Excess a Single Ticket to a Return?

[hairyhandedfool]

I do wish the First ticket machines would say 'First Class...' and not just 'First' as I think that's bound to be misleading for some people. Even if only a few people make the mistake, it's still wrong!

ISTR reading in a magazine about a staff brief sent out to ticket offices when First Group took over Great Western which said something along the lines of.....

"If a customer requests a first ticket you should ask if they mean a first class ticket, a First Great Western ticket, a ticket for the first train, a first class ticket for a First Great Western service, a ticket for the first First Great Western service, a first class ticket for the first service or a first class ticket for the first First Great Western service".

 

[lemonic]

Ticket machines could be simplified so much more if they had more of a step-by-step process. As far as I am aware, the current process is:
1. Enter destination.
(2. Choose routing if appropriate.)
3. Choose ticket type
4. Choose adult/child/railcard
5. Pay for ticket

Simple on paper but not in reality. Point 3 presents you with a potentially long list of tickets e.g. for Ipswich to Cambridge Any Permitted, you would have:
Anytime Day Single
Off Peak Day Return
First Anytime Day Single
Anytime Day Return
Off Peak Return
First Anytime Day Return

So 6 options in total. Let's discount the First Class tickets and you are left with 4: But what are the off peak restrictions? Unfortunately you have to click on the ticket first and often after that you have to start again if you want to go back a screen. Some people may be led into buying Anytime tickets if travelling at 6am on a weekday morning, when for some journeys e.g. York to Peterborough, the Off Peak ticket is valid anytime anyway!

What I propose is this:
1. Enter destination
2. Choose routing if appropriate.
3. Standard or First Class?
4. Single or return?
5. If return, are you returning today or within a month?
6. Adult/railcard/child?
Now you have narrowed down the ticket options so all that is left are the different types of ticket e.g. off peak, anytime
Then tricks can be implemented e.g. If you are returning the same day, and you are restricted to travelling after 9am and the time is after 9am, then the off peak day ticket is automatically offered as the anytime day ticket gives no advantage. The customer is shown the ticket and the price and then pays.

If more than one ticket choice is possible, based on restrictions later that day or returning etc., then the possible tickets can be shown on the screen with the restrictions next to them. The ticket is selected and then the customer pays.

 

[snail]

If you engage your brain whilst looking at what is written (otherwise known as reading,) you most likely wouldn't make the mistake of buying a single when you want a return, or vice versa.

Why have you got this idea that all you need to be able to do is be able to read? Despite my earlier post I assure you that I can read. And that TVM layouts are confusing.

When you look at a screen you see more than words, you have boxes and buttons to press in different styles and colours. Most of the time I wouldn't make a mistake but sometimes it happens. The confirmation screens are probably the worst because they always follow the same style so the natural instinct is to press confirm automatically. Have you ever clicked on a software licensing agreement without reading it all first? (Actually, seeing as you work in a ticket office, have you ever used a TVM in anger?)

I used to design application forms in my day job. We reckoned that if you had just one question on them - What is your name? - around 50% would get it wrong!

 

[LexyBoy]

I can't see why using a TVM should be harder than buying a ticket at a window, nor why it should be difficult to program the machines accordingly (excepting complex itineraries etc.).

However, it is.

Here's how a TVM could work more like a person:

1) Select destination, adult/child (defaults to adult), railcard (defaults to none), first/standard (defaults to standard) and date (defaults to today)

2) Select single / day return / month return (day/month returns may be hidden if the appropriate fares are not available)

3) Select outward train from an on-screen list; defaults to the next train. Each train has "Cheapest ticket: £xxx"

4) Select return train from an on-screen list (hidden if a single journey is selected, or if the restrictions wouldn't apply, e.g. a CDR has an 0930 restriction and it's already 10 am)

5) The cheapest ticket for the journey selected is offered, with a full explanation of validity (as shown now). A "show all fares" button would be available for those who wish to buy a ticket for a more expensive route, or an Anytime on a Saturday or whatever.

That way, it's not up to the customer to select the correct fare, but rather they tell the machine when they plan to travel and it selects the best fare for them. Of course there are problems with the above, but it would be better than what we have at the moment.

