Ex Physics Teacher claims "children 'being shaken out of bed' by train noise"

Ianno87

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
7,433
That seems pretty clear. I worked in (freight) train planning. The idea that there was political pressure applied to the routes used is fanciful to say the least. I doubt that has changed.
And Southampton-Oxford-Midlands is less mileage than Southampton-Wembley-Midlands.

Less mileage = Less fuel = Less emissions overall.

Economic amd environmental common sense, not conspiracy.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
3,765
[QUOTE="j
Buy a house near an airport - expect aeroplanes, buy a house near a railway - expect trains. We could ban freight trains entirely so the darlings will sleep but then they would complain when the motorways are clogged with stone lorries and container trucks![/QUOTE]
No they won't. You forget the one vital factor. The motorway passes SOMEONE ELSE's house!
 

Doctor Fegg

Member
Joined
9 Nov 2010
Messages
799
Only the electrification between Didcot and Oxford has been 'postponed' not 'cancelled'.
Sure, but to be fair that is a significant element of the complaints from some North Oxford residents: electric trains in the sidings north of Oxford station would make a lot less noise than HSTs and Turbos rumbling away.

If I lived in North Oxford it wouldn't be the thing I complained about - I'd be more irate at the constant hum of car traffic, as I was when I lived a short distance from the WCML in North London. But I wouldn't dismiss their complaints out of hand.
 

mallard

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2009
Messages
1,304
That seems pretty clear. I worked in (freight) train planning. The idea that there was political pressure applied to the routes used is fanciful to say the least. I doubt that has changed.
As I made completely clear in my previous post; I do not believe political pressure is applied directly to train planning. That is, as you say, "fanciful". Political pressure is applied to which routes are considered "suitible" for heavy freight and therefore which lines are maintained to a suitable standard and open for traffic during the night.

Southampton-Oxford-Midlands is less mileage than Southampton-Wembley-Midlands.
As far as I can tell, most Southampton freights operate to the North West (Manchester/Liverpool area), very few terminate in the West Midlands. A fair few also operate to Leeds. The difference in milage is much less significant for those routes.

Less mileage = Less fuel = Less emissions overall.
Only if diesel traction is used throughout... Long runs up the WCML are much better suited to electric traction.
 
Joined
7 Dec 2012
Messages
109
I can suggest an easy solution to this problem. Insert buffer stops at the Oxford end of the following stations, Appleford (able to turn back via the crossover into the siding), Tackley (Turn back using Tackley ground frame), Finstock (Platform on single line = very easy) and Bicester Village. Then lift all rails and tarmac over the rail formation and voila no more nasty noisy trains to disturb the residents of Oxford and North Oxford. Those people can then sleep nice and quietly with no disturbance.

Paul
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,073
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
As I made completely clear in my previous post; I do not believe political pressure is applied directly to train planning. That is, as you say, "fanciful". Political pressure is applied to which routes are considered "suitible" for heavy freight and therefore which lines are maintained to a suitable standard and open for traffic during the night.
You clearly believe this strongly but this is also, at best, fanciful. Can you provide any evidence of this political pressure?
 

shredder1

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2016
Messages
1,986
Location
North Manchester
I was born in the 1950`s and my bedroom overlooked the Mills Hill loop on the Calder Valley line, which was very busy in those days. I`d often have a WD Austerity parked outside my bedroom window and trains would rumble on though the night. I`d fall asleep to the sounds of shunting freight trains. When I got married I moved out of the area into a small village which had never had a railway, it was very quiet and I had trouble sleeping for years, the one thing that sent me to sleep was those Argos steam train recordings. The thought of being shaken out of bed by a train these days would be extremely exciting and desirable.
 

mallard

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2009
Messages
1,304
You clearly believe this strongly but this is also, at best, fanciful. Can you provide any evidence of this political pressure?
Sure, from a parliamentary written response in July 2017:
The Department frequently holds discussions with Network Rail about the environmental impact of the railway, including measures to mitigate noise and vibration.
Can't get much clearer than that...

