Excessing an Advance

[Merseysider]

Would I be correct in thinking that they also get the standard commission for selling a rail ticket, so their "percentage of the savings" commission is on top of this?

Yes, but the amount is small and often doesn't cover the cost of sending tickets by mail, or having tickets collected by the purchaser at a machine, for which TrainSplit pays the owner of the machine a fee. I'm sure you'll agree a business can't be successful if it's constantly breaking even

 

[najaB]

OP here. I don't wish to sound self righteous over this issue but here are my motivations on not raising the issue directly with XC...

I fully appreciate and agree with your way of thinking, and wouldn't want to drop someone in it either. Perhaps raise it as a general enquiry without mentioning any specifics? "Me and my mate were having an argument down at the pub..."

 

[jthjth]

I fully appreciate and agree with your way of thinking, and wouldn't want to drop someone in it either. Perhaps raise it as a general enquiry without mentioning any specifics? "Me and my mate were having an argument down at the pub..."

Well there might be an issue I might wish to raise with them, in general terms on the issue of "you can't excess advances", which I think we've concluded is not correct. As XC customer services were also stating this I might be inclined to suggest to them in general terms that they might wish to rethink this. However, my tickets were pretty much an edge case. I'm not sure how often this might happen. However, what is the situation when you buy a YP advance and get to the station minus a railcard? Can the advance be excessed (with or without a fee?) to the full adult fare at the ticket office, or does it have to be replaced with the attendant £10 fee? My son (yes it's him again!) was in this situation once, but he had an off peak return. This was excessed at the station prior to travel starting, and he got a refund later on once he wrote in with the tickets and proof of railcard ownership. If an advance can be excessed in similar circumstances XC's stance of advances not being able to be excessed would be incorrect, and potentially more in need of correction, as I can see this being a more frequent circumstance.

 

[yorkie]

Oh well, nothing changes, a future passenger will be stung by this Guard.

However, what is the situation when you buy a YP advance and get to the station minus a railcard?

Depends on the policy of the company who operate the ticket office.

Can the advance be excessed (with or without a fee?) to the full adult fare at the ticket office

At Newcastle or Berwick? Yes. I don't know about EMT operated stations though.

... and he got a refund later on once he wrote in with the tickets and proof of railcard ownership...

Some train companies will do this, but generally only as a 'one-off'.

If an advance can be excessed in similar circumstances XC's stance of advances not being able to be excessed would be incorrect, and potentially more in need of correction, as I can see this being a more frequent circumstance.

If this Guard doesn't respect contract law, then you can bet there'll be problems in future, until someone asserts their rights and writes to the company. Even then, there's no guarantee the company will do anything.

I've seen so many people be mistreated, it's hard not to get very cynical about these things, especially when you know there are people out there mistreating people right now and getting away with it.

 

[najaB]

Oh well, nothing changes, a future passenger will be stung by this Guard.

To provide a contrary viewpoint, we don't know what this Guard will do in the future, only what she says she would have done. It's not unknown for people to say that they will do things, and then not do them in the actual event.

So all we can say with certainty is that another passenger *may* get stung.

 

[yorkie]

Well I am making an assumption that they're true to their word, but you're right, they may be making false threats. Either way, someone is going to be threatened in the future. And if the wrong person is threatened, it could lead to someone being upset, or angry. That's not any way a public-facing person should behave. They should be trained in conflict avoidance techniques

 

[bb21]

To provide a contrary viewpoint, we don't know what this Guard will do in the future, only what she says she would have done. It's not unknown for people to say that they will do things, and then not do them in the actual event.

So all we can say with certainty is that another passenger *may* get stung.

... or that the guard thought about what she said, and eventually decided against taking any action.

Booting a passenger off a train incorrectly can have quite significant repurcussions for any guard, so I would have thought that any guard with a little bit of common sense would decide against carrying out such action unless absolutely sure.

Also with no harm done, any such complaint is unlikely to be treated with the same level of priority as those that saw the passenger suffer real losses (in terms of time, money or else).

