 carriage heating locos in use?

Second, how extensive was the conversion of class 15 locos into carriage heaters? Could the locos move on their own?

 

[Gloster]

30 (61050) and 32 (61315) were both withdrawn in April 1968. 30 was last used in December 1967 and 32 on 8 January 1968. They worked at Heeley and Nunnery sidings, got water at Rotherham Masborough and coal at Normanton MPD.

Source: British Rail Departmental Locomotives 1948-1968 (Paul and Shirley Smith, Ian Allan, 2014).

EDIT: It appears that the locos were originally allocated to Canklow, but when it closed in September 1966 they went to Barrow Hill.

 

[Magdalia]

The use of stationary diesel locos for ETH supply is well documented by the RCTS here:

Ex Main Line Locomotives used as ETS mobile generation units – Railway Correspondence & Travel Society

features.rcts.org.uk

But what used to be the best source on the interweb of the history of the B1 carriage heaters is no longer available. In East Anglia they were used for 3 winters: 1963/64, 1964/65 and 1965/66. The need for pre-heating had been highlighted in the 1962/63 winter. After that they were replaced by specially converted heating vans. In some cases this may have happened part way through the 1965/66 winter, and I'd be interested in any accurate dates for that.

My impression is that the 4 class 15 conversions were originally for staff training on new air-conditioned rolling stock. Their use for pre-heating in carriage sidings came later, in carriage sidings that did not have ETH shore supply.

Basically there's three ways of providing pre-heat, steam or ETH: shore supply, specially converted heating vans, or converted locomotives, in that order of preference.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Some of the class 15 conversions were used for carriage heating (ETH) as well as staff training from the start - they didn’t all wait for the arrival of the Mk11D stock. They had to be hauled between sites, the traction equipment having been removed. London, Newcastle and Edinburgh were the initial locations. On the GN they were to be found at either (or both of) Holloway or Hornsey CS together with one at Bounds Green for ETH testing for sets on maintenance. When they were on the GN they were maintained by Finsbury Park.

The B1 locomotives were replaced, where necessary, by a combination of vans and static fixed boilers. At some sites they were used for supplying steam for non-carriage heating purposes, for example the one at Peterborough supplied steam to New England shed, displacing a K3 locomotive.

 

[Magdalia]

Thanks.

one at Bounds Green for ETH testing for sets on maintenance.

Did Bounds Green not have shore supply for that?

At some sites they were used for supplying steam for non-carriage heating purposes, for example the one at Peterborough supplied steam to New England shed, displacing a K3 locomotive.

Is a steam supply needed at a loco depot (New England for example) to test locos after repairs? And is it not possible just to use another loco for that?

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, Bounds Green didn’t get proper 850v shore supply until later - when it was rebuilt, iirc. Putting in 850v switchgear is very expensive, before you get to the cost of having to run the cables.

The B1 at Peterborough supplied the shed for any facilities there that needed the input of steam/hot water - it wasn’t used directly to test locos.

 

[Magdalia]

No, Bounds Green didn’t get proper 850v shore supply until later - when it was rebuilt, iirc. Putting in 850v switchgear is very expensive, before you get to the cost of having to run the cables.

Thanks again. So did anywhere on the ECML get shore supply when the Mark IID coaches were introduced, or did it only come later, with HSTs?

I remember seeing the carriage heating locos at Holloway or Hornsey carriage sidings, and had assumed that they did not get shore supply there because of impending closure.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

There were of course the ETHELs (former class 25s for the benefit of some younger readers), traction motors isolated. In addition to providing ETH whilst on the move they were also used to pre-heat the stock.

 

[Helvellyn]

There were of course the ETHELs (former class 25s for the benefit of some younger readers), traction motors isolated. In addition to providing ETH whilst on the move they were also used to pre-heat the stock.

Initially used on the West Highland Line when the Mark 3A Sleepers were introduced but before the Class 37/4s were available. Once displaced they were used by the InterCity Charter Unit, primarily on steam hauled services using the InterCity VIP fleet (including the Marylebone-Stratford trips). I think they ended their lives based at Carlisle Upperby.

There was brief talk of replacing them with ex-Class 205/207 DMBSOs, which even had the acronym THERMUS bandied about - Train Heating Ex Redundant Multiple Unit Stock (whereas ETHEL stood for Electric Train Heat Ex Locomotive).

