Excess Fare

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stevetay3

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Hi
Whilst travelling on a north west rover to Dumfrees from Lancaster i asked the conductor on the Scotrail train after Carlisle if i could buy an extension to Glasgow
central and return direct to Lancaster from Glasgow via Lockerbee on virgin.
I was sold a day return to Glasgow from Dumfrees and told may be ok to return via
Lockerbee but check at ticket office before boarding which i did.
Was told at Scotrail window ticket was not valid on virgin,so i asked for an excess to a Carlisle to Glasgow day return any permited,Then told this was not allowed as
virgin would get all money from ticket and there computer said no.Then went to virgin window. Got the same responce and that scotrail were at fault as thay had issued me the wrong ticket in the first place and to get scotrail to sort this out.
One company just wanted to pass the problem to the other with no regard to customer service.

NFM 11

Carlisle - Glasgow SVR 14.70 any permitted with railcard
Dumfrees - Glasgow CDR 11.90 any permitted with railcard

I think i should have been excessed 2.80 to return direct on virgin but was charged
14.40 for new single. Both tickets any permitted so either route valid.
Am i correct or not and is this worth taking up with Scotrail

Thanks
 
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clagmonster

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The Glasgow-Dumfries ticket would be valid by three diffferent routes:
1) You could take a direct train, though there are none which go via Carlisle.
2) You may travel by the shortest route, or any route within 3 miles of it:
Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Dumfries 82.25 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 216.pdf

Glasgow-Carlisle 102.25 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 065.pdf
Carlisle-Dumfries 33 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 216.pdf
Total 135 miles
So the route via Carlisle isn't within 3 miles of the shortest route.
Glasgow Central is a member of the Glasgow Group.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 25

Dumfries is a related station to Carlisle and to Kilmarnock.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 20

To determine which of these routeing points is appropriate, we carry out a fare check:
Glasgow-Dumfries:
SDS £14.50

Glasgow-Carlisle:
SOS £25.00
SVS £21.80
There is no comparable fare, although both these fares are higher than the fare to Dumfires anyway, so Carlise fails the fare check.

Glasgow-Kilmarnock:
SDS £5.70
This is lower than the fare to Dumfries, so Kilmarnock passes the fare check rule.

The only routeing permission from the Glasgow Group to Kilmarnock is: FK.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 346

This gives the following route:
Glasgow Group-Kilmarnock without passing other routeing points.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf page 41

You are then valid via the shortest route from Kilmarnock to Dumfries, which is clearly direct over the GSW.

I can see no easements appropriate to this journey. Therefore, to go via the WCML to Carlisle, you need to pay an additional fare. We will now come to this. The £2.80 excess you have calculated would be an overiding excess. In this case, I see this as diverging from your original route at the point at which the Glasgow-Dumfries ticket ceases to be valid. This point is Glasgow Central. Therefore, my interpretation is that the booking clerks at Glasgow Central were correct to sell you a new ticket.

However, I do think the guard was wrong. Given that you explained that you were returning via the WCML, assuming the booking office at Lancaster was open, and if not you had sufficient time to use the booking office at Carlisle, he should have sold you:
Carlisle-Glasgow Central SOR, route Dumfries, £33.70
Excess return portion to route any permitted: (£49.50-£33.70)/2=£7.90
Total: £41.60
If you ended up paying more than this in total, it may be worth taking this further.