 

[najaB]

That's not any way a public-facing person should behave. They should be trained in conflict avoidance techniques

Oh, I agree. But I can understand the reluctance to daub someone in it for something they didn't actually do. Hence why I suggested raising it as a more general question rather than a specific complaint - if only to get something in writing that sets out XC's corporate policy.

 

[razor89]

noticeable minority who appear to want to mistreat customers.

Oh well, nothing changes, a future passenger will be stung by this Guard.

If this Guard doesn't respect contract law

Either way, someone is going to be threatened in the future.

Well I am making an assumption that they're true to their word, but you're right, they may be making false threats. Either way, someone is going to be threatened in the future. And if the wrong person is threatened, it could lead to someone being upset, or angry. That's not any way a public-facing person should behave. They should be trained in conflict avoidance techniques

You certainly are making assumptions. We have one side of the story here and while I don't doubt its authenticity it seems clear to me that this situation could have just as likely been caused by a simple error of judgement, rather than a desire to mistreat customers.

The suggestion that the guard somehow doesn't respect contract law seems far-fetched to me. Personally I suspect the guard won't have anywhere near enough knowledge of contract law to choose whether to respect it or not!

I've seen people fully trained in conflict avoidance get caught up in arguments with customers. It's not acceptable but one isolated incident certainly doesn't imply they deliberately set out to mistreat customers when they come to work.

 

[jthjth]

I've written to XC, pointing out issue of advance tickets being excessed, and requesting that they let both their train staff and customer relations staff know that this is legitimate under the circumstances that I have already explained. I have also requested that if they continue to disagree they should reference the precise part of the regulations that they are relying upon. I have not mentioned the journey involved and have also stated that I do not wish to get anyone into trouble over this issue. This may possibly fix the issue for other people in the future.

 

[najaB]

I've written to XC...

If you would be so kind, let us know what they say in reply.

 

[jthjth]

I will.

 

[yorkie]

You certainly are making assumptions. We have one side of the story here and while I don't doubt its authenticity it seems clear to me that this situation could have just as likely been caused by a simple error of judgement, rather than a desire to mistreat customers.

The suggestion that the guard somehow doesn't respect contract law seems far-fetched to me. Personally I suspect the guard won't have anywhere near enough knowledge of contract law to choose whether to respect it or not!

I've seen people fully trained in conflict avoidance get caught up in arguments with customers. It's not acceptable but one isolated incident certainly doesn't imply they deliberately set out to mistreat customers when they come to work.

However you dress it up, the fact is that it's unacceptable behaviour. The ticket is evidence of a contract and that should be respected.

 

[razor89]

However you dress it up, the fact is that it's unacceptable behaviour. The ticket is evidence of a contract and that should be respected.

I completely agree.

 

[47271]

I recently found myself needing to excess Advances in the broadly similar circumstances of railcard use. I encountered no problems, but each time I spotted the problem before travelling and was able to ask for the excess at the ticket office.


I booked VTEC advances online for an elderly neighbour. I forgot to uncheck the railcard discount when I booked my own next batch of tickets. I thought they were a bit cheap. I only realised when I printed 20 minutes or so before travel. I went straight off to the ticket office (Edinburgh Waverley as it was) and they excessed me to the non railcard price without a murmer. I got the impression that they do it all the time.


Each time I travelled I highlighted the situation to the guard. One said he would've never noticed if I hadn't told him ('you can't see a thing on these new tickets', great) and another thanked me profusely for bothering to deal with the mistake so that he didn't have to do anything about it. The others passed no comment at all. This is VTEC and not Cross Country mind.


So, regardless of the rules or rights and wrongs, I have practical evidence of getting Advances excessed four times since January.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I recently found myself needing to excess Advances in the broadly similar circumstances of railcard use. I encountered no problems, but each time I spotted the problem before travelling and was able to ask for the excess at the ticket office.


I booked VTEC advances online for an elderly neighbour. I forgot to uncheck the railcard discount when I booked my own next batch of tickets. I thought they were a bit cheap. I only realised when I printed 20 minutes or so before travel. I went straight off to the ticket office (Edinburgh Waverley as it was) and they excessed me to the non railcard price without a murmer. I got the impression that they do it all the time.