 

[Magdalia]

There was brief talk of replacing them with ex-Class 205/207 DMBSOs, which even had the acronym THERMUS bandied about - Train Heating Ex Redundant Multiple Unit Stock (whereas ETHEL stood for Electric Train Heat Ex Locomotive).

Would THERMUS not have been for flask trains?

I'll get my coat!

 

[xotGD]

I've posted these images on the forum previously, but this thread looks like a good excuse to do so again...





Both taken at Marylebone depot back in the 80s

 

[Clarence Yard]

Thanks again. So did anywhere on the ECML get shore supply when the Mark IID coaches were introduced, or did it only come later, with HSTs?

I remember seeing the carriage heating locos at Holloway or Hornsey carriage sidings, and had assumed that they did not get shore supply there because of impending closure.

Yes, 850v shore supply came in about the same time as the IID stock or shortly afterwards and when the HST fleet was due, 415v shore supply was provided. It required different switchgear, cables and heads.

In the KX division 850v and 415v shore supply would be found at Kings Cross station, Hornsey CS and Bounds Green. At KX the ETH (850v) and ETS (415v) sub station was under platform 8 in the part of the old tunnel that led from the cross platform staff subway to the parcels office. If you look at old pictures of KX station in the late 1970’s and 1980’s that show the buffer stops, you can see the individual platform control units for each supply situated behind the buffer stops.

Hornsey CS had a lot of money was spent on it in the mid 1970’s - there were individual battery charging facilities as well as the ETH/ETS. The static steam heating boiler (a 1963 built Thompson Multipac design - BR no SB 4598) was retained and was in use until the mid 1980’s. Holloway was slated for closure and didn’t get any of this although it had too had a static boiler installation (an industrial Spanner - BR no SB 4549, iirc), put in at the same time as the Hornsey CS one.

You can jump start a (flat battery affected) 11D m/a from the static ETH, something I have done on more than one occasion at KX but it isn’t a job for the faint hearted.

 

[Taunton]

A further type was the relevant parts of an old steam loco, grounded, and used instead of a boilerhouse. Sometimes fitted with a substantial extension to the chimney. There was one outside Manchester Victoria, at Red Bank sidings, well into the mid-1960s at least, and possibly after the end of steam, visible from the Bury electric line, which was an old L&Y loco, still being used long after the class was withdrawn from service. Others elsewhere. Did any preservation societies get locos which had been carriage heaters?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Of the LMR SB’s, only 47564 - all the ex L & Y locos went for scrap.

Grounded boilers were quite common but the ex ABrail site got really confused with the numbers of the GWR ones - they were renumbered into a separate series when they went into SB duty but ABrail thought that this number was the original loco number!

 

[Magdalia]

Grounded boilers were quite common but the ex ABrail site got really confused with the numbers of the GWR ones - they were renumbered into a separate series when they went into SB duty but ABrail thought that this number was the original loco number!

I think that ABRail was the original source for a lot of the information I had on the B1s.

Does the information still exist but in a different place?

 

[Cowley]

There was brief talk of replacing them with ex-Class 205/207 DMBSOs, which even had the acronym THERMUS bandied about - Train Heating Ex Redundant Multiple Unit Stock (whereas ETHEL stood for Electric Train Heat Ex Locomotive).

That’s an interesting idea, I’d not heard of that before.
Would they have been allowed to run at the rear of a train I wonder?

 

[Strathclyder]

One Standard Class 4 Tank (80002) was used as a carriage heater at Glasgow's Eastfield depot after it's withdrawal in March 1967 until at least early 1969, when it was bought by the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway Preservation Society, being moved to their premises at Haworth that May. Apart from being the only surviving member of the class that wasn't built in Brighton (instead built at Derby), it was the only member of the class to be bought directly from BR for preservation, all the others being bought from Woodham Scrapyard.



(attached images from eastbank.org.uk, dating from April 1969. Looks to have fallen out of use as a carriage heater by this time)

 

[Cowley]

One Standard Class 4 Tank (80002) was used as a carriage heater at Glasgow's Eastfield depot after it's withdrawal in March 1967 until at least early 1969, being bought by the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway Preservation Society, being moved to their premises at Haworth in May that year. Apart from being the only surviving member of the class that wasn't built in Brighton (instead built at Derby), it was the only member of the class to be bought directly from BR for preservation, all the others being bought from Woodham Scrapyard.

