Excess where no Any Permitted fare exists

[John @ home]

Following the Manchester Stations to Alloa thread, here is a question for kwvr45 or other staff who inspect tickets.

A passenger's ticket is checked between Manchester Piccadilly and Carlisle. It is the outward portion of an £83.80 SVR Manchester Stations - Alloa route York. The passenger is travelling on a permitted route. The passenger is travelling on the shortest route. The passenger is not travelling on a route passing through York. The inspector is able to confirm that the only walk-on fare sold is route York. What is the correct course of action?

I certainly don't know!

John

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Following the Manchester Stations to Alloa thread, here is a question for kwvr45 or other staff who inspect tickets.

A passenger's ticket is checked between Manchester Piccadilly and Carlisle. It is the outward portion of an £83.80 SVR Manchester Stations - Alloa route York. The passenger is travelling on a permitted route. The passenger is travelling on the shortest route. The passenger is not travelling on a route passing through York. The inspector is able to confirm that the only walk-on fare sold is route York. What is the correct course of action?

I certainly don't know!

John

Strange you mention this as I had a couple of similar cases of this earlier this year. In the case I had it was a passenger going from some station in the North West (can't just remember, but somewhere on the Hadfield line springs to mind) to Scotland via York. Yet the ticket they had was Rte Lancaster. Now they didn't want to go that way as it was quicker and easier to go via York due to engineering works, but there was no fare to excess to valid via York.

There was however a Manchester to Edinburgh fare valid via York, so after consultation with control, I excessed them between Manchester and Edinburgh only.

So, what I did was take the Manchester - Edinburgh fare Rte York, and calculate the XS from the Manchester - Edinburgh Rte Lancaster fare, with it all being based around the same ticket type as they had in the first place. The original ticket would still be perfectly valid for the parts of the journey either side of Manchester and Edinburgh, with the XS I did being what I thought to be the best solution to "make it legal" for the off-route bit inbetween. Whether this is correct, I don't know, but it seemed fairly fair to all concerned.

EDIT: Having now just read the Alloa thread it seems a bit more complicated - ie the passenger is travelling via a cheaper route. In which case I would still issue an XS ticket as per the details above, but it may mean there is no fare to pay and a zero fare XS is issued. This may seem a bit silly, but would avoid any confusion and still "make it legal"!

 

[John @ home]

Many thanks for the prompt and helpful reply.

I would still issue an XS ticket as per the details above, but it may mean there is no fare to pay and a zero fare XS is issued. This may seem a bit silly, but would avoid any confusion and still "make it legal"!

Good. I agree that a £0.00 excess fare from route York to route Any Permitted seems the best solution. The excess could be issued from Manchester to Stirling because tickets by the appropriate routes exist to make the fares comparison. And at present the only way from Stirling to Alloa by rail is by the direct non-stop train.

I will send ATOC an email later today reporting the lack of a Manchester Stations - Alloa fare by the shortest route and asking what a passenger should do.

John

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I will send ATOC an email later today reporting the lack of a Manchester Stations - Alloa fare by the shortest route and asking what a passenger should do.

Very interesting! As well as from Manchester, there looks to be a complete absence of walk-up return fares to Alloa (via Lancaster/Carlisle) from other West Coast main line stations. Having just checked online now, I couldn't find anything - other than Advance Purchase single tickets - as being available to/from Alloa from (for example) Crewe, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme or Penrith.

 

[John @ home]

As well as from Manchester, there looks to be a complete absence of walk-up return fares to Alloa (via Lancaster/Carlisle) from other West Coast main line stations.

Agreed. I am still working out the full extent of the omission, and I will include that in my e-mail to ATOC. I will post the text of that email, and any reply to it, in this thread.

John

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Many thanks for the prompt and helpful reply.Good. I agree that a £0.00 excess fare from route York to route Any Permitted seems the best solution. The excess could be issued from Manchester to Stirling because tickets by the appropriate routes exist to make the fares comparison. And at present the only way from Stirling to Alloa by rail is by the direct non-stop train.

I will send ATOC an email later today reporting the lack of a Manchester Stations - Alloa fare by the shortest route and asking what a passenger should do.

