Excess Pads (RSP4407)

[First class]

If I get a Merseyrail RPI to write me out a ticket on an excess pad for the following journey- am I likely to be questioned with it? I'll explain better after I've written the journey:

Click for picture: http://stethomson.com/images/EXCESS TICKET EXA.jpg
(this is obviously an example)

1) Will LU recognise this ticket for travel through London or are they going to be awkward?
2) If you were a guard, would you be suspicious that a PRIV holder had a paper ticket when normal tickets were available? E.g. thinking the excess book was being 'misused' by staff?

 

[glynn80]

If I get a Merseyrail RPI to write me out a ticket on an excess pad for the following journey- am I likely to be questioned with it? I'll explain better after I've written the journey:

1) Will LU recognise this ticket for travel through London or are they going to be awkward?
2) If you were a guard, would you be suspicious that a PRIV holder had a paper ticket when normal tickets were available? E.g. thinking the excess book was being 'misused' by staff?

Would it not just be better to purchase a ticket from the ticket office?

 

[First class]

Well yeah, it would be easier, but I want to see how familiar staff are with things a bit unusual.

Our booking offices also issue these tickets in event of a STAR failure so every TOC / checking staff should be familiar with them.

I just wonder whether that is the case.

 

[Tom C]

If I get a Merseyrail RPI to write me out a ticket on an excess pad for the following journey- am I likely to be questioned with it? I'll explain better after I've written the journey:

Click for picture: http://stethomson.com/images/EXCESS TICKET EXA.jpg
(this is obviously an example)

1) Will LU recognise this ticket for travel through London or are they going to be awkward?
2) If you were a guard, would you be suspicious that a PRIV holder had a paper ticket when normal tickets were available? E.g. thinking the excess book was being 'misused' by staff?

4407 excess pads are quite rare these days and are far from a common sight around this neck of the woods. Doesn't Merseyrail on train staff use Advanix Mobile machines to issue tickets?.

I would have thought that the more experienced staff would have no problem with 4407's but newer members of staff may not have seen these before. East Coast guards used to use them and may well still do but I can't say I have seen a 4407 ticket for a good year or so.

We havn't used 4407's for a good 7/8 years now.

 

[1D53]

Merseyrail still don't have Avantix as far as I know but NXEC now do.

 

[First class]

Erm as far as I know, Merseyrail only have 4407s.

They are EXTREMELY common around Merseyside, parts of Cheshire. The Merseyrail RPIs issue all travel tickets from these stations on them. (Bache, Capenhurst, Overpool, Little Sutton and Ellesmere Port).

We have around 100 RPIs, and each one will usually complete an entire excess pad in a week. (so at least 5000 of these knocking about).

There's no point Merseyrail having those Avantix Machines. All stations now have full ticketing systems- (even unstaffed). Merseyrail feels that being able to purchase a ticket onboard would undermine the Penalty Fare scheme.

Does anybody know whether a Rail Rover can be issued on a RSP4407? An ALR PRIV on a RSP4407- I'd love to see how that went!!

Also, I've had 4 in the last month from the Cal Sleeper for a Supplement. One was a BR one!!

 

[glynn80]

Also, I've had 4 in the last month from the Cal Sleeper for a Supplement. One was a BR one!!

Yes, sleeper staff are not issued with Avantix machines apart from the guards of the Fort William portion north of Edinburgh.

I have similarly been issued with a Sleeper Supplement on a BR Pad around 2 years ago, I suppose there's no need to waste them!

 

[nedchester]

Erm as far as I know, Merseyrail only have 4407s.

They are EXTREMELY common around Merseyside, parts of Cheshire. The Merseyrail RPIs issue all travel tickets from these stations on them. (Bache, Capenhurst, Overpool, Little Sutton and Ellesmere Port).

We have around 100 RPIs, and each one will usually complete an entire excess pad in a week. (so at least 5000 of these knocking about).

There's no point Merseyrail having those Avantix Machines. All stations now have full ticketing systems- (even unstaffed). Merseyrail feels that being able to purchase a ticket onboard would undermine the Penalty Fare scheme.

Does anybody know whether a Rail Rover can be issued on a RSP4407? An ALR PRIV on a RSP4407- I'd love to see how that went!!

Also, I've had 4 in the last month from the Cal Sleeper for a Supplement. One was a BR one!!

The 'Excess' fare tickets on MerseyRail are not quite the same as the one featured. They just have a list of local stations (unmanned like Bache, Capenhurst, Little Sutton) and possible MerseyRail destinations and prices. The guard just circles the starting/finishing station and charges the fare.

However, ticket machines have appeared at all the unmanned stations and penalty fares start on June 15th. Not sure how susceptible these machines are to vandalism though with them being on an unmanned station.............

