Excess Fare Advice

[applepie2100]

I'm trying to work out an excess fare and I'm getting myself confused.

Could someone advise how much it would be to excess from standard to first in one direction only a SOR Anytime Return from Glasgow Cen/Qst to Leeds?

 

[John @ home]

Could someone advise how much it would be to excess from standard to first in one direction only a SOR Anytime Return from Glasgow Cen/Qst to Leeds?

Is the route printed on the ticket ANY PERMITTED or VIA APPLEBY?

 

[applepie2100]

It's an "Any Permitted" ticket priced at £113.50.

 

[John @ home]

Section 4.2.2 Excess procedures: Upgrade to First Class of our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide tells us that to excess "ONE portion (Outward or Return) of a Return ticket, the charge is the DIFFERENCE between the price already paid and the SUM of the appropriate Standard Single for one leg and the appropriate First Single for the other leg. If cheaper then the FULL difference between the Standard Return and the First Return (as if upgrading both legs) is charged."

In this instance, the sum of the appropriate Standard Single for one leg (SOS £103.00) and the appropriate First Single for the other leg (FOS £142.00) is £245.00. The difference between £245.00 and the price already paid (£113.50) is £131.50.

The full difference between between the Standard Return and the First Return is FOR £284.00 minus FOS £142.00 which is £142.00.

The full difference between between the Standard Return and the First Return is FOR £284.00 minus SOR £113.50 which is £170.50.

The amount charged is the lower of the two sums in bold, that is £131.50.

 

[applepie2100]

That's great, thank you John!

 

[pne]

The full difference between between the Standard Return and the First Return is FOR £284.00 minus FOS £142.00 which is £142.00.

Eh? Surely an FOS is a First Single rather than a Standard Return?

Wouldn't SOR £113.50 be the thing to compare with, giving 284.00 - 113.50 = 170.50?

 

[John @ home]

Yes, you're right! I have corrected post #4.

 

[sonic2009]

When would be looking to travel and at what time? And which route?

Via Carlisle/Manchester or via Newcastle?

It may be cheaper to purchase a new ticket.

 

[applepie2100]

It would definitely be significantly cheaper, especially if I can get a cheap advance.

The issue comes down to the employer not allowing first class rail travel full stop hence trying to find the cheapest way for a self funded upgrade!

 

[sonic2009]

What date will you be returning? And an ideal time?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Section 4.2.2 Excess procedures: Upgrade to First Class of our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide tells us that to excess "ONE portion (Outward or Return) of a Return ticket, the charge is the DIFFERENCE between the price already paid and the SUM of the appropriate Standard Single for one leg and the appropriate First Single for the other leg. If cheaper then the FULL difference between the Standard Return and the First Return (as if upgrading both legs) is charged."

In this instance, the sum of the appropriate Standard Single for one leg (SOS £103.00) and the appropriate First Single for the other leg (FOS £142.00) is £245.00. The difference between £245.00 and the price already paid (£113.50) is £131.50.

The full difference between between the Standard Return and the First Return is FOR £284.00 minus FOS £142.00 which is £142.00.

The full difference between between the Standard Return and the First Return is FOR £284.00 minus SOR £113.50 which is £170.50.

The amount charged is the lower of the two sums in bold, that is £131.50.

Eh? Surely an FOS is a First Single rather than a Standard Return?

Wouldn't SOR £113.50 be the thing to compare with, giving 284.00 - 113.50 = 170.50?

Although this is not the way which Avantix Mobile calculates an Excess from Standard to First in One Direction Only. It is physically not possible on Avantix mobile to add fares up and subtract an amount in this manner.

Avantix calculates FOR £284.00 - Price Paid £113.50 / 2 (as it is one direction only) which is £85.25.

So if you do it on board the train it is likely to be £85.25. I'm fairly certain that is station based TIS work it out too. If lucky you will get one of the poorly trained staff that can't be bothered to work it our properly and just charge the difference between the SDS and FDS irrespective of the original ticket held, which is cheaper still at £39.00.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Avantix calculates FOR £284.00 - Price Paid £113.50 / 2 (as it is one direction only) which is £85.25.

So if you do it on board the train it is likely to be £85.25. I'm fairly certain that is station based TIS work it out too. If lucky you will get one of the poorly trained staff that can't be bothered to work it our properly and just charge the difference between the SDS and FDS irrespective of the original ticket held, which is cheaper still at £39.00.

STAR works it out properly (two singles). Myself and a colleague looked this one up a few weeks ago.

 

[applepie2100]

Although this is not the way which Avantix Mobile calculates an Excess from Standard to First in One Direction Only. It is physically not possible on Avantix mobile to add fares up and subtract an amount in this manner.

Avantix calculates FOR £284.00 - Price Paid £113.50 / 2 (as it is one direction only) which is £85.25.

So if you do it on board the train it is likely to be £85.25. I'm fairly certain that is station based TIS work it out too. If lucky you will get one of the poorly trained staff that can't be bothered to work it our properly and just charge the difference between the SDS and FDS irrespective of the original ticket held, which is cheaper still at £39.00.