Each time I travelled I highlighted the situation to the guard. One said he would've never noticed if I hadn't told him ('you can't see a thing on these new tickets', great) and another thanked me profusely for bothering to deal with the mistake so that he didn't have to do anything about it. The others passed no comment at all. This is VTEC and not Cross Country mind.


So, regardless of the rules or rights and wrongs, I have practical evidence of getting Advances excessed four times since January.

AIUI, VTEC (and East Coast before it) have a policy of doing a Railcard to Non-Railcard excess fare, not all TOCs do, in fact I think VTEC are more like the exception than the rule. Some clerks, from TOCs that don't have that policy, will still do it because either they don't know otherwise, or it is less hassle than getting people to pay for another ticket and claiming a refund (if possible), this sort of "not following the rules" or "lack of training" seems to be perfectly acceptable to some.

 

[yorkie]

... they excessed me to the non railcard price without a murmer. I got the impression that they do it all the time...

Yes, VTEC have a very sensible policy in this area.

Sadly there is no proper ombudsman, effective legislator, or regulator to ensure that sensible policies are adopted and followed by all train companies

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There is no requirement for TOCs to adopt this "sensible policy", so in the mean time some people are going to have to live with the consequences of the mistakes they make.

 

[yorkie]

There is no requirement for TOCs to adopt this "sensible policy", so in the mean time some people are going to have to live with the consequences of the mistakes they make.

And that sums up the attitude of some! I wonder if you tell your customers that if they 'shop around' and find a booking office operated by a different company they may get better service...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And that sums up the attitude of some! I wonder if you tell your customers that if they 'shop around' and find a booking office operated by a different company they may get better service...

As you are well aware, the majority of ticket offices are required to operate in an impartial manner. If travelling 50+ miles to get an excess fare appears to be in the best interests of the passenger then I'll mention it as an option.

 

[jthjth]

As I mentioned upthread, I did write to XC about this, to get their view on whether Advance tickets could be excessed by the issuing ticket office. They have come back with a well written response, which I reproduce below.

"I do appreciate you providing a copy of all your son's tickets for the journey in question, as this has helped with our enquiries into the issue you've raised. Having discussed this in depth with our Pricing & Revenue Manager, he has confirmed that it is indeed valid to change Standard to First Class on Advance tickets by means of issuing an excess; in circumstances such as this, it would usually be the case that the incorrectly-issued Standard tickets would be withdrawn, and full First Advance tickets issued in their place instead, but the issuing of an excess is still valid as long as this is done at a station prior to travel.

It would appear that the confusion here has apparently arisen from the fact that it isn't possible to issue such an excess fare onboard a train if the customer had the opportunity to do this beforehand; in such cases, a full First Class single fare for the journey in question would have to be charged instead. As the issuing of a Standard-to-First Advance excess isn't as common as withdrawing and reissuing the tickets in their entirety, this would seem to account for the Train Manager's belief that your son's tickets hadn't been validly issued by the staff at Berwick station, which is deeply regrettable.

As the reservation coupons have allowed us to identify which service you son travelled on, I've personally shared your feedback with the relevant Customer Service Manager responsible for the Train Manager in question, in order to ensure that he can brief her about this particular matter, to ensure that similar errors don't happen in future; I'll also make sure that our Customer Relations Manager is made aware of the incorrect information having been given by one of the team, so that action can be taken to address this going forward. In the meantime, I'd like to offer my heartfelt apologies for the problems your son faced when he travelled.

Thank you for taking the time to bring this to our attention; I do hope we'll be able to welcome your son back aboard soon."

So yes, everyone here was right
Again, thank you to everyone who took the trouble to respond to my initial enquiry.

 

[najaB]

As I mentioned upthread, I did write to XC about this, to get their view on whether Advance tickets could be excessed by the issuing ticket office. They have come back with a well written response, which I reproduce below.

Seems fair enough, and it sounds like they've taken it in the manner it was intended and are going to provide a briefing rather than discipline the TM concerned.