Then there's this in a Network Rail planning document for the Ipswich Chord (in a paragraph listing the objectives of the national "Strategic Freight Network" in general, not just the Ipswich scheme):

Subject to acceptable business cases, the core trunk route network would be expected ultimately to:
[...]
minimise freight movements via London where an alternative route is available (unless the ultimate origin or destination of the freight is in London)
Which is exactly what you called a "conspiracy theory"...
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
24,073
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Sure, from a parliamentary written response in July 2017:


Can't get much clearer than that...
A statement that the government discusses, amoungst, other things noise, vibration and pollution with Network Rail. Really. Wow. A question, I should point out, raised by the MP for that famous London Borough: Stirling.

Then there's this in a Network Rail planning document for the Ipswich Chord (in a paragraph listing the objectives of the national "Strategic Freight Network" in general, not just the Ipswich scheme):Which is exactly what you called a "conspiracy theory"...
You have taken one sentence in 33 page report and presented completely out of context. Without that context your statements seem to support your views. However, reading the full document ( even just searching for the word: London) the context of that line becomes clear. The reason why freight is diverted away from London is not because of some secretive political pressure but because of conflicts with the congested passenger network.

Just stop now eh?
 

mallard

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2009
Messages
1,304
The reason why freight is diverted away from London is not because of some secretive political pressure but because of conflicts with the congested passenger network.
Then why is this a seperate "objective"?

have limited conflicts between passenger and freight traffic (e.g. by using avoiding lines or grade separation)
Surely if the only reason to avoid London were to avoid the congested passenger network, they wouldn't need two objectives that amount to the same thing...? Why single out London for special consideration? Why are you so insistent that the UK government is always 100% impartial in relation to distribution of resources between London and the rest of the country?
 

Ianno87

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
7,433
Then why is this a seperate "objective"?



Surely if the only reason to avoid London were to avoid the congested passenger network, they wouldn't need two objectives that amount to the same thing...? Why single out London for special consideration? Why are you so insistent that the UK government is always 100% impartial in relation to distribution of resources between London and the rest of the country?
Because demand for passenger services in/through London (where capacity is still finite) is an order of magnitude higher than the rest of the country. It thus makes no sense to send freight trains through London that have no need to be there and thus use up this valuable capacity.
 

mallard

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2009
Messages
1,304
Because demand for passenger services in/through London (where capacity is still finite) is an order of magnitude higher than the rest of the country.
But thanks to the generous infrastructure investment in London, the demand-in-excess-of-capacity (PIXC) is only slightly higher than Manchester (and is set to reduce now that LSE passenger numbers have stopped growing while infrastructure investment is in full swing). Also, peak-time passenger loadings aren't all that relevant when considering overnight freight routes...
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
2,465
There is a lot of nonsense being written about freight through London.

I live right next to the south London Line, which is the main freight route from the Channel Tunnel, Kent and points on the south side of the Thames estuary for trains that need to get north or west of London from those places. Despite various schemes over the years to have a 'bypass' line (eg via Redhill and Guildford) for such traffic none has come to fruition and therefore all of that freight traffic (now with the exception of a small proportion that goes via HS1) is routed through relatively central south London through densely built up residential areas. If there's a conspiracy to send freight elsewhere it's not been very successful. This traffic mainly heads up the WLL after reaching the Clapham area.

Heavy aggregates trains pass regularly. Freight is mainly slotted in between rush hours when the line is most intensively used. Chunnel traffic (although there's not a lot of it at present) tends to be taken through the tunnel overnight, so trains from there often pass in the wee small hours. I'm not aware of any particular directive that freight should not run at night so as not to disturb people. If and when Chunnel traffic picks up again, I expect a lot of it will fill the currently unused paths during the night because there's not loads of spare capacity during the day.

