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Ex Physics Teacher claims "children 'being shaken out of bed' by train noise"

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DarloRich

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Why do so many complaints about noise from railways seem to come from the Oxford area?

Upper middle class, southern, well educated, well connected, well upholstered, affluent, "wont someone think of the house prices" NIMBYS - that's why ;)
 
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swt_passenger

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Most other industries are subject to noise controls. No reason why railways should be any different and of course, sending more freight through Oxford is a direct result of the desire to keep noisy and polluting diesels out of London. Yet another way that "the provinces" are screwed over by the London-first British government.
...And yet a check of realtimetrains for a random 24 hours of freight moves through Oxford doesn’t actually show any origins or destinations that would ever have been logically routed via London...
 

furnessvale

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Agreed. However, as someone who used to work in office right next to a railway line close to a station, it's very different having a passenger train going through at low speed on approach/leaving a station it stops at and a freight train passing through carrying many wagons of limestone. If the freight is introduced after you buy the house and includes a middle of the night working then I think you have grounds to complain.
44 tonnes HGVs thunder down the A6 in Derbyshire 24 hours a day. When I first moved into my village I could walk home from the pub down the centre white line of that road, and those few HGVs that put in an appearance weighed 32 tons.

Where do I send my application for compensation and what response do you think I will get? I already know the answer as I have been officially informed there is NO compensation or assistance towards double glazing etc, for increase in traffic on existing roads.

Why are railways different?
 

mallard

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...And yet a check of realtimetrains for a random 24 hours of freight moves through Oxford doesn’t actually show any origins or destinations that would ever have been logically routed via London...

Really? A quick look at the same for me shows a great many Southampton - North West services which could very logically pass over the WLL. There are even a decent number of Southampton - Leeds services for which a via London route would be substantially shorter than sending them via the West Midlands.

It's highly likely that in BR days many of these services (or their equivelents) were routed via the WLL and WCML in order to use cheaper, cleaner and generally quieter electric traction.
 

swt_passenger

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Really? A quick look at the same for me shows a great many Southampton - North West services which could very logically pass over the WLL. There are even a decent number of Southampton - Leeds services for which a via London route would be substantially shorter than sending them via the West Midlands.

It's highly likely that in BR days many of these services (or their equivelents) were routed via the WLL and WCML in order to use cheaper, cleaner and generally quieter electric traction.
Only with a considerable time penalty, and with no capacity for it anyway. The usual freight route is via Reading and Oxford, just like the usual route for road traffic is the A34, not the M25. To the best of my knowledge BR never used 'cheaper, cleaner and generally quieter electric traction' from Southampton to any destination in the north.
 

mallard

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To the best of my knowledge BR never used 'cheaper, cleaner and generally quieter electric traction' from Southampton to any destination in the north.

No, they swapped the locos in the London area (usually at Willesden for WCML work). Until the 92s came along there were no real "heavy freight" locos that could run on 3rd rail. Remember that BR had something of a "no diesels under the wires" policy until around 1980; meaning that even services routed via Oxford and the West Midlands would usually have a loco swap before arriving in the North West.
 

Ianno87

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Only with a considerable time penalty, and with no capacity for it anyway. The usual freight route is via Reading and Oxford, just like the usual route for road traffic is the A34, not the M25. To the best of my knowledge BR never used 'cheaper, cleaner and generally quieter electric traction' from Southampton to any destination in the north.

And the amount of people you're bothering with noise and disturbance via London probably far, far exceeds that number via Oxford...
 

DarloRich

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What? You're aware of the West London Line, right?

Really? A quick look at the same for me shows a great many Southampton - North West services which could very logically pass over the WLL. There are even a decent number of Southampton - Leeds services for which a via London route would be substantially shorter than sending them via the West Midlands.

OK - then where are they going to go? Surely not up the already massively congested WCML?

It's highly likely that in BR days many of these services (or their equivelents) were routed via the WLL and WCML in order to use cheaper, cleaner and generally quieter electric traction.

more tinfoil. There isnt some conspiracy against Oxford and its wonderful residents you know.................
 

Crossover

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Does anyone know the sort of speeds involved here? I've not stayed that many places near a railway line, but have had a couple of nights at Premier Inn Cheltenham, which isn't so far from the station. The freights overnight didn't pass through with a great speed, but I heard a few of them clacking over what must have been a rail joint or small defect in the track, a couple of times, but it certainly didn't shake the building at all. In fact, I was more miffed the trees meant I couldn't really see much of what was passing :P
 

mallard

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Surely not up the already massively congested WCML?

The WCML is not "massively congested" in the middle of the night...

There isnt some conspiracy against Oxford and its wonderful residents you know.

I know. It's just long-standing government policy to underinvest in anything (especially infrastructure) outside of London.
 

Crossover

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And the amount of people you're bothering with noise and disturbance via London probably far, far exceeds that number via Oxford...

Absolutely - even if there are other routes, there may be people on these who don't want more freight rolling past their bedrooms!
 