 

[RJ]

ISTR reading in a magazine about a staff brief sent out to ticket offices when First Group took over Great Western which said something along the lines of.....

"If a customer requests a first ticket you should ask if they mean a first class ticket, a First Great Western ticket, a ticket for the first train, a first class ticket for a First Great Western service, a ticket for the first First Great Western service, a first class ticket for the first service or a first class ticket for the first First Great Western service".

. IME 100% of people wanting a First Class ticket will actually say First Class. And very few people wanting a TOC specific ticket will tell you the TOC they wish to use, despite knowing exactly what ticket they want. Clearly somebody in revenue management there has a sense of humour.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

"If a customer requests a first ticket you should ask if they mean a first class ticket, a First Great Western ticket, a ticket for the first train, a first class ticket for a First Great Western service, a ticket for the first First Great Western service, a first class ticket for the first service or a first class ticket for the first First Great Western service".

Very good!

Clearly somebody in revenue management there has a sense of humour.

Yes! Whereas if they'd been more of a pedant, they'd have commented that a customer requesting the First Ticket would inevitably be dissapointed, as the First Ticket would already have been issued a couple of hundred years beforehand.

 

[exile]

If I took the attitude that if a user of the computer system I help to run made a mistake that was "tough" and I made no attempt to assist, I'd soon lose my job.

 

[district]

Slightly going off topic, but is there any reason why SET TVM's don't issue open returns?

 

[LexyBoy]

Slightly going off topic, but is there any reason why SET TVM's don't issue open returns?

maybe because the "Open Return" hasn't existed for some years?

If you mean Anytime Returns or Off Peak (not Day) Returns, there aren't many flows in the SE where there exist. I have bought such a ticket from Herne Hill before so it is possible.

 

[snail]

I can't see why using a TVM should be harder than buying a ticket at a window, nor why it should be difficult to program the machines accordingly (excepting complex itineraries etc.).

Sounds like you have a good approach there.

I don't have anything like the same issues at Manchester Metrolink TVMs, probably because they have large, easily distinguishable buttons for 'adult', 'single', 'return', etc.

(But then it's been proven I can't read very well so what do I know? )

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't see why using a TVM should be harder than buying a ticket at a window....

Perhaps if you saw ticket sales from the staff side of the window you'd understand why it isn't that simple.

 

[jon0844]

The person at the ticket window generally asks questions to establish the right ticket, while the TVM expects the person to know exactly what they want.

This is why they're so dangerous!

 

[Old Timer]

I can't see why using a TVM should be harder than buying a ticket at a window, nor why it should be difficult to program the machines accordingly (excepting complex itineraries etc.).

However, it is.

Here's how a TVM could work more like a person:

1) Select destination, adult/child (defaults to adult), railcard (defaults to none), first/standard (defaults to standard) and date (defaults to today)

2) Select single / day return / month return (day/month returns may be hidden if the appropriate fares are not available)

3) Select outward train from an on-screen list; defaults to the next train. Each train has "Cheapest ticket: £xxx"

4) Select return train from an on-screen list (hidden if a single journey is selected, or if the restrictions wouldn't apply, e.g. a CDR has an 0930 restriction and it's already 10 am)

5) The cheapest ticket for the journey selected is offered, with a full explanation of validity (as shown now). A "show all fares" button would be available for those who wish to buy a ticket for a more expensive route, or an Anytime on a Saturday or whatever.

That way, it's not up to the customer to select the correct fare, but rather they tell the machine when they plan to travel and it selects the best fare for them. Of course there are problems with the above, but it would be better than what we have at the moment.

A very good idea but most people on here get really upset about the delay caused by putting their ticket through an automatic gate barrier, let alone going through this particular procedure, so I doubt this will win many supporters

Shall we call for some smelling salts ?

 

[RJ]

Perhaps if you saw ticket sales from the staff side of the window you'd understand why it isn't that simple.

Indeed!

 

[handsomelife]

After making up all the excuses in the world, it doesn't change the fact that it is clearly shown on the menu whether the ticket is a single or return. It is then shown again the ticket details once it has been selected, which would clearly have said single. On some machines at least, it will show a third time when you have to insert payment. Seems fairly foolproof to me. This is working under the assumption that the user has the ability to read.