John

The flows to Scotland from North West stations are a bit odd. There are very few "Any Permitted" tickets, but they are routed one way or the other. This is a bit of nuisance when passengers want to go different ways due to the seemingly constant weekend shutdowns of the WCML North of Preston every winter.

For example, the only walk up fares from Manchester to Edinburgh are either Rte Carlisle or Rte York. Manchester to Stirling is either Rte Lancaster or Rte York.

And while you are at it, you can actually ask ATOC about the lack of a fare full stop. I have just searched the Fares Manual for Manchester Stns to Alloa and it says no fares found:
------------------------------------------
Fares Finder
Enter search criteria...
Search can be performed using either the station name, NLC or 3-Alpha (CRS) code

Origin: Choose Origin Station
Destination: Choose Destination Station

No Fares Found for Origin "MANCHESTER STNS" and Destination "ALLOA".
-------------------------------------------

There are also no fares for Leeds to Alloa!! Are you sure the station has opened???


And the fare I think I had in my original post was Hadfield to Edinburgh - Which despite Manchester - Edinburgh having either Rte Carlisle or Rte York, Hadfield - Edinburgh has only Rte Carlisle.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is the outward portion of an £83.80 SVR Manchester Stations - Alloa route York.

John

Where did you get this fare? I cannot find it anywhere. It is not in the fares manual, and the National Rail website just says "You will need to buy more than one ticket for this journey", and then tells you that ticket 1 of 2 will cost £67, but doesn't actually mention what this ticket is.

The NXEC website just doesn't give you any fares at all, except Advance tickets! Which is no good for tomorrow, as it says there are no fares available at all tomorrow!!

 

[yorkie]

Don't forget, Route Carlisle is valid via the Tyne Valley and York when the Tyne Valley diversions are on (But only on trains that run directly between Edinburgh and Newcastle, it isn't valid on Virgin+Northern changing at Carlisle).

 

[clagmonster]

The last time I emailed ATOC about a lack of fares between two stations, they directed me to the customer relations department of the TOC concerned (in this case TPE). TPE were most helpful, although this thread does remind me that I need to get onto them again because they only corrected half of the ommissions found.
The Manchester-Alloa ticket strangely exists in NFM03, I don't know about NFM04. There is only a route York ticket.

 

[John @ home]

There are also no fares for Leeds to Alloa!! Are you sure the station has opened?

Yes. It re-opened to regular passenger traffic on 19 May 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloa_railway_station

No Fares Found for Origin "MANCHESTER STNS" and Destination "ALLOA".
Where did you get this fare? I cannot find it anywhere.

From the National Fares Manual NFM 04 CD, published by ATOC, valid 6 September 2009 - 1 January 2010, which I purchased via TSO for £14.67. This shows, among other fares,

MANCHESTER STNS - ALLOA route YORK SVR £83.80 8X CC
ALLOA - MANCHESTER STNS route YORK SVR £83.80 8X CC

LEEDS - ALLOA route ANY PERMITTED SVR £81.30 8X CC
ALLOA - LEEDS route ANY PERMITTED SVR £81.30 8X CC

Checking previous issues of the NFM CD, these fares were also in NFM 02 and NFM 03. My NFM 01 CD doesn't want to work today.

The NXEC website just doesn't give you any fares at all, except Advance tickets!

NXEC returns No fares have been found for your selected service. for Manchester Piccadilly to Alloa but is happy to display a full range of walk-on and Advance fares if you enter Manchester Piccadilly to Alloa via York. A full range of walk-on and Advance Alloa - Leeds fares is available in both directions.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The last time I emailed ATOC about a lack of fares between two stations, they directed me to the customer relations department of the TOC concerned

I think part of the problem in the Manchester - Alloa case may be that the Company which sets the fare (CrossCountry) does not run any services over the route.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....A passenger's ticket is checked between Manchester Piccadilly and Carlisle. It is the outward portion of an £83.80 SVR Manchester Stations - Alloa route York. The passenger is travelling on a permitted route. The passenger is travelling on the shortest route. The passenger is not travelling on a route passing through York. The inspector is able to confirm that the only walk-on fare sold is route York. What is the correct course of action?....

The passenger is not on a permitted route, the permitted route is one that passes through York or on a route for which a cheaper through fare exists (which clearly isn't the case here) because the ticket is restricted to travel via York.

