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Excess Fares Query - Appeal againt Penalty Charge at St Panc

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swt_passenger

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- Can a TOC issue a Penalty Fare to someone who has started their journey from a station within a PFS, if that station is not part of their own PFS?

Yes - it depends on detailed agreements between TOCs though, which aren't in the public domain. If you look at a lot of the PF posters in South London, you'll see they have a number of the TOCs in the area listed along the bottom. I'd tend to think FCC and SN are almost bound to have an agreement in place.

I know for a fact SN and SWT have. SWT RPIs even operate on SN trains in the Southampton area. Their website PF Q&A just includes this:

Q. Does South West Trains issue Penalty Fares on other train operating companies services?
A. We have agreements with some other train operating companies; details of these are available from our Customer Service Centre.
 
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MikeWh

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What you quoted is not part of the passenger/TOC contract and therefore is not relevant to the OP's situation.

True, but it is relevant to whether the TOC is operating the scheme properly. Were the OP to complain to the DfT that they weren't, wouldn't FCC be in danger of losing their ability to operate the scheme. Maybe not on one issue alone, but if multiple complaints were to be received? If the TOC felt that was a possibility then maybe they might be minded to overturn the issue of the PF.

4.33 Under rule 7, a person cannot be charged a penalty fare if there were no ticket facilities available at the station where they joined the train, or if the warning notices required by rule 4 were not properly displayed. If a passenger says that they could not buy a ticket or that there were no warning signs, an authorised collector must be able to check that the warning signs are in place and not covered up or damaged, and whether ticket machines are working properly or the ticket office is open. Authorised collectors also need to know when long queues build up at a ticket office so that they can use their discretion towards passengers travelling from that station. This is usually done by giving each authorised collector a mobile phone and a pager to keep them in contact with a central control centre. Arrangements must be made for station staff to contact the control centre if a ticket office closes early or if long queues build up, and to advise the control centre of any ticket or 'permit to travel' machines that are not working. Operators must explain how 'permit to travel' and ticket machines at unstaffed stations will be monitored.
• Clear criteria for accepting or turning down an appeal.We believe that appeals should be
accepted in the following situations.

– If an operator has failed to meet the requirements of its scheme, the rules or the
regulations. For example, if warning notices were not properly displayed in line with
rule 4, or the passenger could not buy a ticket because there were no ticket facilities
available at the station where they joined the train.
– Where appropriate discretion has not been used. For example, if the authorised
collector has not used his or her discretion in line with the guidelines which he or she has
been given.
Those bits together suggest that there ought to be a chance that the OPs appeal will succeed.
 

RJ

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True, but it is relevant to whether the TOC is operating the scheme properly. Were the OP to complain to the DfT that they weren't, wouldn't FCC be in danger of losing their ability to operate the scheme. Maybe not on one issue alone, but if multiple complaints were to be received? If the TOC felt that was a possibility then maybe they might be minded to overturn the issue of the PF.


Those bits together suggest that there ought to be a chance that the OPs appeal will succeed.

I suspect there would have to be multiple complaints on a regular basis at the same station before the DfT would take action. If the long queue was just an occasional thing, perhaps due to staff sickness or a customer taking up an excessive amount of the clerk's time then I don't think it would apply. I don't know the arrangement for Brighton specifically but for some busy stations, part of the franchise agreement is that a minimum of one window at any time needs to be open in the advertised hours.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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b0b said:
its a requirement of any penalty fare scheme in operation:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legis...policya?page=5

Note also, the requirement: "passengers must be given a sufficient opportunity to buy a ticket or permit to travel before they get on a penalty fares train" - so that ends the discussion on whether Portslade is relevant... the requirement is tied to trains..

edit: ok, it doesn't say you can travel without a ticket, but it does say you should NOT be charged a PF for doing so.
That is not part of the contract between the passenger and the TOC. It's between the TOC and the DfT and thus is not relevant.
I disagree.

I would argue that, in such circumstances, the officer of the TOC acted ultra vires and consequently that action (the issue of a Penalty Fare) may be succesfully challenged in Law.
See Judgement of Lord Diplock in Council of Civil Service Unions v. Minister for the Civil Service (1984) for a helpful analysis.