As for ticket offices, unfortunately there are a fair few people within the grade who are quite simply, idiots. It has gotten to the point where I now write into TOCs to praise staff who both showed a positive attitude and issued what I needed. It's nice to receive the same level of service that I used to give my customers. I don't bother complaining about bad service as it's essentially pointless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Like I said, as a ticket office clerk, I used to do it. So it is true.

I'm not sure it works like that, just because you used to do it it doesn't essentially mean it's the right procedure Does it actually say anywhere what the official ruling is?

 

[district]

I think an 'advanced mode' would actually be a quicker option.


Main screen > Advanced mode button > insert destination crs/nlc > insert ticket type code > pay

what is slow about that?

 

[RJ]

I'm not sure it works like that, just because you used to do it it doesn't essentially mean it's the right procedure Does it actually say anywhere what the official ruling is?

Where it comes to excess fares, local instructions take precedence over what's stated in the EFR. Given that you don't even know where to find the official ruling, it's quite laughable that you wish to query my conduct!

 

[snail]

I think an 'advanced mode' would actually be a quicker option.

Main screen > Advanced mode button > insert destination crs/nlc > insert ticket type code > pay

what is slow about that?

Standing behind someone that's selected it then hasn't a clue what to do next...

A bit like watching people struggle with TOD codes, usually because they haven't spotted the 'Confirm' button.

 

[barrykas]

A bit like watching people struggle with TOD codes, usually because they haven't spotted the 'Confirm' button.

The other popular one being people trying to enter the booking reference, rather than the collection reference, and wondering why they can't enter nine digits...

Cheers,

Barry

 

[aleph_0]

I think an 'advanced mode' would actually be a quicker option.


Main screen > Advanced mode button > insert destination crs/nlc > insert ticket type code > pay

what is slow about that?

This would be awesome - certainly for the destination anyway, for ticket type, I think just giving a big button for each type would be easier.

A nice feature would be if one could insert a credit card, the screen would then offer your favourite journeys (with railcard discount), one click, confirm, enter pin, pull card. Ideally the machine could have a cache so that this is instant (or even just per-machine would be pretty useful).

 

[Paul Kelly]

You should't need a separate interface for entering CRS or NLC codes. The standard text entry interface could easily accept them as well as full names.

Why has nobody suggested colour-coding singles and returns? That would be so so easy to do and would make a huge difference to usability IMHO, requiring less reading. Better user interfaces separate different choices by giving them different colours or logos or positions on the screen so you can see differences at a glance, but most TVMs require reading which is relatively slow and error-prone.

First class fares could also be clearly separated using colours, images or separate portions of the screen.

And why does railcard selection not come first? With most staff-operated TIS (as far as I know?) railcard selection comes first. This then often reduces the range of available fares (thus simplifying choice) and shows the correct price, which might also help a user to judge which ticket they wanted (if they knew the price they had previously paid).

 

[RJ]

And why does railcard selection not come first? With most staff-operated TIS (as far as I know?) railcard selection comes first. This then often reduces the range of available fares (thus simplifying choice) and shows the correct price, which might also help a user to judge which ticket they wanted (if they knew the price they had previously paid).

Certainly not in the one I used - in fact, it was the last thing after origin/destination/ticket type/route. I always liked playing with that feature though, always something to surprise me. Certain railcard discounts on certain season tickets was one!

 

[island]

Slightly going off topic, but is there any reason why SET TVM's don't issue open returns?

If you mean TVMs and period returns, they do issue them when available. But most journeys within SET-land only have SDS, SDR, and CDR fares defined. I have bought an off-peak return from Kidbrooke's TVM to Gatwick Airport in the past.

3) Select outward train from an on-screen list; defaults to the next train. Each train has "Cheapest ticket: £xxx"

4) Select return train from an on-screen list (hidden if a single journey is selected, or if the restrictions wouldn't apply, e.g. a CDR has an 0930 restriction and it's already 10 am)

What if the customer doesn't know exactly when he/she wants to return?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....This then often reduces the range of available fares (thus simplifying choice) ....

Not sure how it can reduce the options available. It would only apply a discount (if available) to the fares available.

 

[aleph_0]

Not sure how it can reduce the options available. It would only apply a discount (if available) to the fares available.