I have enquired about this scenario as the only suggestion I have doesn't follow the rules of 'Impartiallity' as I understand them.

For confirmation purposes, the FRPP is 'powered by TSO', but as stated, does not show a fare for Manchester to Alloa (even the rte York one), but my Fastis machine does show it at the mentioned price.

 

[John @ home]

The passenger is not on a permitted route

The passenger is travelling on a "Permitted Route" between Manchester Stations and Alloa as defined in the National Routeing Guide. This is important because the liability to pay an excess fare under Condition 13(e) in this case becomes more of an entitlement than a liability.

13. The route you are entitled to take
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.

the permitted route is one that passes through York or on a route for which a cheaper through fare exists (which clearly isn't the case here) because the ticket is restricted to travel via York.

I agree that the ticket is, in the first instance, only valid for those permitted routes which pass through York. I agree with kwvr45's professional opinion that, in the absence of an Any Permitted fare, the best solution is to issue a £0.00 excess fare from route York to route Any Permitted for the Manchester - Stirling portion of the journey.

John

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I agree with kwvr45's professional opinion that, in the absence of an Any Permitted fare, the best solution is to issue a £0.00 excess fare from route York to route Any Permitted for the Manchester - Stirling portion of the journey.

John

In fact it is a Rte Lancaster excess - the walk on fares are either Rte Lancaster or Rte York.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:cry: The workaround solution suggested kind of works, but it still seems a nonsense to have to pay a higher "Route York" fare between Manchester Stations and Alloa because there is no cheaper "Route Lancaster" alternative fare available.

For journeys between these two stations other than day returns, it seems that a more cost effective walk-up alternative would be to purchase the appropriate through return ticket from Manchester Stations to Larbert, and then day singles onward from Larbert to/from Alloa.

 

[John @ home]

In fact it is a Rte Lancaster excess - the walk on fares are either Rte Lancaster or Rte York.

Agreed. Manchester - Stirling walk-on fares are Rte Lancaster or Rte York.

Even that doesn't cover every permitted route. Using maps MH+MM+SG allows travel via Blackburn and Settle. Trains run on summer Sundays only, but it's another permitted route without a fare.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Mcr Warrior, if you asked to go via Carlisle when you bought the ticket, you should not be sold the route York ticket because it is not valid for the journey being made, an alternative solution would be sought, probably ending in the ticket being split at some point, however there would be no guarrantee that it is the cheapest option, only that it is the best solution the clerk could see.

John, there can only be a permitted route if there is a ticket that covers you for that journey, therefore, regardless what you believe the routeing guide should allow or what tickets you believe it says should exist, currently, via Carlisle is not a permitted route.

What would happen if a passenger travelled from Norwich to Ipswich on an any permitted ticket, but went via Ely or Lowerstoft instead of the direct route? Same theory must also apply, 13a and 13b don't apply here, so 13e says an excess to the single or return fare must be issued, oh, but wait, there isn't one.

And before you say it, I know they are not listed in the routeing guide as being permitted, but if there was a rte Ely or rte Lowerstoft ticket, it would be valid, same as if there was an any permitted or rte Lancaster ticket between Manchester and Alloa.

I am not saying it is right or fair, or that a fare should or should not exist, but it is how it is.

I agree that, at the moment, the best solution is the £0.00 excess when on board the train though, even if it is not strictly correct. The theory being that this is likely the ticket you would have been issued with had you bought your ticket(s) for that route at the ticket office.

 

[John @ home]

John, there can only be a permitted route if there is a ticket that covers you for that journey

Can you quote a source for that statement, please?

regardless what you believe the routeing guide should allow or what tickets you believe it says should exist, currently, via Carlisle is not a permitted route.

Printed on each ticket are the words

Travel is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

Therefore the National Rail Conditions of Carriage form a fundamental part of the contract for travel. This includes

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide

Therefore the National Routeing Guide also forms part of the contract for travel.

For this particular journey from Manchester to Alloa, a passenger travelling between Manchester and Carlisle is both on a train which takes the shortest route and on a train which takes a route shown in the National Routeing Guide.

The purpose of the National Routeing Guide is to define Permitted Routes.

