excess to anytime question

[hairyhandedfool]

see the attached - a screenshot of the east coast booking page

Based on that screen shot, I would say it was 'in error' showing that excess.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clerk statement was AFTER I had paid too.

And had you changed your mind at that point he could have cancelled the excess.

 

[fireftrm]

It may be in error, but you can buy the excess. So is it then invalid?

 

[jb]

So we're now wriggling about the semantics of "excess". Fair enough, it's a change of ticket rather than an excess.

Changing a ticket
Whether you can change your ticket depends on the type of ticket you have:
Advance: You can visit any booking office or call the telesales outlet that you bought your ticket from. If there are still other Advance fares available, you can change it to another Advance fare. You will be charged an admin fee of £10 per ticket.

If there are no Advance fares available, you can upgrade the ticket to the most appropriate ticket for the journey you now want to make...

My opinion of what is in the thread, is that date/time was the reason for excess, given the clerk stating it was not valid on EMT.

Moot. "Man in the ticket office said so" cuts both ways. If there's a restriction give the punter a ticket that shows it. If the ticket is now Any Permitted that's the end of it.

 

[island]

If there was an EC ONLY first class fare then that is what should have been offered; however, the new ticket retains the restriction of EC & CONNECTNS.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It may be in error, but you can buy the excess. So is it then invalid?

Based on what it shows and how I would expect it to be issued, yes, it is invalid (it wouldn't be the first time a website has been 'in error').

....Moot. "Man in the ticket office said so" cuts both ways. If there's a restriction give the punter a ticket that shows it. If the ticket is now Any Permitted that's the end of it.

I presume you mean the adjective 'moot', as in 'a moot point', rather than the noun or transitive verb?

I was using his words (or rather the words the op used to describe what the 'man in the ticket office' said) as a supposition of the reason for the excess fare, not as an argument over it's validity.

The Advance does show it, the excess is only valid with the Advance.

 

[LexyBoy]

The Advance does show it, the excess is only valid with the Advance.

The Advance also states "Validity: Booked Train Only"

*gets coat*

 

[Haywain]

The fact that the clerk mentioned after you had paid that you could only use East Coast trains, suggests that you did not earlier volunteer any intention to use EMT from St Pancras, in which case you would have been advised of the need to buy a new ticket. Even after you paid, had you mentioned this, you would have been given a full and immediate refund of what you paid. Mentioning East Coast only would be designed to make clear that, in particular, you didn't go and jump on the first Grand Central or Hull Trains service to Doncaster.

As most TOC's can't set TOC specific walk-up fares for most journeys, the only alternative to having (for example) an Any Permitted fare that is more restricted than usual would be to lose the option of being able to change the ticket on the day of travel or when other Advance fares are unavailable. That's a fact of the system as it exists.

 

[fireftrm]

I specifically asked for London Terminals to Sheffield, as I had seen the different excess options on the website before going tot he Travel Centre. I would have purchased online and had the tickets mailed to me, but there was not time. I actually did not WANT to travel EastMidlands Trains, as the Meridian 1st class is one I particularly dislike, lovely seats, but little or no view out of the window due to the ridiculous 'curtain' blinds, that retract to the sides leaving no way to see out of the window unless you lean forward, or like only seeing out of half the window. Also no free food, which considering I was not going to be in Sheffield before 22:00 was important to me. When I asked to excess to an anytime first single I was first offered the £45.15 extra, I then said there is one for a £1 more that is London Terminals, rather than London KX. He checked and said yes and sold me it, then when handing over the tickets, as I turned to leave, said about having to still use EC. So he didn't bother to say you are wasting a £1 mate.

If I had bought form the EC website I could have reserved a seat on any of the EMT services, so someone is wrong here and I know who it isn't......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS enjoying a very quiet EC train to Donny (Leeds service) and my sausage and mash.
PPS 'I didn't volunteer...' why the hell should I? I was asking for a London Terminals to Sheffield Anytime single ticket. What possible reason is there for the customer (note that is what I am, not a nuisance to the railway) having to give the supplier their personal movement details? I f I go to buy a car I don't have to volunteer where I am going to be driving it. In my m ind asking for an Anytime First Single should mean that I will receive an Anytime First Single, if I also stipulate that I want it to be valid from any London Terminal then I rather expect to receive that. Especially when the retailer has already demonstrated in their, publicly accessible online sales brochure, that the ticket I want is available. I am goingt o be writing to East Coast about this disgraceful situation and will report their response.