For future reference, I would suggest buying, at the first opportunity (ie at Lancaster or Carlisle booking office if they are open, there is no need to delay your journey at Carlisle if Lancaster booking office is closed) with your railcard:
Carlisle-Glasgow, route Dumfries, SVR £13.00
Excess to any permitted on RTN portion (£14.70-£13.00)/2=£0.85
Total £13.85
This of course assumes tht you travel at times that the SVR time restrictions allow.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Given that the North West Rover is available in 4 in 8 or 7 day validities, it counts as a season ticket under NRCoC condition 19. So, on the train, you should have paid for:

Single Dumfries-Glasgow £14.70 (railcard not applicable)
Single Glasgow-Lockerbie £9.00 (including your railcard discount)

Total: £21.70

If you paid more than this, you should contact the relevant TOC for a refund of the difference.
 

clagmonster

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Oops, I appologise. I did not know that the rover covered Lockerbie. Therefore, HHF is correct, the booking office, assuming they knew about the rover, should have sold a railcard discounted single to Lockerbie. I agree you are entitled to a refund of the difference between that and a Glasgow-Carlisle single.
 

stevetay3

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Did not board train without ticket had valid north west rover so assumed i was intitled to buy extra ticket on train with discounts purchased dumfrees to glasgow ticket long before dumfrees arrival.

Was told split at lockerby on return was also invalid as 18.40 did not stop there,I thought if one ticket is a rover train did not have to call at split point is this not correct

Should have been sold Carlisle to Glasgow return in first place i think and Scotrail should have simpley excessed original ticket

Routeing guide says valid either way, via lockerby shortest route anyway
 

yorkie

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Did not board train without ticket
You did board a train without a ticket to your final destination.

So, unless:

  • Lancaster ticket office was closed, and
  • Your ticket was not checked on the train to Carlisle, and
  • You did not have time at Carlisle while changing trains
It is correct for the guard to refuse a Railcard discount and sell an Anytime (Day) Single or Anytime (Day) Return.

However providing the guard is approached before your first ticket expires many guards will show discretion.

had valid north west rover so assumed i was intitled to buy extra ticket on train with discounts purchased dumfrees to glasgow ticket long before dumfrees arrival.
That's not what the NRCoC says.
Was told split at lockerby on return was also invalid as 18.40 did not stop there
That is incorrect information. If you were told this, I'd complain.
I thought if one ticket is a rover train did not have to call at split point is this not correct
You are correct. See Condition 19(c) of the NRCoC.
Should have been sold Carlisle to Glasgow return in first place i think and Scotrail should have simpley excessed original ticket
You'd have been better off with a ticket from Carlisle to Glasgow, as stated by Clagmonster.
 

tony_mac

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. The £2.80 excess you have calculated would be an overiding excess. In this case, I see this as diverging from your original route at the point at which the Glasgow-Dumfries ticket ceases to be valid. This point is Glasgow Central. Therefore, my interpretation is that the booking clerks at Glasgow Central were correct to sell you a new ticket.
I don't understand this - what is wrong with excessing Glasgow to Dumfries into Glasgow to Carlisle?
That would be valid via Dumfries anyway.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Did not board train without ticket had valid north west rover so assumed i was intitled to buy extra ticket on train with discounts purchased dumfrees to glasgow ticket long before dumfrees arrival.

Was told split at lockerby on return was also invalid as 18.40 did not stop there,I thought if one ticket is a rover train did not have to call at split point is this not correct

Should have been sold Carlisle to Glasgow return in first place i think and Scotrail should have simpley excessed original ticket

Routeing guide says valid either way, via lockerby shortest route anyway
For the purposes of an over-distance excess (over-riding), if there were facilities to get the ticket you require before boarding a train you should be sold the full Anytime Single or Return fare for the extra distance, if buying on board the train.

NRCoC condition 19 states that a combination of tickets can be used if, together, they cover the entire journey and atleast one of the following also apply:

a) Both tickets are zonal; or
b) The train stops where the tickets change over; or
c) One is a season ticket or leisure pass (not issued by or on behalf of a local authority) and the other(s) is/are not.

For the purposes of c), a season ticket or leisure pass is one which is valid for atleast seven consecutive days or for atleast three days in a seven day period.

The guard had no obligation to offer the Carlisle-Glasgow fare, although it *may* have been offered by a ticket office before you boarded a train.
 