Good thing is that from tomorrow you can apparently buy tickets to anywhere in the country from these machines which is better than just 'local' tickets up to now.

 

[First class]

No, you're referring to Guards Tickets. Now no longer available as they sort of undermine the buy before you board and no ticket, no ride policies.

The Ticket Inspectors issue 4407s. They also do PFs and PACE.

They used to do the Dash for Cash from 7am-10am at Stations South of Hooton where they would sell travel tickets anywhere they could find a fare for. Now the machines are there, no point.

 

[Tom C]

There's no point Merseyrail having those Avantix Machines. All stations now have full ticketing systems- (even unstaffed). Merseyrail feels that being able to purchase a ticket onboard would undermine the Penalty Fare scheme.

All our stations are in the PF area as well however we still use Advantix when machines fail or to cover booking offices. Writing all tickets on a 4407 is too much like hard work

Now the machines are there, no point.

Famous last words!!!!!

They WILL fail, trust me

 

[Mojo]

What make are they, and do they have rain covers? As FGW learnt, to many passengers' amusement that their S&B machines don't work when it's raining. That's of course when they weren't working for a random reason.

 

[First class]

They are extremely customised. As in, they're about 8ft- give permit to travels (for warrants or if not accepting cards etc), issue rail tickets to anywhere in UK, accepts travel tokens, coins, cards & notes... the tickets that print out are like the ones out of the SB machines, but they have a more papery feel, not quite like APTIS ones, but getting close.

They also display train running information etc...

 

[Tom C]

give permit to travels

A TVM which isues PERTIS tickets???

That is actually a very good idea but I can see people selecting this option more often than they purchase a ticket once they know the facility is on the system. Do they have to put a certain amount into the machine for it to issue you with a PERTIS?

issue rail tickets to anywhere in UK, accepts travel tokens, coins, cards & notes...

Most TVM's do that these days. Do MPTE still use Travel Tokens? Who do they issue them to?

the tickets that print out are like the ones out of the SB machines, but they have a more papery feel, not quite like APTIS ones, but getting close.

Do you mean like Quickfare? They are simular to the S&B machines which are on a long roll like Quickfare. APTIS tickets were singular which is simular to the SHERE version of the TVM's where you have to fill up a hopper with individual tickets.

 

[glynn80]

They're outside appearance and interface look identical to S&B machines.

 

[dan_atki]

A TVM which isues PERTIS tickets???

That is actually a very good idea but I can see people selecting this option more often than they purchase a ticket once they know the facility is on the system. Do they have to put a certain amount into the machine for it to issue you with a PERTIS?

Certainly agree with that being a good idea - one I've wished would occur many times.

If the machine doesn't offer the ticket you want, and the installation of the machine has resulted in the Permit to Travel machine being removed, then it shows intent to pay, rather than seeking the guard before boarding etc etc!

 

[Tom C]

They're outside appearance and interface look identical to S&B machines.

That is a S&B machine.

If they are anything like ours they will be anything but reliable!

 

[glynn80]

That is a S&B machine.

If they are anything like ours they will be anything but reliable!

So perhaps on the South Eastern, London Midland machines etc. the feature to issue PTTs has been disabled?

 

[Tom C]

So perhaps on the South Eastern, London Midland machines etc. the feature to issue PTTs has been disabled?

To be honest Glynn I am struggling to work out how the machine would issue PERTIS tickets.

The option to pay by Warrant or Cheque is not on the system so how you would get to the option to issue a PERTIS is confusing. Also tickets with railcards such as PRIV & Forces are also not an option on the system so how would you tell it to issue a PERTIS. I am fairly certain that there isn't a big PERMIT TO TRAVEL button on the screen.

The only option I can think of is the change situation. You ask for a £1.70 ticket, put in £10 and it gives you a card to go back to the booking office and get change. This isn't a PERTIS, this is a con and FCC have turned this option very, VERY off.

 

[First class]

That picture is NOTHING like the new TVMs at the unstaffed stations. Absolutely nothing like it!! I will get a picture, but its about 1/3 of the width that one is.

There is no button on the screen for permit. You have to press another button on a different part of the machine, a small silver metallic button which issues a permit.

This is a very rough drawing on Paint. Remember it is a very tall, and skinny machine.

http://stethomson.com/images/sample merseyrail machine.jpg

 

[nedchester]

That picture is NOTHING like the new TVMs at the unstaffed stations. Absolutely nothing like it!! I will get a picture, but its about 1/3 of the width that one is.

There is no button on the screen for permit. You have to press another button on a different part of the machine, a small silver metallic button which issues a permit.

This is a very rough drawing on Paint. Remember it is a very tall, and skinny machine.

http://stethomson.com/images/sample merseyrail machine.jpg

If I get the chance tomorrow I'll take a photo with my mobile tomorrow on my way to work.