PURPOSE OF THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE
The National Rail Conditions of Carriage require precise definition of the routes that a customer may use for a particular journey. These routes are known as "permitted routes". The National Routeing Guide enables users to determine whether the proposed journey is via a "permitted route".

The National Routeing Guide defines that the shortest route is always a Permitted Route.

WHEN TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route.

For this particular journey from Manchester to Alloa, a passenger travelling between Manchester and Carlisle is travelling on a Permitted Route. But the use of a ticket routed York is restricted by Condition 13(d).

13. (d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

So the Manchester to Alloa route York ticket is not, in the first instance, a valid ticket to use on this particular Permitted Route. But Condition 13(e) helps.

13. (e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.

In this instance, it is not 13(a) or 13(b) which is not met. It is 13(d). But I agree that this is still the best way to cope with the problem, leading to the issue of a £0.00 excess fare.

What would happen if a passenger travelled from Norwich to Ipswich on an any permitted ticket, but went via Ely or Lowerstoft instead of the direct route?

Condition 13(e) would apply.

13e says an excess to the single or return fare must be issued, oh, but wait, there isn't one.

There doesn't need to be one. In Condition 13(e), the use of ticket(s) instead of ticket allows for more than one fare to be used in the calculation.

I agree that, at the moment, the best solution is the £0.00 excess when on board

Good. We are agreed on the best outcome.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Can you quote a source for that statement, please?

Logic? If there is no ticket to cover it, how can it be permitted? If we are to use the rte York ticket then it is not permitted, because it does not pass through York, if we 'make' a ticket by putting a Manchester-Carlisle (for example) ticket with a Carlisle-Alloa ticket then the permitted routes are worked out for Manchester-Carlisle and Carlisle-Alloa, not Manchester-Alloa. You cannot have a permitted route for a ticket that doesn't exist.

For this particular journey from Manchester to Alloa, a passenger travelling between Manchester and Carlisle is travelling on a Permitted Route. But the use of a ticket routed York is restricted by Condition 13(d).

So the Manchester to Alloa route York ticket is not, in the first instance, a valid ticket to use on this particular Permitted Route. But Condition 13(e) helps.

I'm sorry, I fail to understand your logic, it is a permitted route over which you cannot travel? Surely that means it is not a permitted route.

....What is the correct course of action?

I certainly don't know!

John

....There doesn't need to be one. In Condition 13(e), the use of ticket(s) instead of ticket allows for more than one fare to be used in the calculation.

So why ask the question?

 

[John @ home]

Why ask the question when you already know the answer?

I didn't know the answer when I asked the question at 1449 on 9 November. kwvr45 produced a helpful reply within half an hour, based on what he had encountered in his work as a Conductor, which convinced me that the use of Condition 13(e) to issue a £0.00 excess fare was appropriate.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Apologises John I altered my response before I saw you had responded.

EDIT: You have never struck me as someone who would miss something like that.

 

[robert2000]

why would an1 want to go to alloa from manc in the 1st place.

 

[John @ home]

John, there can only be a permitted route if there is a ticket that covers you for that journey

Can you quote a source for that statement, please?

Logic? If there is no ticket to cover it, how can it be permitted?

Unfortunately, in this case logic works in the opposite way to your assumption. The purpose of the National Routeing Guide is to define Permitted Routes. And all Permitted Routes are defined in the NRG. The shortest route and the route taken by a through train are Permitted Routes provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual [NRG page A1].

In this instance, Manchester Stations is a Routeing Point and Alloa is a related station to the Stirling Routeing Point. For mapped routes, the appropriate instruction in the NRG is If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points [NRG page A5]. Unlike the position with the shortest route and the route taken by a through train, there is no condition relating to the correct fare being paid or the availability of any fare at all.

The National Routeing Guide should define one or more Permitted Routes between each pair of National Rail stations. Fares exists for some, but not all, Permitted Routes. In some instances, such as Manchester Stations - Alloa, fares exist for some but not all of the permitted routes between a pair of stations.

In other instances, no walk-on fares at all exist between a pair of stations, despite there being one or several Permitted Routes. An example of this Penrith - Alloa. Here, a passenger intending immediate travel who presents a valid Travel Warrant for a Penrith - Alloa journey must be issued with more than one ticket.