With more of a Railway interest, there is the often quoted Boddington v. British Transport Police (1998 ) in which Boddington's Appeal failed, but the points on which this PF issue would be challenged appear, to me, to fall within the realm of ultra vires which the Lords acknowledge could have led to the quashing of the Prosecution against Boddington.
 

Greenback

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I suspect there would have to be multiple complaints on a regular basis at the same station before the DfT would take action. If the long queue was just an occasional thing, perhaps due to staff sickness or a customer taking up an excessive amount of the clerk's time then I don't think it would apply. I don't know the arrangement for Brighton specifically but for some busy stations, part of the franchise agreement is that a minimum of one window at any time needs to be open in the advertised hours.

It would be unfair to penalise a TOC if this was an isolated incident. However, based on my experience working in the ticket office myself, and as a customer all around the entwork, many companies do not eepr the establishment up to strength with resulting window closures and queues at all times of day. Similarly, TOC's don;t appear to have cover for breaks and sickness available, and have been deliberately keeping staff levels low to save money. they are aided in this by the lack of any effective enforcement on queuing times.
 

paul1609

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Hello Everyone,

Been meaning to join for a while but never got round to it. Got into a ruck with two FCC staff last night and I wanted to know if I stood a chance of appeal on the following letter which explains the situation....

I'm mainly so annoyed because of the lack of consistency and leniency. I think FCC were so blasé about it because I don't buy my season ticket through them, but Southern.

To Whom It May Concern,

I am writing to appeal against the penalty charge issued to me at St Pancras Domestic station on the evening of Tuesday 10th August 2010.

I made my regular journey from Portslade to Norwood Junction as always via Brighton and on this occasion, I needed to go past Norwood Junction and on to London to meet a colleague. I arrived at Brighton at 19.18 and intended to board the 19.34 FCC service to Bedford, with the plan to alight at St Pancras. I immediately went to the ticket office at Brighton to purchase a London travelcard for zones 1-4 as I do regularly at many stations using my annual gold card season ticket to receive a discount. I waited 12 minutes in the queue at Brighton and not one person infront of me got served in that time and when one window became free, the ticket officer simply closed his booth despite the queue of at least ten people. Please feel free to check the CCTV at Brighton to verify my claim.

As I had to leave the queue to catch the train to London I intended to purchase a travelcard at St Pancras Domestic excess fares window before the ticket barrier as I do regularly at Victoria and London Bridge when no ticket inspector is available on the train. I have done this at least fifty times within the last twelve months. Upon arrival at St Pancras, the excess fares window was unmanned and had bags and belongings of staff on it. I therefore immediately made my intentions clear to the gate staff at St Pancras that I wanted to purchase a travelcard as an excess fare on top of my season ticket, something I've done on numerous occasions without any problems at all at other London mainline stations. The member of staff, (Name removed) immediately went on the offensive and said he wasn't prepared to sell me a travelcard like at other London stations as I'd breached penalty fare regulations. I then proceeded to give the same defence to both (Name removed) and his colleague (Name removed) but they simply weren't interested and were determined to issue me with a penalty fare. (Name removed) in particular was very unprofessional throughout, texting on her mobile phone whilst dealing with me (again, check the CCTV) and claiming that St Pancras didn't have an excess fares window, despite us standing next to it with its ticket machine and tickets and said that St Pancras has a different policy to excess fares than both London Bridge and Victoria stations. I could have argued my case all evening to them but they weren't interested in logic, consistency or even discretion towards a customer who's annual season ticket costs £2500 a year.

I am therefore appealing against the penalty charge on the following grounds:

1. I attempted to buy a travelcard at Brighton station and I had to wait an unacceptable amount of time to do so and would have missed my train.

2. There was no guard or ticket inspector onboard the train to purchase an extension railcard from.

3. A severe lack of consistency, why can I purchase travelcards from excess fare windows at Victoria and London Bridge but not St Pancras? I could have alighted from the Brighton-Bedford train at London Bridge ten minutes earlier and would have purchased a travelcard without any problems at all, as I have done before.

4. I made my intentions clear to (Name removed) at St Pancras as soon as I alighted, at no point did I even attempt to get through the ticket barriers without a valid ticket.
5. The penalty fare slip is filled out as being from “Brighton to St Pancras,” this is incorrect as the accused offence would only have taken place between East Croydon and St Pancras as my season ticket covers me up to East Croydon

I await your response. I am very annoyed about this, not because of the money but because of the injustice given the inconsistency between members of staff and station ticket offices in London, and the unprofessional nature of the staff at both St Pancras and Brighton.

