excess to anytime question

[fireftrm]

I have excessed an East Coast 1st Advance London Kings Cross Sheffield (EC and connections) to a 1st X/S Anytime from London Terminals to Sheffield, route any permitted. Is this valid for EastMidlands trains from St. Pancras? East Coast told me that I still had to use an EC and connections service....

 

[district]

No. An excess extends the validity of the ticket. You may previously have held an EC & Connections Advance, which of course is only valid on the booked trains, but now you have an Anytime ticket, which has the same validity as if you had bought it outright.

 

[jb]

St Pancras to Sheffield is clearly a permitted route. End of story.

 

[district]

Who told you this? Where did you get the excess?

 

[fireftrm]

My view was the any permitted and anytime meant I could use any route, plus I asked for London Terminals, not Kings Cross. This ticket is £1 more than East Coast website showed for the anytime but named from Kings Cross.

The excess was done in Kings Cross travel centre and it was the sales person who told me I had to use East Coast still, I questioned this and he said, no it has to be as the original was EC and connections and it would have to say via Chesterfield to be valid from St. Pancras. My understanding is that via Chesterfield would be an EM only and EC connections is EC only, any permitted route is either?

 

[district]

You say it is ''named bfrom Kings Cross''. Just to be clear, is the ticket from London Terminals or Kings Cross? It is rare to have a ticket with a named London Terminal (although not unheard of).

If it actually is ''Kings Cross'' shows a walk to St. Pancras and then EMT when asking for Kings Cross to Sheffield.

 

[fireftrm]

There is a first anytime single London Kings Cross to Sheffield, or one London Terminals, showing on East Coast's website booking engine. The original being EC and connections is marked London KX and the excess London Terminals. So to be absolutley clear :
Original First Advance London KX to Sheffield route EC and connections
Excess First Anytime Single London Terminals to Sheffield route any permitted.

On the site there was a first anytime EC and connections London KX to Sheffield for £1 less

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A TOC specfic ticket cannot be excessed for use on another TOC, regardless of the reason for the excess. The person at Kings Cross was correct in telling you that you could not use EMT from St Pancras if your original ticket has a route of 'EC & Connections'.

 

[fireftrm]

Now confused as there are differing opinions here..........

 

[barrykas]

From the (internal) "Advanced Fares FAQ":

Q09 - Can someone buy an Advance ticket, then excess it to an “Any Permitted” ticket and use it on another operator’s train service?

A: No, they must stick with the operator shown on their original advance ticket (Condition 2c above).

For bonus points, there is no Condition 2c...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

See the Terms and Conditions....

Changing the time or date of travel...

...The Origin, Destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same. ...

 

[fireftrm]

thanks

 

[jb]

Aren't

"how should the ticket have been excessed"

and

"how can the ticket now be used"

two quite different questions?

 

[fireftrm]

So does any permitted on the new ticket mean any permitted, or east coadt and connections still?

 

[yorkie]

I could not recommend using this ticket out of St Pancras.

This is despite my interpretation of the terms of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement and the NRCoC, you now hold an Any Permitted ticket and, therefore, I believe you should, in theory, be able to use EMT.

However that is not the interpretation of the rail industry (See posts by HHF and barrykas).

Therefore, you should only take EMT if you are satisfied that the TSA (see below) and NRCoC allow you to use EMT, and you are happy for EMT to take you to Court as a 'test case'... obviously this is not something I would recommend.

“Excess Fare” means a variation in the Rights and Restrictions applicable to a Fare which has the impact of converting that Fare into another Fare”

 

[LexyBoy]

Ask for it to be excessed again from Any Permitted to Via Chesterfield *trollface*

However that is not the interpretation of the rail industry, due to hidden rules (not visible to the general public) in The Manual, as quoted by HHF and barrykas.

HHF quoted the public T&Cs. (Though going by the quoted text, the route on the excess should remain the same as the original ticket, rather than the passenger being expected to know that only certain parts of the "excess" coupon override the original ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Apologies - I have amended my post accordingly.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....(Though going by the quoted text, the route on the excess should remain the same as the original ticket, rather than the passenger being expected to know that only certain parts of the "excess" coupon override the original ticket.

I can't agree with that, the conditions are not an instruction to staff on how to issue the ticket, they are a condition of travel that the passenger should be aware of and are listed on the conditions cards and the NRES website (they should also be available at the time of sale). Remember that the excess is not valid without the original ticket.

 

[fireftrm]

Out of interest the PUBLIC T&Cs don't have anything about the original ticket and route, as per HHF's post. He was giving an internal document's detail, not in the public domina, surely? His quote suggests that an advance cannot be excesses to anytime and to route any permitted, yet my excess states route - any permitted. I would not have thought anything about it being invalid on EMT had the clerk not said so, and I would have had the excess in the post had I had sufficient time as this is my normal collection method. How would I know if there is nothing in the National CoC?

