Excess from Railcard Discounted Ticket to full fare

[Bill Badger]

Are you able to excess a railcard discounted ticket to full fare?

I purchased and collected a Surbiton to Southampton Off Peak Peak Return online (from First TPE) for £20.60 with a Network Card discount, but foolishly left my railcard at home when setting off on my journey

I realised by the time I got to the station, but didn't have time to go home to get the railcard, so went to the ticket office at Surbiton and asked if they could excess my ticket to the full non-railcard discounted fare. The clerk said he was unable to do this and could only sell me a new full fare ticket and I should then claim back the original ticket back from First TPE. What he actually then sold me was a SWT £15 promotional fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe this is correct. Probably to prevent people buying Railcard discounted tickets then asking for them to be excessed if caught.

 

[LexyBoy]

It is possible and some ticket offices will do so (I cannot see a problem with it if done before travel commences) - however I think Neil is correct in that it is not officially allowed.

Fortunately in this case you have done better than you would have with an excess - after a refund on the original you've paid £6.20 rather than £10.60 as the excess would have been.

Still, it would have been cheaper yet to have bought your tickets from the ticket office on the day of departure rather than online in advance... <simple.jpg>

 

[Harpers Tate]

It seems to my uneducated mind wholly irrational that someone in this situation (forgot necessary railcard) who presents themselves at a ticket office before travel, is not permitted to "upgrade" to the equivalent full fare on payment of the difference in this way. I doubt there is anything technical, financial nor practical in the way of this.

Here is a rather equivalent question:
If I travel outward from an unequipped halt on an off-peak morning service and buy an off-peak return on board, and if my operator has an evening peak period, and if the staffed station at the other end is not run by my operator, can I upgrade my Off-Peak return there to an Anytime ticket in order to return in the peak, on payment of the difference?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Strictly speaking, the Clerk was correct to refuse the Excess. The Ticketing and Settlement Agreement explicitly defines when Excesses can be issued as follows:

• An Operator may Sell any Excess Fare that gives the Purchaser of it the rights described in paragraph (b) below and those rights are the same as the rights that arise under a Permanent Fare or a Temporary Fare which that Operator is entitled to Sell. However, before it does so it must take reasonable steps to ensure that the Purchaser already holds a valid Fare for the same Flow or (in the case of an Excess Fare which falls within paragraph (b)(v) below) part of that Flow.
• An Excess Fare may only be Sold if it entitles the Purchaser of it to:-
  • travel via a different route than the one he would otherwise be entitled to use;
  • travel at a different time or on a different day than he would otherwise be entitled to travel;
  • terminate or break and resume his journey at a Station at which he would not otherwise be entitled to do this;
  • use a better class of accommodation;
  • travel beyond the Station to which the Fare he holds entitles him to travel, but only where he was unable to buy a Fare that entitles him to make such a journey at the Station where and at the time when he started his journey; or
  • start his journey at a Station that is on the Permitted Route for the Flow that he is entitled to use, where he would not otherwise be entitled to do this.

Having said that, most clerks (at least in my experience) will issue such an Excess, at least for walk up tickets, so as to avoid the wait for a refund of the original ticket to be processed.

 

[Haywain]

The problem with this sort of excess is it potentially allows the transfer of a ticket from one railcard holding person to another non-railcard holding person. As tickets are non-tranferrable, there is some logic in this. Saying that, I think it is generrally good service to do this sort of excess whre possible.

 

[bb21]

AIUI not all TIS allow this excess. Some have to be done as manual excesses and not all TOCs allow manual excesses.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The problem with this sort of excess is it potentially allows the transfer of a ticket from one railcard holding person to another non-railcard holding person. As tickets are non-tranferrable, there is some logic in this. Saying that, I think it is generrally good service to do this sort of excess whre possible.

It's somewhat weak logic, though. The same suggestion has been made here as regards why (for example) a wrongly issued 16-24 ticket is not valid with a SNR railcard even though the fares are identical.

It's weak logic because it occurs only where railcards are involved. All non-discounted fares (and I'm guessing this is a majority) are similarly non-transferable, yet for all practical purposes they can be passed between individuals at will with no means of detection whatsoever.