Regarding being shaken out of bed - the house does shake, sometimes with things visibly moving. It depends on things like how much water is in the ground and I assume the weight of trains and whether the speed they happen to be going at hits some kind of resonant frequency. What's noticeable though, and commented upon by most guests, is that there's more disturbance from road traffic on a not especially major street. And the house also shakes when an HGV goes over the speed bump just up the road.

Freight going by road disturbs (and indeed kills) far more people than that going by rail.

And if like me you decide to live next to a railway you can't expect it never to make any noise or disturbance.

The most fun is when the tamping machine or rail grinder comes past repeatedly at 3am!
 

Ianno87

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
7,433
But thanks to the generous infrastructure investment in London, the demand-in-excess-of-capacity (PIXC) is only slightly higher than Manchester (and is set to reduce now that LSE passenger numbers have stopped growing while infrastructure investment is in full swing). Also, peak-time passenger loadings aren't all that relevant when considering overnight freight routes...
It is most definitely relevant. The only time to maintain the London network is largely at night, so freight has to be sent elsewhere in the meantime.

There is a lot of nonsense being written about freight through London.

I live right next to the south London Line, which is the main freight route from the Channel Tunnel, Kent and points on the south side of the Thames estuary for trains that need to get north or west of London from those places. Despite various schemes over the years to have a 'bypass' line (eg via Redhill and Guildford) for such traffic none has come to fruition and therefore all of that freight traffic (now with the exception of a small proportion that goes via HS1) is routed through relatively central south London through densely built up residential areas. If there's a conspiracy to send freight elsewhere it's not been very successful. This traffic mainly heads up the WLL after reaching the Clapham area.

Heavy aggregates trains pass regularly. Freight is mainly slotted in between rush hours when the line is most intensively used. Chunnel traffic (although there's not a lot of it at present) tends to be taken through the tunnel overnight, so trains from there often pass in the wee small hours. I'm not aware of any particular directive that freight should not run at night so as not to disturb people. If and when Chunnel traffic picks up again, I expect a lot of it will fill the currently unused paths during the night because there's not loads of spare capacity during the day.

Regarding being shaken out of bed - the house does shake, sometimes with things visibly moving. It depends on things like how much water is in the ground and I assume the weight of trains and whether the speed they happen to be going at hits some kind of resonant frequency. What's noticeable though, and commented upon by most guests, is that there's more disturbance from road traffic on a not especially major street. And the house also shakes when an HGV goes over the speed bump just up the road.

Freight going by road disturbs (and indeed kills) far more people than that going by rail.

And if like me you decide to live next to a railway you can't expect it never to make any noise or disturbance.

The most fun is when the tamping machine or rail grinder comes past repeatedly at 3am!

Obviously *some* traffic has to go via London. Aggregates traffic for construction is by definition bound for London anyway, and Channel Tunnel traffic essentially has no way of avoiding inner London at all (lacking a suitable chord at Redhill). These flows (limited in the grand scheme of things) are manageable via London. Intermodals from Southampton (more significant in number, and growing) are of sufficient volume not to be manageable via London.
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,430
I was born in the 1950`s and my bedroom overlooked the Mills Hill loop on the Calder Valley line, which was very busy in those days. I`d often have a WD Austerity parked outside my bedroom window and trains would rumble on though the night. I`d fall asleep to the sounds of shunting freight trains. When I got married I moved out of the area into a small village which had never had a railway, it was very quiet and I had trouble sleeping for years, the one thing that sent me to sleep was those Argos steam train recordings. The thought of being shaken out of bed by a train these days would be extremely exciting and desirable.
Lovely post.

The sound of shunting and wagons crashing into each other as trains are marshalled is one I shall never forget.
 