 

[jb]

I can't agree with that, the conditions are not an instruction to staff on how to issue the ticket, they are a condition of travel that the passenger should be aware of and are listed on the conditions cards and the NRES website. Remember that the excess is not valid without the original ticket.

Taking the quoted text at face value, they refer to "changing the time or date of travel" on an Advance, which is not what is happening here.

 

[fireftrm]

Please tell me where these public conditions are, as I cannot find any reference to them anywhere. Not arguing that they don't exist, but conditions cards? What are they? I can only find the national conditions of carriage, where i can find no description of advance ticket and an excess as described by you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry found this on the National Rail website, I had to use a search engine to work out what news meant, please note we aren't always up to date on on internal acronyms!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does this then mean that an excess, not a change to date and time, should be valid as shown on the new ticket, or that it should not have been issued as any permitted route

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Out of interest the PUBLIC T&Cs don't have anything about the original ticket and route, as per HHF's post. He was giving an internal document's detail, not in the public domina, surely? His quote suggests that an advance cannot be excesses to anytime and to route any permitted, yet my excess states route - any permitted. I would not have thought anything about it being invalid on EMT had the clerk not said so, and I would have had the excess in the post had I had sufficient time as this is my normal collection method. How would I know if there is nothing in the National CoC?

The route on the ticket is set in the fares data, it can't be changed by staff, the T&Cs on the National Rail Website show that the condition applies to advance fares and it IS in the public domain.

You should have had, at the time of sale (of the Advance ticket) access to the terms of the ticket, on websites this is sometimes in the form of a link with a tick box next to it. If you bought at a station you should get a conditions card at the time of sale (this has all the same conditions printed on it).

Taking the quoted text at face value, they refer to "changing the time or date of travel" on an Advance, which is not what is happening here.

Leaving aside the issue of the origin being Kings Cross/St Pancras/London Terminals for a moment, for your argument to have a chance of validity, the train from St Pancras would have to leave at the same time as the booked train from Kings Cross and I think that is unlikely.

 

[fireftrm]

Sorry for being pedantic, but to comply with these conditions, should the excess not still be EC and connections, whereas it states any permitted?

 

[jb]

Leaving aside the issue of the origin being Kings Cross/St Pancras/London Terminals for a moment, for your argument to have a chance of validity, the train from St Pancras would have to leave at the same time as the booked train from Kings Cross and I think that is unlikely.

I've no idea what this has to do with anything. It's not that "time and date of travel haven't changed", blindingly obviously, rather it's that "Changing the time and date of travel of an Advance" and "excessing an Advance to a totally different ticket type" are two completely different things. Surely?

 

[fireftrm]

I have checked again with east coast's website and the excess to an anytime first is £45.15, limited trains including a selection from St Pancras, then to add every train from both terminals is £46.15. I paid the higher price, so is their website lying?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've no idea what this has to do with anything. It's not that "time and date of travel haven't changed", blindingly obviously, rather it's that "Changing the time and date of travel of an Advance" and "excessing an Advance to a totally different ticket type" are two completely different things. Surely?

Not necessarily, certainly I don't think the rules are intended or written that way. Excess fares should not be given, on TOC specific fares, for use on another TOC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have checked again with east coast's website and the excess to an anytime first is £45.15, limited trains including a selection from St Pancras, then to add every train from both terminals is £46.15. I paid the higher price, so is their website lying?

Without witnessing it I couldn't say.

 

[jb]

Not necessarily, certainly I don't think the rules are intended or written that way. Excess fares should not be given, on TOC specific fares, for use on another TOC.

OK, so we are in agreement that the excess was issued incorrectly.

Now, can we also agree that as an Any Permitted ticket-holder the OP can now freely go out of St Pancras?

(I am aware that different questions are now being a bit conflated with what the OP is now reporting re: possible online availability of excesses that seem to contradict the conditions, but let's deal with his actual reported situation first)

 

[fireftrm]

see the attached - a screenshot of the east coast booking page

 

[hairyhandedfool]

OK, so we are in agreement that the excess was issued incorrectly....

On the basis of what I have seen in this thread, no, it was not issued incorrectly.

There are four reason for excess, Std to 1st (obviously not the case here), Over-Distance (again obviously not the case here), Date/Time (change of travel plans) and Off-Route (not allowed by excess fares rules in this case).

My opinion of what is in the thread, is that date/time was the reason for excess, given the clerk stating it was not valid on EMT.

....Now, can we also agree that as an Any Permitted ticket-holder the OP can now freely go out of St Pancras?....

In this case, no, as the Excess fare is not valid without the Advance and the Advance is not valid out of St Pancras.

 

[fireftrm]

Clerk statement was AFTER I had paid too. Have you looked at screen shot?