Sorry but this has all the hallmarks of someone trying it on and wriggling when caught.
I have every sympathy will genuine cases but in this case you had ample time to catch the 19.18 train from Portslade to Victoria which would have allowed you 12-15 minutes to change to the same FCC train (you were allegedly trying to catch from Brighton) at either Haywards Heath or East Croydon.

In the unlikely event that the Guard couldn't sell you the ticket on board you'd have ample time to walk to the ticket office and rejoin your connection.

I reckon as a season ticket holder you would have almost certainly realised it would be quicker to get a London train from Portslade and that you would have ample ticket buying opportunities on those trains.

Its only £20 pay up and in future buy the correct ticket.
 

Deerfold

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Sorry but this has all the hallmarks of someone trying it on and wriggling when caught.
I have every sympathy will genuine cases but in this case you had ample time to catch the 19.18 train from Portslade to Victoria which would have allowed you 12-15 minutes to change to the same FCC train (you were allegedly trying to catch from Brighton) at either Haywards Heath or East Croydon.

In the unlikely event that the Guard couldn't sell you the ticket on board you'd have ample time to walk to the ticket office and rejoin your connection.

I reckon as a season ticket holder you would have almost certainly realised it would be quicker to get a London train from Portslade and that you would have ample ticket buying opportunities on those trains.

Its only £20 pay up and in future buy the correct ticket.

If the OP arrived at Brighton at 19.18 I don't think they'd have plenty of time to catch a 19.18 train out of Brighton. It also require passengers to have detailed notice of local services outside of their locality.
 

paul1609

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If the OP arrived at Brighton at 19.18 I don't think they'd have plenty of time to catch a 19.18 train out of Brighton. It also require passengers to have detailed notice of local services outside of their locality.

He says that he travelled from Portslade so he would have travelled on the 19.09 train to Brighton arr. 19.18.
I dont think there are many Westcoastway travelcard season ticket holders (particularly one who "had travelled to Victoria and London Bridge fifty times in the previous twelve months") who would not realise that a London train 9 minutes later would offer better connections and ticket buying opportunities.

Portslade has LED PIS displays ie 1. Brighton 19.09, 2 London Victoria 19.18.
 

Greenback

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Isn't it the same valid argument to allow 16 minutes to change trains at Brighton and buy a ticket there? If Iw as at Portslade and had a choice of two trains, I'd probably take the earlier one if only because I'd at least be on the move! the Op says they always travel via Brighton. Perhaps they have reasons for this, perhaps it's just habit.

Anywya, suppose the queuse at the other interchange points were as bad, or worse> How cna one tell in advance where is the best place to get a ticket quickly? I'm also not sure that we should be imposing changing at a partiocular location over another, whatever happened to customer choice?!
 

djh1986

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Sorry but this has all the hallmarks of someone trying it on and wriggling when caught.
I have every sympathy will genuine cases but in this case you had ample time to catch the 19.18 train from Portslade to Victoria which would have allowed you 12-15 minutes to change to the same FCC train (you were allegedly trying to catch from Brighton) at either Haywards Heath or East Croydon.

In the unlikely event that the Guard couldn't sell you the ticket on board you'd have ample time to walk to the ticket office and rejoin your connection.

I reckon as a season ticket holder you would have almost certainly realised it would be quicker to get a London train from Portslade and that you would have ample ticket buying opportunities on those trains.

Its only £20 pay up and in future buy the correct ticket.

Away for the weekend so will be very brief.

Not trying it on, only trying to do the same thing I've done numerous times before at other London interchanges.

Certainly quicker to go to Brighton and change there and try and a buy a ticket there than get the 19.18 to Victoria which arrives at East Croydon at 20.09. The same train I was on from Brighton to St Panc leaves East Croydon at 20.15. This is not a 12-18 min connection.

With the benefit of hindsight, I should have gone to Victoria on the 19.18 and just paid my fiver at the excess fare window as always and caught the tube to St Panc, thought a direct train from the South Coast would be easier.
 

jon0844

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Or refused the PF and demanded they take a statement and refer to court, which is where these things need to be tested!

I personally reckon they'd have backed down.
 

djh1986

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Or refused the PF and demanded they take a statement and refer to court, which is where these things need to be tested!