 

[yorkie]

So we're now wriggling about the semantics of "excess"....

I would argue that the TSA definition is definitive

I doubt EMT would agree though - they don't like complying with it! (it is a franchise commitment to comply with it, but compliance is seemingly not enforced by the toothless and incompetent* DfT)

...If I had bought form the EC website I could have reserved a seat on any of the EMT services, so someone is wrong here and I know who it isn't......

Clearly the EC website agrees with my interpretation, and is in line with the definition described in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement.

If you had bought it online and obtained an itinerary with EMT, then that itinerary would be evidence of a contract, and you'd be in a strong position if they chose to claim that the ticket wasn't valid.

It would not be unlike EMT to impose their own rules and disregard the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement, hence why I couldn't recommend using EMT. There's no effective Regulator to force the TOCs to comply with it, and no efficient, knowledgeable passenger watchdog either! We're well and truly stuffed

(* Before I get any libel complaints about the term incompetent, JFGI, there's plenty of sources!)

 

[fireftrm]

Out of interest I came on here to ask advice, thanks to those who gave me that and were supportive, you can read who they are. A note of disgrace to those who chose to use their work roles and tell me that I should have known, 'its in the conditions', or that obviously I asked for something and therefore it was my fault. To the former, well done, to the latter, you are the reason the railway gets a bad name at times. I do hope I never have the misfortune to have to deal with you face to face.

 

[Goatboy]

the new ticket retains the restriction of EC & CONNECTNS.

Why does the new ticket say 'Any Permitted' if, in reality, it is not an Any Permitted ticket?

Genuine question, not a loaded one! Just seems odd to me that it says Route Any Permitted if its not infact valid by any permitted route.

 

[jb]

I presume you mean the adjective 'moot', as in 'a moot point', rather than the noun or transitive verb?

I was using his words (or rather the words the op used to describe what the 'man in the ticket office' said) as a supposition of the reason for the excess fare, not as an argument over it's validity.

Bored with the argument. Don't always write complete sentences on t'interweb. Interpet how you see fit. Presume you mean 'its'.

 

[furlong]

Genuine question, not a loaded one! Just seems odd to me that it says Route Any Permitted if its not in fact valid by any permitted route.

Indeed. How to share out the money from an original advance ticket and the extra paid to convert it to a different ticket is an internal matter for the railway.

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

Always remembering:

58. Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents
A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Out of interest I came on here to ask advice, thanks to those who gave me that and were supportive, you can read who they are....

You were given advice you liked and advice you didn't. You asked for clarification and proof for the advice you didn't like and you got it, you still didn't like it. You never once questioned the advice you liked. I can understand the not liking the advice you didn't like, but we can't like everything we are told and expect honesty and good advice all the time.

....A note of disgrace to those who chose to use their work roles and tell me that I should have known, 'its in the conditions', or that obviously I asked for something and therefore it was my fault....

The conditions are there for you to read, to decide if they are worth the reduction in fare you pay, so yes, I would expect you to read them, just as I would expect you to read the terms of your mortgage (if you have one) or any loan or credit cards you might have. How terribly old fashioned of me to think you might read that sort of thing, it's only in YOUR interest to do so.

....To the former, well done, to the latter, you are the reason the railway gets a bad name at times. I do hope I never have the misfortune to have to deal with you face to face.

Heaven forbid people should try to explain the rules to you, so you can try to understand them, and answer the questions you have about it. I won't bother next, complete waste of my time. Just make up a rule and try it out, you'll probably like it better.

 

[barrykas]

Why does the new ticket say 'Any Permitted' if, in reality, it is not an Any Permitted ticket?

Genuine question, not a loaded one! Just seems odd to me that it says Route Any Permitted if its not infact valid by any permitted route.