Joseph_Locke

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2012
Messages
1,862
Location
Within earshot of trains passing the one and half
Agreed. However, as someone who used to work in office right next to a railway line close to a station, it's very different having a passenger train going through at low speed on approach/leaving a station it stops at and a freight train passing through carrying many wagons of limestone. If the freight is introduced after you buy the house and includes a middle of the night working then I think you have grounds to complain.
No, you don't, not unless you can prove beyond reasonable challenge that your health or the fabric of property or the undertaking of your lawful business has been materially affected. The lawful business of Network Rail is operating a Railway.
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,245
Perhaps NR should use this positively and sell recordings of passing freight trains to parents desperately trying to get their children out of bed!
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,045
I’ve just googled Layla Moran. What an absolute shock to find out that she’s an MP for the Liberals... I’d never have guessed.
Really? Well her predecessor as MP for Oxford West and Abingdon wasn't a Liberal Democrat, and also had plenty to say on the subject of noise and trains through Wolvercote. Part of an MP's job (and councillors) is speak up about concerns that constituents' raise with them.

Would you have guessed Nicola Blackwood was a Conservative - or Labour, Green, UKIP or anything else - on the basis of anything said below?

http://www.nicolablackwood.com/keeping-up-the-pressure-on-rail-noise/

http://www.nicolablackwood.com/more-trains-less-noise/

http://www.nicolablackwood.com/nicola-pushes-for-commitment-on-silent-rail/

http://www.nicolablackwood.com/nicola-pushes-for-commitment-on-silent-rail/

http://www.nicolablackwood.com/public-meeting-with-rail-minister-and-network-rail/

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/14...ork_Rail_silent_track_claims_in_North_Oxford/
 

shredder1

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2016
Messages
1,986
Location
North Manchester
Lovely post.

The sound of shunting and wagons crashing into each other as trains are marshalled is one I shall never forget.
Thank you, yes great memories of unbraked freight, my playground was Newton Heath loco sheds, we`d run to the shops for drivers and firemen and in return they give us rides down to the turntable on footplates.
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,637
No, you don't, not unless you can prove beyond reasonable challenge that your health or the fabric of property or the undertaking of your lawful business has been materially affected. The lawful business of Network Rail is operating a Railway.
As I already clarified in another post I said you've got a right to complain, not you're automatically entitled to compensation. Saying people don't have the right to complain is effectively the same as saying people should do what dictators tell them to do.

As someone who lives under the flight path for the newish second runway at Manchester Airport I'm well aware of how difficult it can be for people to prove it's having a direct impact. For instance, those who purchased their house before plans for a second runway were approved didn't have a up-to-date value of their house prior to the second runway opening and as house prices have increased anyway the challenge wasn't to prove the opening of the second runway had caused your property to decrease in value but that the increase in value was lower than it would have been had the second runway not been built. Originally the airport drew a line on a map and said those the right side of the line would get compensation - the line meant one terrace house wasn't entitled to compensation but their next door neighbour was!

Likewise if you have a sleep problem which gets worse, how do you prove it wouldn't have got worse even without the overnight noise pollution?
 

The_Engineer

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2018
Messages
524
Is it a case of:

Step 1 - Family buys house next to railway line
Step 2 - Family complains about said railway line generating noise?
Sadly, all too common. Often they say that they didn't realise trains run all night, or they didn't see any when they looked around the house...... Goes under the same heading as person buys house in countryside, complains that countryside smells......
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,430
Thank you, yes great memories of unbraked freight, my playground was Newton Heath loco sheds, we`d run to the shops for drivers and firemen and in return they give us rides down to the turntable on footplates.
Can you imagine that now ? The drivers would lose their jobs.

Life was much more fun in t' olden days
 

shredder1

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2016
Messages
1,986
Location
North Manchester
Can you imagine that now ? The drivers would lose their jobs.

Life was much more fun in t' olden days

Yes indeed things have changed so much in the UK and not always for the better, mind you I went to a school full of asbestos, clung on to moving coal trains and smoked dope and dropped acid in the 60`s, and did a ton 20 on motorbikes without crash helmets, survived the lot, (just)
 

Top