Ex-train driver sentenced for incident at Cannon Street

[Horizon22]

This was a nightmare to deal with, the morning peak was hellish.

I can't remember if it was a 376 or 465 (perhaps one of the SE bods can comment?), but its true that cab security really isn't as strong as it could be. Word went around fairly quick that it was an ex-driver. Can understand some disgruntlement, but that really is no excuse. This sort of things seems very pre-mediated considering he knew exactly where and when would have the biggest impact.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Whilst I agree this guy was more of a nuisance who needs support than a dangerous criminal, you only need to know how to isolate two things in the cab before you can just drive the train forward at any speed without it being stopped by signals.

Nothing will change until something sinister happens, which hopefully it never will and is at best a remote chance, but it seems an odd oversight in such a risk averse society.

I’m sure people said, “I really don’t see the issue,” about locking cockpit doors prior to September 11th.

 

[philthetube]

Cab security is an absolute joke. Particularly contrasted with how station staff can get Stazi-like with spotters taking pictures, the lack of real bins on platforms due to “security,” and the endless chanting of “see it say it sorted.”

You don’t even need to fabricate or buy a T key. I’m sure most drivers who have locked themselves out whilst changing ends have been glad if they’re driving stock with a galley for example.....

I sometimes read the ASLEF LDC minutes for our depot when I’m killing time.

They’ve raised the issue of cab security every meeting with management for about two years. It’s still ongoing, something about who’s funding deadbolts for the doors the TOC or the leasing company.

When you consider the amount of money they happily jizz on pointless things.....

There was a separate thread about this, but by no means all the country has mobile coverage, and there are many stations/halts in very rural areas that don't have mobile connectivity.

The Underground are tackling this issue after persuasion from Aslef, not sure what they are doing though.

 

[Gemz91]

That shouldn’t happen. I’ve raised this with them myself in the past, as it is a trade in stolen items and current spec railway keys are for security purposes.

Budget locks seem to be quite universally used and available to buy online. If you can buy the locks online, I'm sure the keys will be easy to buy too.

Other then that, I always thought it would be quite often when people are clearing out their parents/grandparents/uncles houses after they've died, they would find a load of old railways stuff, just stick them online not realising that they are the same keys that are still used today.

 

[Breize block]

Aren't employees required to hand back their keys when they leave?

I took early retirement over two years ago, but I still have all my keys in the back of a drawer, including several 'security' keys.
There are also a couple of lists or door entry codes in my old diaries, most of which will probably still work.
Security is not taken that seriously, however in saying that I cant really see how it could be controlled properly - it would be a massive undertaking

 

[bramling]

I took early retirement over two years ago, but I still have all my keys in the back of a drawer, including several 'security' keys.
There are also a couple of lists or door entry codes in my old diaries, most of which will probably still work.
Security is not taken that seriously, however in saying that I cant really see how it could be controlled properly - it would be a massive undertaking

It’s impossible to control, and if someone’s intent on causing trouble then they can do so. It doesn’t need someone to do something as elaborate as hijack a train, far more harm could be done with for example a concrete block on the line or even just something metal in a 3rd-rail area.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps the future will see smartcards used to access restricted areas*(with keypads for backup). Only staff with a need to enter the cab would have coded access, and every access would be logged so you knew who and when. I'm sure the unions would ask for that data to be protected so it isn't used to track staff, but it would offer some level of security - and all drivers and other staff with a need to get into a cab would be expected to carry a staff ID.

Staff who leave would lose access. If you were really keen, staff could only get access for a shift if they've touched in at the start of duty.

I have no idea how resilient such a system would need to be if on the exterior of a train, but it cannot be insurmountable. An emergency access could be retained, but if used would require some form of override.

Likewise, such a card could also be required to gain access to any controls.

It would seem likely that such changes would end up applying only to new build trains, as I am sure retrofitting would be both costly and have the potential to introduce all sorts of problems. For one, the train needs a constant data connection, although that makes sense for a number of reasons.

* The same should apply to stations too, as mechanical locks can easily be accessed by simply watching a member of staff enter the code. They're ridiculously easy to get around - and don't even require trying to get a key.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Aren't employees required to hand back their keys when they leave?

Even if he did hand his keys back the employer does not know how many keys he's got.

I've got multiple spare driving keys and carriage door access keys.

 

[Meerkat]

It would need to be contactless ID card access to really restrict access and be able to cancel old ‘keys’.
But then you would have to keep every train regularly updated and always have a power source....
Would make more sense for the drivers key and guards panels than physical access.
Would drivers like to be able to bolt themselves in, or would they then worry about emergency access?

 

[jon0844]

It would need to be contactless ID card access to really restrict access and be able to cancel old ‘keys’.
But then you would have to keep every train regularly updated and always have a power source....
Would make more sense for the drivers key and guards panels than physical access.
Would drivers like to be able to bolt themselves in, or would they then worry about emergency access?

You must still have an emergency access method (inside and out) and so it can never be a secure as an airplane cockpit, but if an emergency access was used then it might lock out certain controls until you can securely 'log in' somehow.

If you're not so worried about an ex-colleague (or member of the public) getting into a cab to merely stop the train, you could just put all the protection on the controls.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're not so worried about an ex-colleague (or member of the public) getting into a cab to merely stop the train, you could just put all the protection on the controls.

It already is on most units, you need the key (not just a T-key) to open the desk. The emergency stop may well work anyway though, I don't know.

 

[jon0844]

It already is on most units, you need the key (not just a T-key) to open the desk. The emergency stop may well work anyway though, I don't know.