I personally reckon they'd have backed down.

Very true, it's often the case that you need to stand up to the RPI's and start bullying them rather than being bullied and acting superior to them. I was already late for meeting my friend so I just swallowed it and got on with it. After reading this thread I'll certainly be fighting harder in future.

I once saw an elderly chap who was sitting in First Class on a very overcrowded Southern train absolutely destroy a Metronet RPI between Clapham Junction and East Croydon who tried to PF him for sitting there. Anyone with eyes would have seen he was too frail to stand and he simply read the riot act and offered to take it to court and he soon backed down.
 

paul1609

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Away for the weekend so will be very brief.

Not trying it on, only trying to do the same thing I've done numerous times before at other London interchanges.

Certainly quicker to go to Brighton and change there and try and a buy a ticket there than get the 19.18 to Victoria which arrives at East Croydon at 20.09. The same train I was on from Brighton to St Panc leaves East Croydon at 20.15. This is not a 12-18 min connection.

With the benefit of hindsight, I should have gone to Victoria on the 19.18 and just paid my fiver at the excess fare window as always and caught the tube to St Panc, thought a direct train from the South Coast would be easier.

I agree that the connection at East Croydon is only 6 mins and that that would be insufficient to visit the ticket office my error.

But the fact remains that taking the London train would have allowed you extra time at Portslade to buy the extra ticket. You have not said that the ticket office there was closed?

Even failing that it is very unlikely that you would have been unable to buy the excess ticket from the guard of the London Train. I do it all the time on this very same service when travelling on an super off peak ticket, I can think of one occasion when the guard had a defective machine but that once in hundreds of trips They are usually very keen to sell extra tickets as they are on commission.

Fact is you are admitting to travelling beyond the validity of your ticket on numerous occasions. You could have been penalty fared on any of these, the fact that they subsequently sell you a travelcard is irrelevant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or refused the PF and demanded they take a statement and refer to court, which is where these things need to be tested!

I personally reckon they'd have backed down.

A friend of mine over travelled on 2 stations on a southeastern point to point season ticket within the London Travelcard zone. He was successfully prosecuted and now has a criminal record. I personally wouldnt recommend refusing a penalty fare for the sake of a £20.
I think your own case was rather different as you didnt have the opportunity to buy the correct ticket.
 

djh1986

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Fact is you are admitting to travelling beyond the validity of your ticket on numerous occasions. You could have been penalty fared on any of these, the fact that they subsequently sell you a travelcard is irrelevant.

It isn't, it shows that the staff at the excess fares windows are human beings who understand common sense and modern day travel plans rather than bureaucrats who insist on playing everything by the book and needlessly annoying a good customer.

Most people in my position would have gone to Brighton for the St Pancras train, if nothing else then there is more chance of getting a seat there.
 

jon0844

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A friend of mine over travelled on 2 stations on a southeastern point to point season ticket within the London Travelcard zone. He was successfully prosecuted and now has a criminal record. I personally wouldnt recommend refusing a penalty fare for the sake of a £20.
I think your own case was rather different as you didnt have the opportunity to buy the correct ticket.

I accept it is different, but at the same time I very much doubt that they would be able to prove intent to defraud given the circumstances. It might be a 'risk' worth taking, given I am doubtful a prosecution would be successful.

And, if there ever was any suggestion of an intention to defraud then why was a PF even being offered in the first place?

The TOC seems to bank on the fact that you'd be too scared to go to court, which is why the £20 seems like an easy way of sorting the problem out. By the time many people get home, they won't bother to appeal either.
 
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I dont know about the excess fare windows at St Pancras but the ones that are manned at Victoria and London Bridge are ticket office staff and not trained to give out penalty fares, however it is often during peak periods during the day that RPI's will also assist and will either hand out a penalty fare or pass the passenger on to the window to deal with depending on their circumstances.
If the circumstances are dubious then they do contact the station to see if there have been issues regarding queues etc.
The amount of people coming off trains on the coastal side of Victoria asking for tickets from Clapham Junction when it is blatently obvious they have come from further afield is quite remarkable (especially when their suitcase behind them has a LGW airplane sticker still attached :lol:)
 

RJ

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I think only a fool would let it go to court if they're relying on sympathy for not following the rules. Why on earth would you choose to let someone take you court if there was any element of risk to yourself involved? £20 or a criminal record?

