Excess Question

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phil35

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Just wondered if you guys could clarify something for me relating to ticket excesses. On Friday, I bought an Anytime Return from Leeds to Barnsley, the outward portion of which is valid for five days. I then made the ouward journey from Leeds to Barnsley the same day.

The next day, we decided to take a day trip from Barnsley to Sheffield. I'm not really knowledgeable about excesses, but I thought I would be able to excess my Leeds - Barnsley Anytime Return to a Leeds - Sheffield Anytime Return (I still had both the outward and return portions of the ticket), as the outward portion would still be within the five day validity window. I could then use this new ticket to cover me down to Sheffield and back to Barnsley, before return to Leeds this morning.

However, upon attempting this at the ticket office, I was told that I couldn't do it because I has reached my destination station on the outward leg and the ticket was now used and invalid. He said, however, that I would have been able to buy this excess if I'd attempted to do so before reaching Barnsley (at Wakefield, for example). I settled for an off-peak day return from Barnsley to Sheffield.

The price difference really wasn't that much, and the staff member was friendly enough, so I'm not annoyed about this or anything. I just wanted to make sure that the staff member was correct, and then I can learn from this for future reference! Thanks.
 
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island

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I believe that's correct. Once a ticket portion is fully used it has no further validity.
 

wintonian

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Just wondered if you guys could clarify something for me relating to ticket excesses. On Friday, I bought an Anytime Return from Leeds to Barnsley, the outward portion of which is valid for five days. I then made the ouward journey from Leeds to Barnsley the same day.

The next day, we decided to take a day trip from Barnsley to Sheffield. I'm not really knowledgeable about excesses, but I thought I would be able to excess my Leeds - Barnsley Anytime Return to a Leeds - Sheffield Anytime Return (I still had both the outward and return portions of the ticket), as the outward portion would still be within the five day validity window. I could then use this new ticket to cover me down to Sheffield and back to Barnsley, before return to Leeds this morning.

However, upon attempting this at the ticket office, I was told that I couldn't do it because I has reached my destination station on the outward leg and the ticket was now used and invalid. He said, however, that I would have been able to buy this excess if I'd attempted to do so before reaching Barnsley (at Wakefield, for example). I settled for an off-peak day return from Barnsley to Sheffield.

The price difference really wasn't that much, and the staff member was friendly enough, so I'm not annoyed about this or anything. I just wanted to make sure that the staff member was correct, and then I can learn from this for future reference! Thanks.


Yes its annoying and I have a habit of forgetting this rule, but as someone could have just picked the ticket up off the floor and wants a cheap ride it does make sense.
 

phil35

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I thought as much, and your example of picking a ticket off of the floor makes it clearer why this has been implemented. I know for next time now. Thanks for your quick responses!
 

34D

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I believe that's correct. Once a ticket portion is fully used it has no further validity.

Not sure about correct or not, but I've previously had excesses done when the original ticket has arrived at its ending station, and I'm sure others have either.

If the _complete_ ticket was fully used, then that could well be a different thing.
 

wintonian

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Ah yes, as I was reminded at a SWT station again the other day (it allways seems to be SWT that mention this) "were not allowed to issue an [over distance] excess any more without seeing the return portion as well" and I was duly asked to produce the return portion.

Interestingly they said they had been told this by the IT dept and it was because their system couldn't handle doing it without for some reason.

So you can still excess a complete ticket if one portion is finished with but not If the complete ticket has reached its final destination.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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As with most things there is no definite answer to this conundrum as The Manual doesn't tell you what to do in this scenario. However, I believe the generally accepted practice is as stated above - once the relevant portion of the ticket has been used and / or the destination has been reached, that portion of the ticket has expired, and therefore no Excess Fare would be done on an expired ticket.

This is certainly the way I work to, and I am aware of others, and ticket offices which adopt the same policy.
 

General Zod

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I once bought a cheap day return to London from my home town in the Shires. On getting into London I realized that my itinerary had changed and I needed to do some travel on London Underground. I explained the situation to the barrier staff at the London terminus who suggested that I get the ticket changed to a Travelcard. This was duly done with no problems.
In this scenario you can see that I had indeed used the outward portion of my ticket but the ticket was, to all intents and purposes, "excessed" to a One Day Travelcard. Were the ticket staff correct in allowing for this "upgrade" ?
 

34D

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So you can still excess a complete ticket if one portion is finished with but not If the complete ticket has reached its final destination.

Seems logical, and in accordance with my experience a couple of weeks ago.

As with most things there is no definite answer to this conundrum as The Manual doesn't tell you what to do in this scenario. However, I believe the generally accepted practice is as stated above - once the relevant portion of the ticket has been used and / or the destination has been reached, that portion of the ticket has expired, and therefore no Excess Fare would be done on an expired ticket.

This is certainly the way I work to, and I am aware of others, and ticket offices which adopt the same policy.

Ah.