It's a while since I've used the travel centre at Leeds since it will be return journey from Leeds to Glasgow I'll be excessing.

This could prove interesting!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

STAR works it out properly (two singles). Myself and a colleague looked this one up a few weeks ago.

Interesting. I shall wait to see how Star Mobile does it then. The potential to upset a lot of passengers on TPE who upgrade on board for all or part of a journey in one direction only is looming I fear. A Manchester to Leeds upgrade goes from £11.60 to £17.50 for example.

I have always thought the way Avantix calculates it as half the difference is the fairest way of doing it for the passenger, especially those who want to upgrade for only part of a longer journey, whilst also being fair on those who paid for a First Class ticket in the first place, whilst also making the upgrade cost semi reasonable, which encourages people to do it, which sells more first class seats and increases revenue for the TOC snd reduces conflict for the on board staff. I really never can work out how or why someone dreamt up the current method.

 

[applepie2100]

It does rather seem that the railway excels in coming up with the most complicated and expensive ways of doing things!

 

[CyrusWuff]

It does rather seem that the railway excels in coming up with the most complicated and expensive ways of doing things!

Not really...The concept of excess fares is to charge the difference between the price originally paid and what would have been paid if you'd bought the "correct" ticket originally.

The fact that certain Ticket Issuing Systems don't calculate it correctly due to limitations in their programming (i.e. not asking you to enter all of the relevant details), working instead on a "best guess" basis, is neither here nor there!

It's been a while since I used it, but I seem to recall Tribute (at least until they switched to a Windows front-end) requiring the clerk to calculate excesses themselves and enter the excess amount rather than the original price paid at the relevant stage in the issuing process.

 

[Haywain]

It's been a while since I used it, but I seem to recall Tribute (at least until they switched to a Windows front-end) requiring the clerk to calculate excesses themselves and enter the excess amount rather than the original price paid at the relevant stage in the issuing process.

Tribute indeed worked in that way in the past, meaning that the amount charged for the same excess could vary according to which member of staff calculated it! More recent versions may be more accurate, but not not necessarily as accurate as they should be.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Not really...The concept of excess fares is to charge the difference between the price originally paid and what would have been paid if you'd bought the "correct" ticket originally.

Not necessarily.

In the Manchester to Leeds figures, if you pay half the difference one way, and then decide to upgrade on the way back as well (for whatever perfectly legitimate last minute reason) and pay half the difference again, the total of the original ticket, plus the 2 excess fares is equal to the cost of the FOR, which is what you have actually done. Under the documented process, how exactly do you calculate the excess on the return, should you wish to upgrade again? Or do you do it the same way again, which means the passenger has paid significantly more than they actually needed to pay. It also, in my view, unduly penalises passengers with off-peak tickets and those people who may wish to quite reasonably, upgrade in one direction only.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... Under the documented process, how exactly do you calculate the excess on the return, should you wish to upgrade again? Or do you do it the same way again, which means the passenger has paid significantly more than they actually needed to pay. It also, in my view, unduly penalises passengers with off-peak tickets and those people who may wish to quite reasonably, upgrade in one direction only.

The way I see it you have three options.

1. Excess to two singles.
2. Excess to one return.
3. New single.

Number two is probably the cheapest in most cases, but in some the others might be a better option. The first two options are consistent with "what they would have paid in the first place".

 

[yorkie]

...which sells more first class seats and increases revenue for the TOC snd reduces conflict for the on board staff. I really never can work out how or why someone dreamt up the current method.

Some people in charge of TOCs seem to make the assumption that you can increase the price without affecting passenger numbers, or at least that is the impression the way many of them act appears to me!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Seems to be the model for a lot of businesses, not just the railway, don't know why anyone would be surprised at that.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Not necessarily.

In the Manchester to Leeds figures, if you pay half the difference one way, and then decide to upgrade on the way back as well (for whatever perfectly legitimate last minute reason) and pay half the difference again, the total of the original ticket, plus the 2 excess fares is equal to the cost of the FOR, which is what you have actually done. Under the documented process, how exactly do you calculate the excess on the return, should you wish to upgrade again?

It is to be hoped that common sense would be applied, and the additional amount charged in such a scenario would mean the total amount paid by the passenger was the same as if they had purchased the relevant First Class Return (or two Singles where an appropriate Return doesn't exist) originally.

In practice, however, this may not happen...

Or do you do it the same way again, which means the passenger has paid significantly more than they actually needed to pay. It also, in my view, unduly penalises passengers with off-peak tickets and those people who may wish to quite reasonably, upgrade in one direction only.

The short version is that you can't win regardless of what you do! If a passenger has an Off-Peak Return from A to B costing £50 (for example) and wants to upgrade it to travel during the peak in one direction with an Anytime Return costing £100, Anytime Single costing £50 and Off-Peak Single costing £25.

If you go by the book the excess comes out at £50, but another clerk may decide to only charge £25 given you'd almost always sell the combination of two Singles instead of the Return in such cases...Naturally this would trigger a complaint, and there's no telling who they'd side with when it comes to resolving it.