However, at the unstaffed stations there are TWO machines. One when gives running info and Permit to travel and also another machine (on the other platform) which sells the full range of tickets (accepting cards/cash etc)

 

[metrocammel]

Hmm, sounds interesting. It appears to be a TVM I haven't come across before. Do we have any representatives from Merseyrail who happen to know who produces them?

I think it is a bit naive, however, to say there is no need for an on-train issuing system. At the end of the day, as people have said, TVMs are notorious for failing- in such cases it is often the passenger who has to justify the situation. Again, as it has been pointed out, they are inflexible when it comes to certain types of tickets. If I wanted to buy, say a Coast & Peaks, starting at Bache, I would buy a 'PERTIS' from the machine, and then what? Would the RPI attempt to find a fare for the ticket (I assume they must still carry a printed version of the NFM?) and then write it out by hand (which although may be a novelty, I think the novelty would soon wear off by the amount of questions such a ticket would create) or would they let you through the barriers, and pay at the staffed station ticket office? The farce in this scenario would be eliminated if the guards had Avantix machines. Even the 'basic' 1980s technology SPORTIS machines had the ability to issue rovers, so I think with the technology available, RPIs relying on XS fare pads in the 21st Century is a bit strange.

 

[glynn80]

Hmm, sounds interesting. It appears to be a TVM I haven't come across before. Do we have any representatives from Merseyrail who happen to know who produces them?

Doing some research has yielded hardly any information about this new ticketing system apart from some small newspaper reports. I'm sure stethompson will know though.

Again, as it has been pointed out, they are inflexible when it comes to certain types of tickets. If I wanted to buy, say a Coast & Peaks, starting at Bache, I would buy a 'PERTIS' from the machine, and then what? Would the RPI attempt to find a fare for the ticket (I assume they must still carry a printed version of the NFM?) and then write it out by hand (which although may be a novelty, I think the novelty would soon wear off by the amount of questions such a ticket would create) or would they let you through the barriers, and pay at the staffed station ticket office?

The NFM is not printed in any version at all anymore, it has been completely replaced by the FRPP (The Manual). I assume when RPIs now want specific ticketing information, they must now call their Retail Control Desks who will advise them accordingly. On Merseyrail however this wouldn't be much use in the tunneled section or their routes.

Merseyrail may however produce their own local fares manual (I believe a predecessor of Southern did something similar) which would have a limited number of fares within the local area.

"Rovers" in my opinion, could not be issued upon Excess Fare Pads especially those with boxes. The ALR or other fixed period tickets such as Day Rangers may possibly be able to be issued on them but other than that it would not be suitable.

The farce in this scenario would be eliminated if the guards had Avantix machines. Even the 'basic' 1980s technology SPORTIS machines had the ability to issue rovers, so I think with the technology available, RPIs relying on XS fare pads in the 21st Century is a bit strange.

Is this true? I believed the SPORTIS could only issue Day Rangers such as those below from my own collection.

Certainly those with boxes must have been refused although I agree it would be a weird novelty. If anyone did manage to get a Rover issued on SPORTIS stock, I wouldn't mind seeing a scan!

 

[metrocammel]

Is this true? I believed the SPORTIS could only issue Day Rangers such as those below from my own collection.

Certainly those with boxes must have been refused although I agree it would be a weird novelty. If anyone did manage to get a Rover issued on SPORTIS stock, I wouldn't mind seeing a scan!

I've never seen one in the flesh, however, a friend who used to be a conductor with Northern said it could be done, but, as you say only for non-flexi rovers. Needless to say, I never opted to buy a Coast & Peaks from him, as I wouldn't really want the hassle associated explaining to the various grippers what the ticket was!

On a similar note regarding flexi- rovers, I remember the strange situation at Man Vic once, when I bought a flexi Coast & Peaks, but they issued it on non-boxed RSP Rail Rover stock. I went on an ATW service, and the gripper actually drew 3 boxes on the rover, and filled it in. This is relevant in this instance, as if they issued a flexi-rover on an XS pad, I suppose they could always draw the boxes by hand. Again, as I say, it's a less than ideal situation though.

Also, regarding the Exeter St. Davids to Exeter St. Davids Day Ranger, it's a shame it's fading, as that's quite an unusual ticket!

 

[glynn80]

On a similar note regarding flexi- rovers, I remember the strange situation at Man Vic once, when I bought a flexi Coast & Peaks, but they issued it on non-boxed RSP Rail Rover stock. I went on an ATW service, and the gripper actually drew 3 boxes on the rover, and filled it in. This is relevant in this instance, as if they issued a flexi-rover on an XS pad, I suppose they could always draw the boxes by hand. Again, as I say, it's a less than ideal situation though.