The simple answer is that there are no "East Coast Only" walk-up fares for London to Sheffield, so if you want to amend the ticket after the Advance tickets are gone and/or reservations are closed, the only possible excess is to an "Any Permitted" walk-up fare.

If the clerk was to issue it with the route overridden to "East Coast only", their TOC could find themselves on the receiving end of a Fares Mismatch as no such ticket exists. Having said that, I'm unsure how much checking (if any) occurs for Excesses.

Similarly, if the passenger undertook such an excess, and then wanted a refund, the only part that would be refundable is the Excess itself, not the original ticket or change fee...

 

[jb]

The simple answer ...

Unless my reading is somewhat off, what follows the above three words lacks two fairly fundamental characteristics: those of (a) being simple and (b) being an answer. :?

 

[fireftrm]

You were given advice you liked and advice you didn't. You asked for clarification and proof for the advice you didn't like and you got it, you still didn't like it. You never once questioned the advice you liked. I can understand the not liking the advice you didn't like, but we can't like everything we are told and expect honesty and good advice all the time.




The conditions are there for you to read, to decide if they are worth the reduction in fare you pay, so yes, I would expect you to read them, just as I would expect you to read the terms of your mortgage (if you have one) or any loan or credit cards you might have. How terribly old fashioned of me to think you might read that sort of thing, it's only in YOUR interest to do so.



Heaven forbid people should try to explain the rules to you, so you can try to understand them, and answer the questions you have about it. I won't bother next, complete waste of my time. Just make up a rule and try it out, you'll probably like it better.

There wasn't any advice I liked, or disliked, just advice given in a helpful way and some with a more unhelpful tone.

I did not know all the conditions, as I doubt many customers do. I would, of course, read the T&Cs fir a mortgage, or loan, but when buying a transport ticket I somehow don't get that same feeling of financial importance. I don't usually read the T&Cs when there is an offer at the supermarket either! I does seem as if you consider the customers to be of little value, how dare we buy a ticket, that the railway company have for sale, at less than the full rate and then have the nerve not to understand every nuance if the seller's rules?

As for being ungrateful for your in depth and helpful explanation of the vagaries of TIC rules and conditions, well I am really sorry. But then again I never read any such in your posts, instead I came away feeling demeaned.

 

[Goatboy]

The simple answer is that there are no "East Coast Only" walk-up fares for London to Sheffield, so if you want to amend the ticket after the Advance tickets are gone and/or reservations are closed, the only possible excess is to an "Any Permitted" walk-up fare.

If the clerk was to issue it with the route overridden to "East Coast only", their TOC could find themselves on the receiving end of a Fares Mismatch as no such ticket exists. Having said that, I'm unsure how much checking (if any) occurs for Excesses.

Similarly, if the passenger undertook such an excess, and then wanted a refund, the only part that would be refundable is the Excess itself, not the original ticket or change fee...

So if its a system/rules issue then surely any procedual ambiguity should be found in favour of the passenger. Issuing a ticket with Any Permitted clearly printed under Route must surely mean... route any permitted. Not 'Route Any Permitted unless there is something in the fares engine that means we cant make it say what we want so we make it say any permitted anyway'

 

[jb]

So if its a system/rules issue then surely any procedual ambiguity should be found in favour of the passenger. Issuing a ticket with Any Permitted clearly printed under Route must surely mean... route any permitted. Not 'Route Any Permitted unless there is something in the fares engine that means we cant make it say what we want so we make it say any permitted anyway'

Well quite. Boiled down to essentials this is (would be, in the hypothetical of such a ticket being refused by EMT) exactly the same as SE attempting to block Any Permitted ticket holders from taking HS1 along permitted routes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

IMO, that line of argument would lead to one outcome, and it would not favour the passenger in the long run.

 

[jb]

IMO, that line of argument would lead to one outcome, and it would not favour the passenger in the long run.

Care to elaborate?

If following that line means the "loophole" is closed and the TOC-specific restrictions are correctly and clearly identified on the new coupon, then that is better for the passenger than an "Any Permitted" ticket that isn't really Any Permitted.