But they're relatively easy to obtain, and as has been said here, ex-staff have probably accumulated quite a few. If someone leaves, do they return them all? Just as do they return ALL their uniform as they should?

We can surely do better security these days, using tried and tested security systems that protect secure facilities all around the world. Nothing is 100% foolproof, but one day something bad will happen and then the industry will surely do something. This incident was more annoying than dangerous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But they're relatively easy to obtain, and as has been said here, ex-staff have probably accumulated quite a few. If someone leaves, do they return them all? Just as do they return ALL their uniform as they should?

Are unit desk keys easy to obtain? T-keys are (or make your own, it's just a square key with a hole drilled in it), but I doubt the desk keys are, they vary between different units for a start.

We can surely do better security these days, using tried and tested security systems that protect secure facilities all around the world. Nothing is 100% foolproof, but one day something bad will happen and then the industry will surely do something. This incident was more annoying than dangerous.

So would almost every other conceivable incident. You can't nick off with a train and joy-ride it from Euston to Manchester. You'd get stopped before you even got past the end of the platform.

 

[Raul_Duke]

You can't nick off with a train and joy-ride it from Euston to Manchester. You'd get stopped before you even got past the end of the platform.

What are we counting on to stop the train that can’t be overridden with some basic knowledge?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are we counting on to stop the train that can’t be overridden with some basic knowledge?

Certainly on any electric railway you can turn the juice off.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Certainly on any electric railway you can turn the juice off.

You can, and we’ve seen the absolute chaos that causes with passengers detraining themselves. Surely it’s easier to just put a bloody deadbolt on a door than turn off the WCML?

What if it’s a diesel or a bi-mode then?

 

[GB]

What if it’s a diesel or a bi-mode then?

It would probably be treated as a runaway train and signalled accordingly. It doesn't matter how many security systems or locks are involved, there will always be a chance someone can do something they shouldn't...even more so if they are current or ex staff.

 

[Raul_Duke]

It would probably be treated as a runaway train and signalled accordingly. It doesn't matter how many security systems or locks are involved, there will always be a chance someone can do something they shouldn't...even more so if they are current or ex staff.

In that case why bother having a lock at all? Just keep the doors open, we can just turn off the power or signal it as a runaway.

 

[GB]

Yes very clever

 

[Carlisle]

I’m sure people said, “I really don’t see the issue,” about locking cockpit doors prior to September 11th.

However the downing of Germanwings flight 9525 proved that alone didn’t offer the ultimate solution either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In that case why bother having a lock at all? Just keep the doors open, we can just turn off the power or signal it as a runaway.

Merseyrail EMUs indeed did not have any form of lock on the cab door at all until one of the relatively recent refurbs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However the downing of Germanwings flight 9525 proved that alone didn’t offer the ultimate solution either.

It's also not comparable in terms of what can be "achieved".

 

[ComUtoR]

Are unit desk keys easy to obtain? T-keys are (or make your own, it's just a square key with a hole drilled in it), but I doubt the desk keys are, they vary between different units for a start..

Not sure what a 'desk key' is but if you mean an EP Key, as in one of these :

https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/master-key-jpg.2594/

from this thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/drivers-master-key.32584/

I thought they were universal for pretty much everything (no doubt there are exceptions) Does anyone know, have a link/picture of any other 'desk keys' or 'EP' Keys please. Cheers in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can, and we’ve seen the absolute chaos that causes with passengers detraining themselves. Surely it’s easier to just put a bloody deadbolt on a door than turn off the WCML?

We are talking about highly complex locking systems with dedicated keys, not "a deadbolt" which they essentially already have, requiring a T-key to get in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure what a 'desk key' is but if you mean an EP Key, as in one of these :

https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/master-key-jpg.2594/

from this thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/drivers-master-key.32584/

I thought they were universal for pretty much everything (no doubt there are exceptions) Does anyone know, have a link/picture of any other 'desk keys' or 'EP' Keys please. Cheers in advance.

I meant the key or device required to actually drive the train from the driver's desk (as opposed to get in the cab).

Ah, I stand corrected, I thought they were more like car keys (and I think they may well be on newer units). That is something that would perhaps be better a little more secured.

 

[Meerkat]

If you could override TPWS (no idea if possible and best not made public!) I guess the worst case scenario would be a London terminus.

 

[SPADTrap]

Yes very clever

Well, he/she has a point. With the congested network it would hit something long before preventative signalling methods could be put in place, whatever they are. Signalling it like a run away train won't work everywhere if it's driven and overridden...loops? Few on my high speed mainline. Catch points? No. TPWS can be overridden from the seat... Engine stop in the rear power car if you can get there? Good luck.

You state the obvious, mitigation is what the railway is about and currently that mitigation is extremely poor and its attitudes like yours that allow it to fester, frankly. We need more secure cabs.

 

[43066]

I can't remember if it was a 376 or 465 (perhaps one of the SE bods can comment?), but its true that cab security really isn't as strong as it could be.

I’d assume a 465, because of the emphasis on keys.

Anyone who has signed Electrostars will know how to get into a cab in seconds, without needing any keys at all!

 

[GB]

You state the obvious, mitigation is what the railway is about and currently that mitigation is extremely poor and its attitudes like yours that allow it to fester, frankly. We need more secure cabs.

What attitude is that then? I was simply answering the question and made no claim that signalling hijacked trains as runaways is always going to be practical nor have I made any suggestions that locks or lax security is pointless. Just saying that you can spend millions on a fancy new system but no system is infallible.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’m sure people said, “I really don’t see the issue,” about locking cockpit doors prior to September 11th.

And then, after Eurowings, everyone said "oops, maybe we went too far".

Turns out that every system has a weak point. Who knew?