View attachment 111302 View attachment 111303

(attached images from eastbank.org.uk, dating from April 1969. Looks to have fallen out of use as a carriage heater by this time)

Thanks for posting that @Strathclyder.
I remember that coming up in a different thread once before and loving the general air of dereliction around the place. A pretty late survivor eh?

Edit - It was from this thread:

last actual Steam used by BR (standard gauge)

Much has been written about the end of steam on BR, but this got me thinking, many locomotives have been used after withdrawn for a number of uses be they static or mobile. What was the actual last steam loco (standard gauge) used by BR, either shunting or heating or other uses

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Cheshire Scot]

One Standard Class 4 Tank (80002) was used as a carriage heater at Glasgow's Eastfield depot after it's withdrawal in March 1967 until at least early 1969

It seems strange Eastfield depot would have any need for carriage heating as it was a diesel depot for locomotives and DMUs with the nearby Cowlairs Carriage Sidings dealing with coaching stock.

 

[Helvellyn]

That’s an interesting idea, I’d not heard of that before.
Would they have been allowed to run at the rear of a train I wonder?

I think that was potentially possible. Even though in later years two of the ETHELs gained InterCity colours to match the IC VIP stock the noise of the loco providing train electeical power wasn't appreciated by enthusiats recording steam locos. A THERMUS vehicle could have been either end, effectively just being a generator coach. Behind a steam loco though with that distinctive Thumper sound I'd imagine it would be no better than an ETHEL.

 

[Cowley]

I think that was potentially possible. Even though in later years two of the ETHELs gained InterCity colours to match the IC VIP stock the noise of the loco providing train electeical power wasn't appreciated by enthusiats recording steam locos. A THERMUS vehicle could have been either end, effectively just being a generator coach. Behind a steam loco though with that distinctive Thumper sound I'd imagine it would be no better than an ETHEL.

Definitely. I remember there being a lot of resentment in Steam Railway magazine back then about the ETHELs. I don’t remember hearing one running but I think they ran on higher revs than a normal class 25 tick over.
Plus they looked ridiculous of course.

 

[Strathclyder]

Thanks for posting that @Strathclyder.
I remember that coming up in a different thread once before and loving the general air of dereliction around the place. A pretty late survivor eh?

Edit - It was from this thread:

last actual Steam used by BR (standard gauge)

Much has been written about the end of steam on BR, but this got me thinking, many locomotives have been used after withdrawn for a number of uses be they static or mobile. What was the actual last steam loco (standard gauge) used by BR, either shunting or heating or other uses

www.railforums.co.uk

Aye, a very late survivor indeed. Can't think of any other loco lasting that long more or less intact at a depot beyond the end of BR steam in Scotland (can never remember when that was, can anyone refresh my memory?).

It seems strange Eastfield depot would have any need for carriage heating as it was a diesel depot for locomotives and DMUs with the nearby Cowlairs Carriage Sidings dealing with coaching stock.

Yeah, does seem a bit odd. A complete guess, but maybe it was used as a backup in the event of the main carriage heating equipment suffering a fault/outage.

 

[Taunton]

It seems strange Eastfield depot would have any need for carriage heating as it was a diesel depot for locomotives and DMUs with the nearby Cowlairs Carriage Sidings dealing with coaching stock.

It seems to have no motion, so would need a diesel shunter to move it around. It would presumably need occasional coal and water supplies, possibly only available at the shed, and a fireman, who would also come from the shed. I guess Eastfield still had a qualified boilersmith on the shed staff as well for any repairs.

How were they actually used? Were they connected up to the central supply point, or were they moved around between the rakes of coaching stock, in which case they would need a diesel shunter for that as well.

 

[Harvester]

30 (61050) and 32 (61315) were both withdrawn in April 1968. 30 was last used in December 1967 and 32 on 8 January 1968.

K1 62005 was used as an emergency boiler for two months, at the ICI Port Clarence Works, between December 1967 and February 1968. Coal and pure water (to avoid boiler washouts) were supplied by road, and West Hartlepool provided a rota of firemen to keep it constantly working. The K1 was officially withdrawn from BR stock on 30/12/67 while at Port Clarence.