This is not a satisfactory situation. There is a need for a passenger-led pressure group to campaign effectively for it to be changed.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Okay, I have had a look through the NRG and here is what you are looking for....

HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES

Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in the Routeing Guide. This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the same overall journey. If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies....

So if you can produce an 'any permitted' or 'rte Carlisle' (or similar) routed ticket from Manchester to Alloa, then yes it is a permitted route for that ticket, but failing that it is not a permitted route.

 

[djw1981]

Maybe we need a national fares agency to set the standard fares, and then operators can discount to fill off peak trains?

Scotland are allegedly looking into doing this with possible zoning of the country.

 

[yorkie]

So if you can produce an 'any permitted' or 'rte Carlisle' (or similar) routed ticket from Manchester to Alloa, then yes it is a permitted route for that ticket, but failing that it is not a permitted route.

But that's too simplistic. If a route is more expensive, then it is valid via the cheaper routes. So a Manchester to Edinburgh Route York SVR (£76.90) is valid via Carlisle, the Route Carlisle SVR being £58.60. Some guards may choose to issue a £0 excess. So, what is the excess where only the more expensive route exists? It cannot possibly be more than £0. So you can call the ticket invalid all you like, but if the excess is no greater than £0 then it is effectively valid, or can, if you wish to word it that way, be made valid on payment of £0.00.

Also, you do not need to consult the RG when taking the shortest route. Your quote is from the RG which does not need to be consulted so we don't get as far as reading it when travelling via Lancaster.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But that's too simplistic. If a route is more expensive, then it is valid via the cheaper routes. So a Manchester to Edinburgh Route York SVR (£76.90) is valid via Carlisle, the Route Carlisle SVR being £58.60. Some guards may choose to issue a £0 excess. So, what is the excess where only the more expensive route exists? It cannot possibly be more than £0. So you can call the ticket invalid all you like, but if the excess is no greater than £0 then it is effectively valid, or can, if you wish to word it that way, be made valid on payment of £0.00.

If you read back, the point I initially made was that John claimed the passenger was on a permitted route, when they were not, no ticket exists to make it a permitted route, no lower fare exists to make the 'rte York' ticket valid either.

If a Conductor calculates a fare from two different tickets (in effect excessing to the ticket(s) you would have bought at the ticket office before departure), then that particular routeing is irrelevant because the route is no longer Manchester to Alloa, but a combination of two other routes which may or may not be similar. In any case, there is no one ticket to permit a passenger to travel from Manchester to Alloa via Carlisle and so the Manchester to Alloa via Carlisle routeing is not a permitted route.

In practice it may be irrelevant, but it cannot be denied.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....Also, you do not need to consult the RG when taking the shortest route. Your quote is from the RG which does not need to be consulted so we don't get as far as reading it when travelling via Lancaster.

The ticket is restricted to travel via York, therefore the shortest route between Manchester and Alloa (via Carlisle/Lancaster) cannot be valid on that ticket because York is not on that route.

 

[John @ home]

Maybe we need a national fares agency to set the standard fares, and then operators can discount to fill off peak trains?

Scotland are allegedly looking into doing this with possible zoning of the country.

Very interesting. Do you have a link to the source of this suggestion for Scotland? I can't immediately spot anything on google.

John

 

[yorkie]

The ticket is restricted to travel via York, therefore the shortest route between Manchester and Alloa (via Carlisle/Lancaster) cannot be valid on that ticket because York is not on that route.

can you quote where it says that (without referring to the RG as it doesn't need to be consulted for the shortest route) please

 

[djw1981]

TS proposed a review in line with the plan to bring smartcard (oyster-esque) travel to scotland by 2014.
ITSO smartcard trial on E-G (via Falikrk High) route http://www.atoc-comms.org/dynamic/toc-press-story/1001078/Smart-tickets-on-the-cards

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/reports/j9651/j9651.pdf indicates a requirenment to have similar zones for fares regardless of mode; I assume some premium for the faster journey time by rail would be permitted.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

can you quote where it says that (without referring to the RG as it doesn't need to be consulted for the shortest route) please

NCoC Condition 13

(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

NCoC Condition 13

(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

Also...

(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and
(b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have
entitled you to travel by that route.

What is the excess then??? £0.00! If you believe the excess is not £0.00, then please tell me what the excess should be and why