 

[maniacmartin]

It's somewhat weak logic, though. The same suggestion has been made here as regards why (for example) a wrongly issued 16-24 ticket is not valid with a SNR railcard even though the fares are identical.

Different railcards can have different time restrictions though.

In my experience, Great Western will generally do this sort of excess. Other TOCs, not so much

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Here is a rather equivalent question:
If I travel outward from an unequipped halt on an off-peak morning service and buy an off-peak return on board, and if my operator has an evening peak period, and if the staffed station at the other end is not run by my operator, can I upgrade my Off-Peak return there to an Anytime ticket in order to return in the peak, on payment of the difference?

The problem with your 'equivalent question' is that this excess for a time restricted ticket is documented in the TSA, in the retailing manuals, and, most importantly, in the NRCoC. This is not the case for a railcard holder not holding a railcard, atleast not on an industry-wide basis.

It's somewhat weak logic, though. The same suggestion has been made here as regards why (for example) a wrongly issued 16-24 ticket is not valid with a SNR railcard even though the fares are identical.

It's weak logic because it occurs only where railcards are involved. All non-discounted fares (and I'm guessing this is a majority) are similarly non-transferable, yet for all practical purposes they can be passed between individuals at will with no means of detection whatsoever.

Assuming that this is part of the reason, and that really is an assumption, there are some forms of transferring the railway may not be able to do anything about, but why should that be an excuse to not do anything about those they can prevent?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's somewhat weak logic, though. The same suggestion has been made here as regards why (for example) a wrongly issued 16-24 ticket is not valid with a SNR railcard even though the fares are identical.

To me a sensible simplification would be to harmonise all Railcard discounts and minimum fares (other than the child ones on Family and Network Railcard, but including GroupSave, which I still think needs rolling out nationally *and* to offer a child discount) and simply have a single "34% discount" button in the manner that the Swiss have the 50% option. There is to me no need to differentiate.

 

[Merseysider]

To me a sensible simplification would be to harmonise all Railcard discounts and minimum fares (other than the child ones on Family and Network Railcard, but including GroupSave, which I still think needs rolling out nationally *and* to offer a child discount) and simply have a single "34% discount" button in the manner that the Swiss have the 50% option. There is to me no need to differentiate.

I'd back that up. The problem then is how you keep the tocs (and by extension, govt) happy, as the millions of middle aged commuters originally paying £50 a journey would only be paying £33. Tocs like VT and XC are particularly likely to oppose and resist harmonisation of railcards.

But at the very least, an amendment to the NRCoC explicitly allowing such an excess before travel would be a positive step forward.

 

[father_jack]

AIUI not all TIS allow this excess. Some have to be done as manual excesses and not all TOCs allow manual excesses.

Fujitsu STAR has a "use existing railcard" tick box in the normal excess process.

If someone gets nabbed at the barriers by an RPI there's no excess (and an MG11)- if they are straight up to the desk saying they forgot the railcard they get an excess or even a new railcard.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If someone gets nabbed at the barriers by an RPI there's no excess (and an MG11)- if they are straight up to the desk saying they forgot the railcard they get an excess or even a new railcard.

Okay, so what happens if they start their journey at an unmanned station? And would there be a difference if the railcard was present, but had expired?

 

[father_jack]

Okay, so what happens if they start their journey at an unmanned station? And would there be a difference if the railcard was present, but had expired?

"Attitude test" pass or fail, "customer service" and the experience of 12 years selling tickets then enter the calculation !!!

 

[Harpers Tate]

Different railcards can have different time restrictions though.

Doesn't matter. Ticket only valid if the accompanying Railcard is valid (at the time) would be a simple way of handling this

To me a sensible simplification would be to harmonise all Railcard discounts and minimum fares....and simply have a single "34% discount" button in the manner that the Swiss have the 50% option. There is to me no need to differentiate.

I agree. The only wrinkle here is the minimum fare for some, which adds complexity. Otherwise all 34% discount tickets could be identical and co-dependent on the conditions applicable to the accompanying Railcard.