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clagmonster

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I don't understand this - what is wrong with excessing Glasgow to Dumfries into Glasgow to Carlisle?
That would be valid via Dumfries anyway.
If the passenger is travelling via Dumfries, then yes they are overriding so can be sold the over riding excess. However, in this case, the passenger is not overriding as they are travelling via Lockerbie, which is not on the line of route for their ticket, so my interpretation is that they should be treated as diverging from the line of route, so sold a new ticket from the point of divergence, which in this case is Glasgow Central.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The guard had no obligation to offer the Carlisle-Glasgow fare, although it *may* have been offered by a ticket office before you boarded a train.
I disagree with you there, as it is the appropriate ticket for the journey. However, he should offer the undiscounted anytime fare, just like if he was selling a ticket from Dumfries to a passenger who boarded at Carlisle.
 

yorkie

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I don't understand this - what is wrong with excessing Glasgow to Dumfries into Glasgow to Carlisle?
That would be valid via Dumfries anyway.
Nothing. The excess should have been given and both ticket offices gave out incorrect information. However obtaining excess fares can be very 'hit and miss', anyone requiring one is advised to 'shop around' until you find someone willing to do the excess you want.

Of course, there are a few excesses for which you can simply board the train and don't have to worry if the ticket office cannot do it, such as change of route excesses. But over-distance should be purchased from the ticket office before traveling and many ticket offices do not know how to do it.

It is unclear, if the ticket office does not know how to issue a ticket, whether or not that means the customer has fulfilled their obligations to purchase before boarding and is then entitled to the full range on board, or not, but when I am in that situation I approach the guard (before boarding if possible) explaining the situation, each time the guard has then issued the excess correctly.
 

island

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It is unclear, if the ticket office does not know how to issue a ticket, whether or not that means the customer has fulfilled their obligations to purchase before boarding and is then entitled to the full range on board, or not, but when I am in that situation I approach the guard (before boarding if possible) explaining the situation, each time the guard has then issued the excess correctly.
I have had this occur several times on LM and have never had an issue sorting things out with the guard. I would have been quite displeased if charged an anytime/penalty fare as the full range of tickets was not available where I started my journey.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....I disagree with you there, as it is the appropriate ticket for the journey. However, he should offer the undiscounted anytime fare, just like if he was selling a ticket from Dumfries to a passenger who boarded at Carlisle.
The passenger is over-riding and so the ticket should be from the point the ticket held no longer covers the journey to the new destination. The ticket held is valid to Dumfries and the new destination is Glasgow. The excess ticket should therefore be the Dumfries-Glasgow single (or return).

Nothing. The excess should have been given and both ticket offices gave out incorrect information. However obtaining excess fares can be very 'hit and miss', anyone requiring one is advised to 'shop around' until you find someone willing to do the excess you want....
I agree with Clagmonster here. There is a difference between over-riding and going off route to a new destination, the former requires going via Dumfries (which the Op was not), the latter does not. The over-distance excess was not the correct thing to do.
 

stevetay3

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Did not board without ticket

No check on Lancaster - Carlisle

Lancaster Ticket office not used as did not decide to go on to Glasgow until i got to Carlisle 5m connection.

Would have gone to Carlisle booking office had time permited but had valid ticket to Dumfries dont see why I cannot buy discounted ticket on train.

Should have asked for Carlisle to Glasgow return ticket in first place simple error on my part but can not see why this could not be altered in Glasgow as i went to booking office in Glasgow before boarding Carlisle train.
 

yorkie

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No, it is overdistance, as Dumfries is en-route to Carlisle. The ticket would then happen to be valid by another route, but that is incidental.

In my opinion the OP asked for the wrong ticket(s) and also should have already bought the ticket(s), the guard was only doing what he was asked to do, and the staff who then refused the excess were incorrect (but this is not uncommon).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Did not board without ticket
But... (no, I won't say it again, read what I said above)

Lancaster Ticket office not used as did not decide to go on to Glasgow until i got to Carlisle 5m connection.
It's either one journey or it's two journeys.