If rules are vague/unclear, is this a situation where the most favourable interpretation to the passenger comes into play?
 

hairyhandedfool

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Excess fares are supposed to be issued only before or during a journey, so on that basis, if you went to the ticket office immediately upon reaching the destination (as printed on your ticket) and requested an excess for immediate travel on to another place, if there were no previous occasion to change it, that would be okay imo. If you came back the next day to extend the journey, a new ticket would be required.
 

wintonian

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Excess fares are supposed to be issued only before or during a journey, so on that basis, if you went to the ticket office immediately upon reaching the destination (as printed on your ticket) and requested an excess for immediate travel on to another place, if there were no previous occasion to change it, that would be okay imo. If you came back the next day to extend the journey, a new ticket would be required.

What is a journey?

Are the out and return trips 2 journey or 1?

If they are 1 then surely by what you are saying I could go back the next day with the tickets and get an excess as I am only halfway through the journey assuming I am using an SVR or SOR?
 

hairyhandedfool

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In the case of over-distance excess fares, the excess should be done before travel commences (unless that is not possible), so it really doesn't matter. I suppose you could argue the point for other excess fares, though personally I don't think it really matters.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I have just had a quick look at The Manual and noticed a section I hadn't seen before which is as follows:

The Manual said:
The contract with the customer

National Rail Conditions of Carriage specifies conditions under which tickets are issued. Conditions form part of legally binding contracts between customers and Train Companies.

Contract terms include:

Originating and destination stations (or, in some cases, fares zone);
Permitted routes;
Class of accommodation;
Break of journey;
Day, time or specific train restrictions.

Evidence of this contract is provided by the issue of tickets.


Changing the contract by paying excess fares


Excess fares may be purchased by customers, already in possession of tickets, only in one of three circumstances:

Before the journey starts - at a station

To allow customers holding tickets to change the terms on which their tickets were issued, before travel.

During the journey - at a station or on a train

When customers have been unable to purchase tickets for their entire journey at the originating station.

Before or during a journey - at a station or on a train

When customers have previously purchased tickets which are inappropriate for their journeys, for one of the following reasons:

Customer wishes to travel, or is already travelling, on a train, at a time of the day or on a day of week with a restricted validity ticket ;

Customer wishes to travel, or is already travelling between stations shown on their ticket by a route where a higher fare applies ;

Customer has a ticket for travel in Standard accommodation but wishes to travel, or is already travelling, in First Class ;

Customer is over-riding ;

Customer is deviating from the permitted route for their journey ;

Customer wishes to break, or has broken their journey with a restricted validity ticket; or terminates short of destination, where a higher fare applies;

Customer using a TOC-specific ticket and travelling on another TOC’s service

Excess fares for holders of certain ticket types.

Special conditions may apply to certain ticket types e.g. Advance tickets and many promotional fares.
 

hairyhandedfool

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The excess fares section includes the rules for when a passenger is using a TOC specific ticket on another TOC, hence it is mentioned. Over-riding is mentioned for the same reason.
 

wintonian

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is one reason for issuing an excess; it seems that might apply.


I thought they weren't supposed to be excessed?

Customer has a ticket for travel in Standard accommodation but wishes to travel, or is already travelling, in First Class ;

and I thought these were supposed to be done before the journey.
 

Solent&Wessex

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is one reason for issuing an excess; it seems that might apply.


I thought they weren't supposed to be excessed?

The excess fares section includes the rules for when a passenger is using a TOC specific ticket on another TOC, hence it is mentioned. Over-riding is mentioned for the same reason.

and I thought these were supposed to be done before the journey.

The text I have copied has the links omitted (as they won't work). After each example it has a "click here" bit which directs you to the instructions for each particular scenario. The instructions do of course vary for a number of scenarios, including the ticket type, and whether there was the opportunity to buy before boarding for example. You can of course pay a First Class Upgrade on board - depending on your ticket type and whether there was an open ticket office or not. Likewise for Advance fares, which can actually be excessed on board in certain situations. It is impossible to give full details for every situation in the short summary page. What it does do, however, is list the reasons for which a ticket can be excessed, and the locations and point in the journey in which those Excesses should be done.

In short, the XS must be done before or during the journey, and not afterwards. Although as someone posted above, if you went to a ticket office immediately upon arrival at your destination and you hadn't had a chance to pay an XS earlier on due to no on train staff or no office where you started, for eg, then I think it is reasonable to do the XS then.

Back to the original question from the OP, could he get an XS fare on his ticket? No, as it was neither before nor during the journey.
 
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yorkie

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I can understand that if someone had only just arrived at their destination they could want to continue the journey, but once you exit the station you are going to be on iffy ground using the "I am continuing my journey" excuse, and I can understand why the TOCs are not keen on this, for the reason described early on in the thread. In the case of the OP, the passenger reached the destination the previous day, so the decision to not issue an excess to continue to Sheffield on that basis does seem reasonable.
 
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