DarloRich

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The WCML is not "massively congested" in the middle of the night...

but it is often closed overnight or run as a limited access railway to allow for maintenance that cant be done during the more congested daylight period

I know. It's just long-standing government policy to underinvest in anything (especially infrastructure) outside of London.

eh? how has that anything to do with sending trains via Oxford?
 

swt_passenger

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Some of the heavy aggregate trains are from Somerset to Banbury or Oxford aggregate yards. It would be pretty stupid not to send them via Oxford.

Most container trains from Southampton to the northwest or Leeds are W10 gauge and cannot use the SWML beyond Basingstoke towards London as they are too tall. So they end up at Reading, from where the normal route to the north is via Oxford.
 

pemma

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44 tonnes HGVs thunder down the A6 in Derbyshire 24 hours a day. When I first moved into my village I could walk home from the pub down the centre white line of that road, and those few HGVs that put in an appearance weighed 32 tons.

Where do I send my application for compensation and what response do you think I will get? I already know the answer as I have been officially informed there is NO compensation or assistance towards double glazing etc, for increase in traffic on existing roads.

Why are railways different?

I said you're entitled to complain, not you're automatically entitled to compensation, from what you've said it sounds like you have already complained and demanded compensation, only for your demands to be rejected. If you're talking about lorries serving a newly built depot/facility near you then the local council are able to impose planning restrictions including the times vehicles can and can't access the site as part of the application. Even Manchester Airport has some restrictions on when they can and can't use the second runway at night. However, when the freight trains are going from a facility 50 miles away to one 100 miles away there's not much you can do.
 

mallard

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eh? how has that anything to do with sending trains via Oxford?

Oxford isn't in London. Modernisation plans for the route through Oxford have been "indefinitely postponed" (i.e. cancelled). Freight traffic has increased over the last few decades, increasing daytime passenger traffic has forced more freight to run at night and there is a general politically-lead desire not to route it through London if there's an alternative. Thus, Oxford ends up with increasing numbers of noisy, dirty, diesel frieghts on outdated, unsuitable infrastructure while politicians sit around debating air quality in London.

Some of the heavy aggregate trains are from Somerset to Banbury or Oxford aggregate yards. It would be pretty stupid not to send them via Oxford.

Obviously. Isn't it great how whenever someone says something that amounts to "we should avoid doing x where possible" people always respond as though they've said "we must never do x at all costs"? Of course some freight has to go through Oxford. Does that mean virtually all freight between Southampton and points north of London has to go that way and that no attempt should be made to avoid sending noisy trains through restidential areas during the night? I would say not.

A sensible country/government would be investing in infrastructure so that there is enough capacity for both passenger and freight during the day and so that freight that does have to run at night could use quieter, more environmentally friendly traction... Anybody remember the "electric spine"...?
 

swt_passenger

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A sensible country/government would be investing in infrastructure so that there is enough capacity for both passenger and freight during the day and so that freight that does have to run at night could use quieter, more environmentally friendly traction... Anybody remember the "electric spine"...?

The electric spine that ran right through Oxford, and either towards Banbury or Bicester. Yes, I remember, and there have been numerous discussions about it anyway. All published plans seem to be about more freight capacity through Oxford, not diverting away from Oxford.
 

DarloRich

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Oxford isn't in London. Modernisation plans for the route through Oxford have been "indefinitely postponed" (i.e. cancelled). Freight traffic has increased over the last few decades, increasing daytime passenger traffic has forced more freight to run at night and there is a general politically-lead desire not to route it through London if there's an alternative. Thus, Oxford ends up with increasing numbers of noisy, dirty, diesel frieghts on outdated, unsuitable infrastructure while politicians sit around debating air quality in London.

I think you need to look beyond your fevered conspiracy theory.................
 

mallard

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The electric spine that ran right through Oxford, and either towards Banbury or Bicester. Yes, I remember, and there have been numerous discussions about it anyway. All published plans seem to be about more freight capacity through Oxford, not diverting away from Oxford.

Yes. The point being that had that plan gone ahead, the noise levels would have been greatly reduced, even if the same number or even more freights were routed that way.

I think you need to look beyond your fevered conspiracy theory.

For it to be a "conspiracy theory" there would have to be both a "conspiracy" and a "theory". Whether what I've said is a "conspiracy" is a matter of personal opinion (surely a "conspiracy" should have some actual goal, rather than just being a mostly-uninitentional result of disconnected government policies?), but I don't see anything that's a "theory"... Are you saying that freight or passenger traffic hasn't increased? That the route through Oxford has been modernised? That more freight isn't running at night? That more freight isn't being routed away from London for largely political reasons? Maybe you believe that Oxford is in London...?
 

DarloRich

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For it to be a "conspiracy theory" there would have to be both a "conspiracy" and a "theory". Whether what I've said is a "conspiracy" is a matter of personal opinion (surely a "conspiracy" should have some actual goal, rather than just being a mostly-uninitentional result of disconnected government policies?), but I don't see anything that's a "theory"... Are you saying that freight or passenger traffic hasn't increased? That the route through Oxford has been modernised? That more freight isn't running at night? That more freight isn't being routed away from London for largely political reasons? Maybe you believe that Oxford is in London...?