If it's one journey, you should have got the ticket at Lancaster. If it's a separate journey you should have got the ticket at the ticket office where you completed your first journey. Which is it?


Would have gone to Carlisle booking office had time permited but had valid ticket to Dumfries dont see why I cannot buy discounted ticket on train.
If you are counting your first journey as to Dumfries, then you get off at Dumfries, and get a ticket for your second journey at Dumfries.
Should have asked for Carlisle to Glasgow return ticket in first place simple error on my part but can not see why this could not be altered in Glasgow as i went to booking office in Glasgow before boarding Carlisle train.
Agreed
 

tony_mac

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If the passenger is travelling via Dumfries, then yes they are overriding so can be sold the over riding excess. However, in this case, the passenger is not overriding as they are travelling via Lockerbie, which is not on the line of route for their ticket
Are you saying that, once an excess is sold, it can only be used to travel via the original destination station?
I don't recall seeing any rule which says this.

What about excessing to Carlisle route Dumfries, then excessing again from that to route Any Permitted?

However, he should offer the undiscounted anytime fare, just like if he was selling a ticket from Dumfries to a passenger who boarded at Carlisle.
If the passenger alighted and boarded at Gretna, he would have been sold the discounted off-peak fare.
I don't think many Scotrail guards (or Northern) would be so churlish as to refuse a discounted fare in these circumstances.
 

hairyhandedfool

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No, it is overdistance, as Dumfries is en-route to Carlisle. The ticket would then happen to be valid by another route, but that is incidental....
The Op stated to the Guard and to the Clerks that he (??) was going back via Lockerbie. That is a clear cut case of "deviation off route to a new destination", ergo, a new ticket from Glasgow. Given the OP held a combination of tickets that was valid via Dumfries, I would be very surprised if a Clerk (or Guard) did an over-distance excess on it.

....the guard was only doing what he was asked to do, and the staff who then refused the excess were incorrect (but this is not uncommon)....
Hate to burst your bubble, but the Guard did not offer or sell what the Op asked for, so how you think he was "only doing what he was asked to do" is beyond me!

The only mistake the Clerks made was in not knowing the combination of Glasgow-Lockerbie single and North West Rover was valid, yet you say they were "incorrect"!

Both the Guard and the Clerks made errors and both cost the op money that shouldn't have needed to be spent, but there was no excess fare to sell at any point.
 

clagmonster

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Are you saying that, once an excess is sold, it can only be used to travel via the original destination station?
I don't recall seeing any rule which says this.
The excess is described in the manual as over-riding, now in my mind, in order to over-ride, you need to ride, ie travel to the destination on the original ticket, before you can over-ride. I suppose, yes, I am saying that, where the excess is for over-riding.
I think that the reason this has come about is that the rules haven't consider this set of circumstances. They assume that the over-riding will always take place on a linear route, not in a case where there is an alternative route available. I think it is unclear because nobody has thought of the case when writing the excess rules.

I would agree that the overiding excess would have to be 'route Dumfries'.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Are you saying that, once an excess is sold, it can only be used to travel via the original destination station?
I don't recall seeing any rule which says this.....
If someone has a return ticket from Dumfries to Glasgow, and they state they are now travelling back to Carlisle via Lockerbie, they will be sold a ticket to Carlisle as that is "deviation off route to a new destination".

If a passenger holds a North West Rover (valid between Carlisle and Dumfries) and a return ticket from Dumfries to Glasgow, and requests an over-distance excess to Carlisle they will be reminded that they hold a valid combination of tickets for the journey and do not require an excess.
 

tony_mac

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I would agree that the overiding excess would have to be 'route Dumfries'.
which could then, presumably, be excessed to 'Any permitted'.