Lol!! Really. Did you get any hassle later on in the week with your boxes drawn onto the ticket rather than being printed on?

Also, regarding the Exeter St. Davids to Exeter St. Davids Day Ranger, it's a shame it's fading, as that's quite an unusual ticket!

Yeh, some of my older Thermal Credit Card sized tickets are fading as well. I am unsure of how to store them really to keep them in optimum condition, as currently they are all in a large white cardboard box (the type new black ticketing stock is usually delivered to ticket offices in) just in my living room, perhaps they need to be in a cool dark area of the house?

 

[metrocammel]

Lol!! Really. Did you get any hassle later on in the week with your boxes drawn onto the ticket rather than being printed on?

I didn't actually! Afaik, he was the one and only person to even check the date boxes!

Yeh, some of my older Thermal Credit Card sized tickets are fading as well. I am unsure of how to store them really to keep them in optimum condition, as currently they are all in a large white cardboard box (the type new black ticketing stock is usually delivered to ticket offices in) just in my living room, perhaps they need to be in a cool dark area of the house?

I'm not sure tbh, It may be a question for someone like "Annie" on eBay, who seems to sell 1,000s of PORTIS platform tickets, some of which dating back to the 1990s. It seems to be rather hit & miss, some of my old SPORTIS tickets are still fine, while others have completely faded, despite being stored in the same box. Some of my more modern TRIBUTE tickets are also badly faded. There are some that are less than year old that are completely illegible.

 

[First class]

Right, i've just been to Bache & Capenhurst.

There is a SB Machine there, pretty armoured up.

There is also a separate permit to travel machine that will also display train running information.

The TVMs didn't have the full range of fares, but they did have more 'advanced' features than usual:

1) Buy ticket in advance
2) Able to buy Weekly PTE Ticket (Railpass)

I've got some pics so will upload asap.

Also, unusually, the PF posters say the penalty is at least £20. Everywhere else on the network just says £20.

 

[glynn80]

The TVMs didn't have the full range of fares, but they did have more 'advanced' features than usual:

1) Buy ticket in advance
2) Able to buy Weekly PTE Ticket (Railpass)

I've got some pics so will upload asap.

Most TVMs I use regularly have these features anyway.

You can usually, after 4pm, purchase tickets for the next day or at weekends, purchase tickets for the following Monday. And I have also often purchased a 7 day season from my local TVM to avoid the large ticket office queues on Monday mornings.

Also, unusually, the PF posters say the penalty is at least £20. Everywhere else on the network just says £20.

Its usually £20.00 or twice the full single fare to the next station, whichever is the greater. Obviously it is not very often that the fare to the next station is going to be greater than £10.00 in most penalty fare area (usually busy commuter networks) so perhaps this point isn't highlighted regularly.

 

[Mojo]

Most TVMs I use regularly have these features anyway.

You can usually, after 4pm, purchase tickets for the next day or at weekends, purchase tickets for the following Monday. And I have also often purchased a 7 day season from my local TVM to avoid the large ticket office queues on Monday mornings.

Yeah, I was going to say the same - out of the modern touchscreen types by FGW, Virgin & London Midland that I've seen I can't remember seeing a TWM that doesn't do those tickets.

 

[metrocammel]

Yeah, I was going to say the same - out of the modern touch screen types by FGW, Virgin & London Midland that I've seen I can't remember seeing a TWM that doesn't do those tickets.

Northern's S&B machine at Man Vic doesn't. However, saying that, the TVMs at Man Vic are pretty much backward step from the Ascom machines. Ascoms' could issue 7 day seasons and GM Rangers, The S & B machines can't. There is even a label on the S&B machine at Vic that claim ToD will be available from mid-2007- to at least last month, this service hasn't been available!

So, having not experienced Merseyrails' S&Bs, going by their parent company's bench mark, it's not hard to beat!

Also, to Ste, did you manage to find who the maker of the 'nouveaux PERTIS' machines were. The latest PERTISs I have ever come across were from the WMPTE's / MidLine PF scheme in the 90s, the latest dated PERTIS I've ever come across being stamped 1990, (a high capacity example) at Fenchurch St. I assume the new models produce thermal tickets, like modern car park machines?

 

[John @ home]

There is even a label on the S&B machine at Vic that claim ToD will be available from mid-2007- to at least last month, this service hasn't been available!

I complained to Northern in January 2009 that many of their machines didn't have ToD despite a sign saying it would be available from mid-2007. Their reply was:

Thank you for your e-mail about Ticket on Departure, which I received recently.

I have spoken to the project officer, who has advised me that he is hopeful that TOD tickets will be available from early summer 2009. A problem arose concerning what would happen if a transaction failed. So to prevent unnecessary customer frustration it was decided to delay the introduction of TOD until the system is robust.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to contact me.