I am saying that your suggestion is silly. Can you point to any documents that show, for " largely political reasons" Oxford is being targeted with more freight trains? I simply ask because whenever i have, in my limited experience, seen anything to do with train planning ( most often heavy, diesel hauled trains) there doesn't seem to be a big box flash up on the screen saying: DO NOT ROUTE VIA LONDON AS IT WILL BE TOO NOISY/POLLUTING THEREFORE SEEK ALTERNATIVE ROUTE
 

mallard

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Can you point to any documents that show, for " largely political reasons" Oxford is being targeted with more freight trains?

I never said Oxford was being "targetted". It's just in the unfortunate position of being on the best non-London route for freight traffic from South Coast ports to points north of London. There is no legislation to restrict noise from railways, unlike virtually every other heavy industry.

I simply ask because whenever i have, in my limited experience, seen anything to do with train planning ( most often heavy, diesel hauled trains) there doesn't seem to be a big box flash up on the screen saying: DO NOT ROUTE VIA LONDON AS IT WILL BE TOO NOISY/POLLUTING THEREFORE SEEK ALTERNATIVE ROUTE


Of course not. You just find that the routes via London aren't "suggested" by the system (I have no idea what the NR train planning systems looks like), because the routes are closed overnight to reduce noise or have weight/speed limits designed to discourage freight routing via London, etc.
 

DarloRich

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Of course not. You just find that the routes via London aren't "suggested" by the system (I have no idea what the NR train planning systems looks like), because the routes are closed overnight to reduce noise or have weight/speed limits designed to discourage freight routing via London, etc.

I am not sure about that. Do you mean the national rail enquires routing system? There are, of course, lots of routes closed overnight or subject to weight/speed restrictions and lots of gauging issues etc. but I am not aware of any restrictions added to prevent routing via London beyond usual operational considerations and certainly not because of noise or pollution.
 
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coppercapped

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Oxford isn't in London. Modernisation plans for the route through Oxford have been "indefinitely postponed" (i.e. cancelled). Freight traffic has increased over the last few decades, increasing daytime passenger traffic has forced more freight to run at night and there is a general politically-lead desire not to route it through London if there's an alternative. Thus, Oxford ends up with increasing numbers of noisy, dirty, diesel frieghts on outdated, unsuitable infrastructure while politicians sit around debating air quality in London.

Absolute nonsense. All these members of the Orange Army that one sees about Oxford relaying track, adding new S&C work, changing the signalling and opening a new route to London are a figment of my imagination then?

Only the electrification between Didcot and Oxford has been 'postponed' not 'cancelled'. In any event the electrification would have had to have followed the re-signalling for all the usual immunisation reasons and that it's cheaper to electrify the final layout and not one which is subject to change. All the other work is going ahead as I write.

The issue seems to be that some residents living near the Oxford - Bicester - Bletchley line near Wolvercote Tunnel are concerned that freight trains for the construction of HS2 will be routed that way and that these may disturb them - not that the existing freights on the Oxford - Banbury line are the problem. In any event land to the west of the Oxford - Banbury line is uninhabited - being the semi-holy Port Meadow - and houses to the east have always been close to the railway. But for residents of north Oxford - protesting is a way of life...
 

a good off

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Please explain how / where the freight trains that pass through Oxford could be diverted through London.
Bearing in mind that there are no cross-city freight routes in London & very few peripheral options either

DC.

Have you ever been to Acton Wells Jn Delticdave? Huge amount of cross city freight by modern standards.
 

6Gman

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Of course not. You just find that the routes via London aren't "suggested" by the system (I have no idea what the NR train planning systems looks like), because the routes are closed overnight to reduce noise or have weight/speed limits designed to discourage freight routing via London, etc.

That seems pretty clear. I worked in (freight) train planning. The idea that there was political pressure applied to the routes used is fanciful to say the least. I doubt that has changed.
 

jdxn

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For freight trains South to North arriving at Reading, the Oxford route is the most logical. Forgetting all the 'London Centric Politician' rubbish, actually the route East from Reading is extremely busy and will have even less capacity than now once full Crossrail service is going. At nights and weekends a lot of it is a 2 track railway anyway because of the possessions on the GWML. Acton Wells Jn, the NLL are hugely busy too. As an aside if the argument is about how many you disturb with stone train at night, you can guarantee that you will wake up many more people between West Drayton and Acton, and Acton to Harrow (on the WCML) than you would ever wake up in Oxford.

The majority of politicians have many more things to worry about than the routing of freight trains and how many are woken up.

Buy a house near an airport - expect aeroplanes, buy a house near a railway - expect trains. We could ban freight trains entirely so the darlings will sleep but then they would complain when the motorways are clogged with stone lorries and container trucks!
 
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