When I got a PF at Liverpool Street NR for Oyster related problems, I was in conversation with the RPIs for 90 minutes. Several ticket office staff and some of the managers came and got involved but none of them could force the RPI to get it go. The police were also summoned and present but I was completely unfazed. I only gave up because I had a shift at work I had to be on time for. I hope the commission the RPI got was worth it as he lost it as soon as I appealed and it has probably cost his employer at least 100x as much so far with me fighting it.

In my own situation I would have been prepared to let it go to court, as having examined every single word of the passenger/TOC contract numerous times, I was 100% positive that I was not in breach of one single clause. This was corroborated by TfL, a couple of railway professionals and a solicitor.


It isn't, it shows that the staff at the excess fares windows are human beings who understand common sense and modern day travel plans rather than bureaucrats who insist on playing everything by the book and needlessly annoying a good customer.

Most people in my position would have gone to Brighton for the St Pancras train, if nothing else then there is more chance of getting a seat there.


If the staff elect to show discretion, it doesn't change your obligation as a customer to buy a valid ticket at the earliest opportunity. There should be a warning printed on the back of excess fares window ticket stock with words to the same effect.
 

djh1986

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Appeal Successful! Hurrah!

Appears they've thrown the PF out on the grounds of the queueing times at Brighton station rather than anything else.

Still leaves me confused with future journeys regarding buying extensions to my gold card at Excess Fares windows.
 

MikeWh

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Well done. As you say, it would have been nice to have clarified the different approach taken by Southern vs FCC, but at least you've got your money back.

Perhaps it might be worthwhile trying to get the local station ticket office to issue the excess next time to see if they can. If they have difficulty then perhaps that explains why Southern are happy with the excess. Personally, if I was in your position I'd always try to get the excess either at the local station or at Brighton now, just to be safe. There's always the chance an RPI might check tickets between East Croydon and Victoria next time.

Did they make any comment about the attitude of the staff at St Pancras, especially the one who seemed more concerned about a mobile phone call?
 

jon0844

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Keep a photocopy of the appeal letter for the next time you encounter staff at St Pancras. I'm now having to carry letters that say I can sit in a first class compartment when it's declassified, as well as a copy of the answer from the MD about getting a ticket extension at the destination when I can't buy one before! I shouldn't have to, but it will make your life easier!
 

djh1986

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Did they make any comment about the attitude of the staff at St Pancras, especially the one who seemed more concerned about a mobile phone call?

I sent a complaint to FCC about that and just got the standard "will investigate it with the member of staff but cannot comment further." etc.

Incidently this might be something for another thread but yesterday I travelled upto Sheffield from Portslade. After this experience I bought an extension at Hove in the morning when changing trains, the ticket was a "Norwood Junction to London St Pancras" and not a "London Stations" ticket.

It was a "Not Valid on Underground" ticket as it was for FCC services between East Croydon and St Pancras. Obviously there is no cross-London FCC services on weekends so the lady at the ticket office was very helpful and said that it will be valid on the Northern Line between London Bridge and St Pancras. When I got to London Bridge, I don't need to tell you what the ticket machine did to the ticket. Yep, it swallowed it! You're damned if you do and damned if you don't!
 

swt_passenger

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Incidently this might be something for another thread but yesterday I travelled upto Sheffield from Portslade. After this experience I bought an extension at Hove in the morning when changing trains, the ticket was a "Norwood Junction to London St Pancras" and not a "London Stations" ticket.

So once again you admit to not bothering with a ticket between East Croydon and Norwood Jn. Another accidental oversight?
 

djh1986

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So once again you admit to not bothering with a ticket between East Croydon and Norwood Jn. Another accidental oversight?

Perhaps actually read my post in future?

"After this experience I bought an extension at Hove in the morning when changing trains, the ticket was a "Norwood Junction to London St Pancras" and not a "London Stations" ticket."

I bought the ticket 7 hours before the journey. I'm covered up to Norwood Junction on my Gold Card and I bought a ticket from Norwood Junction to St Pancras.
 

MikeWh

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So once again you admit to not bothering with a ticket between East Croydon and Norwood Jn. Another accidental oversight?