If over-distances are allowed, and off-route is allowed, doesn't it make sense to assume that both over-distance and off-route is also allowed?
 

yorkie

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The Op stated to the Guard and to the Clerks that he (??) was going back via Lockerbie. That is a clear cut case of "deviation off route to a new destination", ergo, a new ticket from Glasgow. Given the OP held a combination of tickets that was valid via Dumfries, I would be very surprised if a Clerk (or Guard) did an over-distance excess on it.
I admit it was unwise for the passenger to state he wanted to go back via Lockerbie.

Nevertheless, had the ticket been excessed, then providing it was routed Any Permitted, it would have been valid via either route.


Hate to burst your bubble, but the Guard did not offer or sell what the Op asked for, so how you think he was "only doing what he was asked to do" is beyond me!
Well we don't know exactly what the guard was asked for, but it appears he was asked for a ticket from Dumfries to Glasgow, which he did.
The only mistake the Clerks made was in not knowing the combination of Glasgow-Lockerbie single and North West Rover was valid, yet you say they were "incorrect"!
I believe they were incorrect to refuse to excess a ticket from a station that is clearly en-route between Carlisle and Glasgow into a Carlisle to Glasgow ticket.

However while we don't know exactly what was asked for, it does appear that the OP may have asked the question in such a way that the clerks thought it wasn't valid. The clerks also appear to be unaware of NRCoC Condition 19(c).
Both the Guard and the Clerks made errors and both cost the op money that shouldn't have needed to be spent, but there was no excess fare to sell at any point.
I disagree, though the OP should have simply bought a Carlisle to Glasgow route Dumfries with a change of route excess for the return portion into route Any Permitted. Also the ticket should have been purchased at either Lancaster ticket office (if it was open) or Carlisle ticket office.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I admit it was unwise for the passenger to state he wanted to go back via Lockerbie.

Nevertheless, had the ticket been excessed, then providing it was routed Any Permitted, it would have been valid via either route....
But it would not have been "Rte Any Permitted" as the 'Rte Dumfries' ticket is cheaper. If they had stated they may not be going back via Dumfries, the clerk should have enquired which route was to be taken, in order to offer the correct fare, and sold either the 'Rte Dumfries' excess or a new single to Carlisle depending on the route they wished to take.

....Well we don't know exactly what the guard was asked for, but it appears he was asked for a ticket from Dumfries to Glasgow, which he did....
Oh really? So now you don't know if the Guard was "only doing what he was told to do"?:roll:

.....I believe they were incorrect to refuse to excess a ticket from a station that is clearly en-route between Carlisle and Glasgow into a Carlisle to Glasgow ticket....
Except that it isn't en-route because the Op stated that travel was via Lockerbie, hence off route to a new destination rather than over-distance!

....However while we don't know exactly what was asked for, it does appear that the OP may have asked the question in such a way that the clerks thought it wasn't valid....
Perhaps they knew the excess wasn't valid or the correct thing to do, which it isn't by the way. However, as you are now unsure as to what was or was not said, I don't believe you are in a position to comment on their actions.

.... The clerks also appear to be unaware of NRCoC Condition 19(c)....
Indeed, as has been noted previously in this thread.

I disagree.....
So, when the Guard was asked for a ticket to return via Lockerbie (as the op states), did the Guard offer a ticket that was valid via Lockerbie on the return (as stated by the Op?

When the Clerks were asked if the ticket was valid via Lockerbie (as the op states), did they state it was not (as stated by the OP)? And did the Op end up with a ticket to Carlisle that was valid via Lockerbie (as stated by the Op)?

Oh wait, I'm forgetting that you can't answer any of those questions because you don't know what was said on either occasion, but don't let that stop you disagreeing at all.

....though the OP should have simply bought a Carlisle to Glasgow route Dumfries with a change of route excess for the return portion into route Any Permitted. Also the ticket should have been purchased at either Lancaster ticket office (if it was open) or Carlisle ticket office.
That would have been the best thing to do, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
 
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