Well, pre-10am it could bring the Off Peak and Anytime tickets down to the same cap, such that the Off Peak is no longer an option. Similarly, the Route Any Permitted and Route Not London could now be the same, in which case Not London can be eliminated.

 

[ajdunlop]

I first used to use Virgin's red TVMs and had no problem with these (except they were sometimes a bit slow) then I moved south and for about the 1st 3 times I used the more standard TVMs SWT and FGW have I bought the wrong ticket. The difference is that the Virgin ones only let you choose destination on the 1st screen and then show you the available tickets with prices. The other TVMs show you a most popular tickets screen which has "buttons" which represent a complete ticket I.e. Southampton Central Off-peak return and the only further options are quantity and adding railcards. Although these most popular tickets buttons make since if you know exactly what your after and are used to the machines but if your not they are just confusing. The first thing that you see is the destination and you just touch it not realising you have also selected the ticket type.
I think this popular tickets screen should be replaced with a popular destinations screen and you always get asked what type of ticket on a separate screen with a more information button next to each type of ticket giving all the rules and restrictions applicable.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well, pre-10am it could bring the Off Peak and Anytime tickets down to the same cap, such that the Off Peak is no longer an option. Similarly, the Route Any Permitted and Route Not London could now be the same, in which case Not London can be eliminated.

The Off-Peak fare may have restrictions that the Anytime does not and therefore both should still be offered, also on some train companies Anytime fares have additional benefits at weekends (for return travel). Furthermore, if the Off-Peak is not offered it could be perceived by the passenger that the machine does not offer it when it should.

The only time I can think of for a fare not needing to be shown for route is if one is Any Permitted. At other times it may be confusing to the average passenger, for example, if the route options are 'Not London' and 'London'.

I don't see the benefit of programming a TVM to pick out a small number of routeings to exclude, thus it would not reduce the numbers.

 

[AlterEgo]

I first used to use Virgin's red TVMs and had no problem with these (except they were sometimes a bit slow) then I moved south and for about the 1st 3 times I used the more standard TVMs SWT and FGW have I bought the wrong ticket. The difference is that the Virgin ones only let you choose destination on the 1st screen and then show you the available tickets with prices. The other TVMs show you a most popular tickets screen which has "buttons" which represent a complete ticket I.e. Southampton Central Off-peak return and the only further options are quantity and adding railcards. Although these most popular tickets buttons make since if you know exactly what your after and are used to the machines but if your not they are just confusing. The first thing that you see is the destination and you just touch it not realising you have also selected the ticket type.
I think this popular tickets screen should be replaced with a popular destinations screen and you always get asked what type of ticket on a separate screen with a more information button next to each type of ticket giving all the rules and restrictions applicable.

It's funny you should say that. In the past month or so Virgin actually changed the interface on their TVMs to make the process clearer!

 

[aleph_0]

The Off-Peak fare may have restrictions that the Anytime does not and therefore both should still be offered, also on some train companies Anytime fares have additional benefits at weekends (for return travel). Furthermore, if the Off-Peak is not offered it could be perceived by the passenger that the machine does not offer it when it should.

[snip]

I don't see the benefit of programming a TVM to pick out a small number of routeings to exclude, thus it would not reduce the numbers.

Eh? If I can buy a totally unrestricted anytime for the same price an on Off-Peak, then the machine really should try to sell me the more flexible ticket (other case: if there are e.g. Off Peak Returns, and Off Peak Day Returns which are brought down to the same price, and one restriction is a subset of the other). The machine can quite easily have a button explaining this and offering the hidden tickets (just as if I went to the station and insisted on buying a certain ticket (for my own reasons), they would oblige, but warn me that it would be better to buy the more flexible ticket).

But yes, I do agree this is an edge case.

Edit: I think the idea is to program the machine logic to always eliminate redundant options so this should be done by defining any containment relationships regarding validity at different times, and then only offer tickets applicable (so eliminating the railcard-cap problem, or a non-choice between Super-Off Peak and Off-Peak after midday in most places).

 

[ajdunlop]

What have they changed? They do seem a bit better thought out but I'm not sure they are designed for outdoor use.
Someone else mentioned how Sky let different people make their boxes but specify the software that runs on them, this would seem like the best idea so everything was the same but knowing ATOC they will all be the same but awfull.