Come on swt_passenger. You made this comment on page 1 and the OP explained what happens straight away. His season ticket is from the south coast to Norwood Junction. FCC trains don't call at Norwood Junction, hence when using them the season ticket ceases to be valid after East Croydon. As it is a season ticket though, the train doesn't have to call at the boundary station, so he only needs to pay from Norwood Junction.

Onto the question about the destination. London terminals from South London are just those stations south of City Thameslink. Using the FCC route is treated as a special case hence the ticket is not normally allowed on the Underground, otherwise it would have been a more expensive destination of U1. However, the fact it was swallowed at London Bridge suggests that either the encoding on the magstripe was wrong or the gates are not programmed properly. If you feel in the mood for another letter I'd drop Southern a line and ask them to comment.
 

djh1986

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Onto the question about the destination. London terminals from South London are just those stations south of City Thameslink. Using the FCC route is treated as a special case hence the ticket is not normally allowed on the Underground, otherwise it would have been a more expensive destination of U1. However, the fact it was swallowed at London Bridge suggests that either the encoding on the magstripe was wrong or the gates are not programmed properly. If you feel in the mood for another letter I'd drop Southern a line and ask them to comment.

Indeed, strange that it swallowed it given it was made out to St Pancras and not generic London Terminals. I was going to try and raise the issue with the gate staff but I only had 40 minutes to get to St Pancras so just decided to use my oyster on the Northern line.

May write another letter once my hand recovers from the last batch!!
 

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Two things come to mind.
Firstly, there's no indication at St. Pancras that the window you mention is for Excess Fares.
Secondly, it is common for RP staff to be sent (and also to request) details of known issues such as excessive queues, broken machines and unmanned barriers by mobile. Is it possible that this is what the member of staff was doing?
 

b0b

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However, the fact it was swallowed at London Bridge suggests that either the encoding on the magstripe was wrong or the gates are not programmed properly. If you feel in the mood for another letter I'd drop Southern a line and ask them to comment.


The ticket was specifically to St Pancras, so allowing travel past Farringdon on the Thameslink route and presumably costs more than the London Terminal ticket valid to London Bridge.

The gateline should not be swallowing this ticket!

Either, the ticket has BOJ privileges and it should return the ticket so the journey can be recommenced or it should throw up a "seek assistance" if you may not stop short/no BOJ.
 

MikeWh

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The gateline should not be swallowing this ticket!

Either, the ticket has BOJ privileges and it should return the ticket so the journey can be recommenced or it should throw up a "seek assistance" if you may not stop short/no BOJ.

Indeed. But even if there are no BOJ privileges, the fact that the central core route is closed almost every weekend means that the gate ought to be able to cope. It's not just a single weekend engineering closure.
 

b0b

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Onto the question about the destination. London terminals from South London are just those stations south of City Thameslink.

To clarify, City Thameslink is valid on a London Terminal ticket from the south.

The general rule is that a London Terminals ticket ceases to be valid at or passing through Farringdon from either direction.
 

swt_passenger

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Perhaps actually read my post in future?

"After this experience I bought an extension at Hove in the morning when changing trains, the ticket was a "Norwood Junction to London St Pancras" and not a "London Stations" ticket."

I bought the ticket 7 hours before the journey. I'm covered up to Norwood Junction on my Gold Card and I bought a ticket from Norwood Junction to St Pancras.

My apologies then - I was misled by post #4, which suggested a season only to East Croydon, but realise that isn't your post.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Onto the question about the destination. London terminals from South London are just those stations south of City Thameslink. Using the FCC route is treated as a special case hence the ticket is not normally allowed on the Underground, otherwise it would have been a more expensive destination of U1. However, the fact it was swallowed at London Bridge suggests that either the encoding on the magstripe was wrong or the gates are not programmed properly. If you feel in the mood for another letter I'd drop Southern a line and ask them to comment.

Isn't the coding of 'London Terminals' on the magstripe tickets the same for every London Terminal, so the only barrier programming options are probably to retain all or pass all? I believe Waterloo is set to pass all for interchange to Waterloo East for instance, but that opens a debate because not all origins necessarily allow onward travel to Charing Cross, London Bridge etc (according to mapped routes at least).

Despite the likely possibility that the barriers cannot differentiate St Pancras as a special case, Haven't previous discussions shown that programming BOJ is pretty randomly applied anyway, as every applicable origin destination pair has to be individually added?
 
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