If it means something else, pray tell.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It would be cheaper, easier and simpler to put a stop to TOC specific tickets being excessed/changed to anything other than a ticket with the same TOC specific routeing.

In other words, the Op wouldn't be able to get his 1st Anytime excess ticket because a rte 'EC & Connections' 1st Anytime ticket does not exist.

 

[fireftrm]

Explain, please, how that would improve the position for the customer? Noting that I am customer and only a passenger when actually on the transport. The only way to improve this is for accurate, transparent information, on the ticket. If the railway companies do not want to earn more money from their customers then cease upgrade/excess ticket sales and only do changes of date and, or time. If this were an ordinary customer relationship then the sales person would always be trying to up sell, here the opinion of some from the industry, is that it is the fault if the darned public fir wanting to buy our cheaper tickets. Rather than have a menu of chargeable upgrades we should make them thankful for their lot. No way to run a business. After all the simple principle is that I bought a ticket (already over £100) for a journey, from EC. I then wanted to pay some more so as to add flexibility, because my previously set timetable had become more open ended. EC's brochure offers me a selection if amendments AND upgrades. One of these is to the full fare anytime ticket, whose normal availability is to offer multiple routes. Why should I then be penalised so as go have the original advance rules applying? There were advance tickets still available for alternative trains, but I wanted and was sold the full priced ticket, at the very same price as if I had just walked off the street; with the exception that I returned the original ticket/reservation and accepted the admin fee for doing so. In any business model this seems perfectly reasonable, EC had had my money already, they gained another £46 of sale plus £10 for admin for accepting the effective refund on the previously bought goods.

If your un-customer focused approach was to be employed by other large retailers they would lose so much of their business they would fail. Instead I see ways of adding value and earning more from the customer, whilst also improving their experience, such as taking a note out if some airlines' books - offer a walk up add on if £10 to any advance ticket holder who wants to take an earlier train, subject to seat availability. Restrictions would have to apply to intermediate travellers, such as on cross country services, but at terminals where you know the largest number if passengers occur (London departures where intermediate stops equal overall passenger reductions) this could offer an easy and profitable upgrade and spread loads.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Explain, please, how that would improve the position for the customer?....

I'm sorry, I think you mis-read my post, please let me express it in a clearer, bolder way, so that you can embrace the reality of what was written with joy in your heart and happy, flowery thoughts in your mind.

IMO, that line of argument would lead to one outcome, and it would not favour the passenger in the long run.

I truly hope this has cleared the matter beyond doubt and if you have any further questions on this matter please feel free to keep them to yourself or file them in a very dark place, I hope you have a lovely day.

....If the railway companies do not want to earn more money from their customers then cease upgrade/excess ticket sales and only do changes of date and, or time....

Changing your 1st Advance into a 1st Anytime gives the railway how much money?

Charging for a new 1st Anytime on top of the 1st Advance you have costs how much money?

Which gives the railway more money?

.... Instead I see ways of adding value and earning more from the customer, whilst also improving their experience, such as taking a note out if some airlines' books - offer a walk up add on if £10 to any advance ticket holder who wants to take an earlier train, subject to seat availability. Restrictions would have to apply to intermediate travellers, such as on cross country services, but at terminals where you know the largest number if passengers occur (London departures where intermediate stops equal overall passenger reductions) this could offer an easy and profitable upgrade and spread loads.

Explain the maths, I'm curious, imagine I have a £40 Advance ticket and the Anytime ticket costs £130, If I showed up ten minutes before the previous train, how much do I pay to use that earlier train?

 

[bb21]

It would appear that the industry made a bit of a mess of this procedure, contradicting the terms set out in the NRCoC and the TSA. To an ordinary passenger, it is not unusual/unreasonable to expect that a ticket excessed to Route Any Permitted would be free from TOC restrictions.

Railway staff have provided us with the official answer in this case, which is that a TOC-specific Advance fare, if excessed to an Any Permitted fare, is still subject to the TOC restrictions of the original ticket, and this is the ruling that the TOCs will be applying, until it is challenged, presumably in a court of law or with pressure coming from external bodies.

The original query has been answered and the thread has run its course. If anyone wants to debate the rights and wrongs of these rules, please open a new thread.