Exeter to Exmouth and Paignton every 15 minutes?

[TheWalrus]

Hello

I read in a railway magazine today that Devon Council (I think) want to build various new stations and also increase the frequency of services from Exeter to Paignton and Exmouth to every 15 minutes.

I foresee many problems with this:

Firstly the infrastructure on the Exmouth branch is unlikely to be sufficient to sustain a 15 minute service. It is mostly single track so will probably need a fair bit of redoubling.

With the Paignton service, I really don't think there will be enough paths - assuming these are stopping services they are proposing - amongst the fast services on the line.

Also surely there's not enough demand to justify it particularly during the winter months?

 

[Rich McLean]

Hello

I read in a railway magazine today that Devon Council (I think) want to build various new stations and also increase the frequency of services from Exeter to Paignton and Exmouth to every 15 minutes.

I foresee many problems with this:

Firstly the infrastructure on the Exmouth branch is unlikely to be sufficient to sustain a 15 minute service. It is mostly single track so will probably need a fair bit of redoubling.

With the Paignton service, I really don't think there will be enough paths - assuming these are stopping services they are proposing - amongst the fast services on the line.

Also surely there's not enough demand to justify it particularly during the winter months?

Every 30 minutes would be understandable on the Devon Metro, but every 15 mins is ridiculous.

 

[CC 72100]

Personally I would rather see an additional service from Pinhoe into Exeter (stopping at St James park) as opposed to increasing all of the Exmouth branch up to a 15 minute frequency.

Every 15 minutes to Paignton will never happen - for the moment due to lack of stock, but more a more important permanent issue has to be lack of paths. I can see the argument for improving the frequency to half hourly, that could be do-able but every 15 minutes is just laughable, i'm sorry.

 

[455driver]

Exmouth line is looking at every 20 minutes with 2 new stations, Paignton is looking to add a Newton Abbott to Paignton shuttle, bloomin newspapers enhancing things.

Basically all the branchlines from Exeter could do with more trains, there certainly is the passenger demand for it but that would mean FGW getting more units to run the services, can you see the problem yet?

 

[CC 72100]

Exmouth line is looking at every 20 minutes with 2 new stations, Paignton is looking to add a Newton Abbott to Paignton shuttle, bloomin newspapers enhancing things.

Basically all the branchlines from Exeter could do with more trains, there certainly is the passenger demand for it but that would mean FGW getting more units to run the services, can you see the problem yet?

That sounds a lot more realistic. I'm not sure whether the Paignton - Newton Abbot shuttle really tackles the busiest part though, I'd have thought it was moreso the sea wall intermediate stations that warranted a more frequent service?

Indeed, as someone who regularly uses the services in Devon (although not at the moment, obviously!) I can safely say that any capacity increases will be very much welcomed. In an ideal world you would want to get rid of all pacers that run on their own, but i've been on a few rammed 153/143 combos in my time as well. I'd even go as far to say that sometimes a 150 on it's own isn't great either, but until stock is released, the planners will have to work out the most effective use of what they've got.

 

[455driver]

The sea wall stations will remain at one an hour because another stopper cannot reliably be fitted in between the fast FGW and XC services, mores the pity but when the 165s get down there (oops thats supposed to be a secret) the increase in acceleration might make it possible.

There is a lot of demand for extra services down Exeter way (as long as they buy tickets) thats for sure.

 

[TEW]

The Paignton-Newton Abbot shuttles are introduced from December. A couple of extra runs to Exeter St Davids too. Means Paignton-Newton Abbot is half-hourly for most the day.

 

[CC 72100]

There is a lot of demand for extra services down Exeter way (as long as they buy tickets) thats for sure.

Good point. Although revenue seems not to be done after about 9pm, and when you're running a HST down the sea wall on an all shacks then it is probably never going to get done, but that's for a different thread
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The Paignton-Newton Abbot shuttles are introduced from December. A couple of extra runs to Exeter St Davids too. Means Paignton-Newton Abbot is half-hourly for most the day.

As much as i'm pleased from a frequency perspective, i'm a little concerned as to where the stock is going to come from. All I can see is that remaining stock is as a result spread more thinly, which isn't what we want at all.
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The sea wall stations will remain at one an hour because another stopper cannot reliably be fitted in between the fast FGW and XC services, mores the pity but when the 165s get down there (oops thats supposed to be a secret) the increase in acceleration might make it possible.

Unless you had one an hour - all stations, and one an hour which is semi express, only stopping at Dawlish and Teignmouth? Maybe that way you could just about manage it.

 

[Xavi]

If the UK was sensible with infrastructure investment then doubling Exmouth Junction to Digby & Sowton area, a passing loop at Lympstone, second platform at Exmouth, a new station at Hill Barton to serve the Met Office plus new and existing residential areas and the already approved Newcourt station would be a formality. A 20-minute frequency would be feasible and necessary to meet demand on an already thriving route. Exeter already has 8 stations and with Central right in the centre of the city the demand for local rail travel is booming and probably greater than any other city of comparable size in the UK. Logic says invest a relatively small sum for a big gain, but this is Devon and not London....

BTW with the loop at Dawlish Warren it should be no problem at all to operate a half-hourly Devon Metro between Exeter and Newton Abbot. In fact it is at peak hours already, so should be easy to accommodate all day. Better still reinstate loops and a station at the rapidly growing Exminster. But that would be more investment in Devon...

 

[TEW]

As much as i'm pleased from a frequency perspective, i'm a little concerned as to where the stock is going to come from. All I can see is that remaining stock is as a result spread more thinly, which isn't what we want at all.

Indeed. The extra Melksham services also require an extra unit too, so that's two extra units from December.

 

[starrymarkb]

As much as i'm pleased from a frequency perspective, i'm a little concerned as to where the stock is going to come from. All I can see is that remaining stock is as a result spread more thinly, which isn't what we want at all.

IIRC the current timetable has a long layover in Paignton, presumably they plan to run up to Newton Abbot and back in time for the next Exmouth run?

 

[455driver]

If the UK was sensible with infrastructure investment

Can you see a flaw in the plan?

then doubling Exmouth Junction to Digby & Sowton area, a passing loop at Lympstone, second platform at Exmouth, a new station at Hill Barton to serve the Met Office plus new and existing residential areas and the already approved Newcourt station would be a formality.

Agreed apart from the second platform at Exmouth is not really needed.

A 20-minute frequency would be feasible and necessary to meet demand on an already thriving route. Exeter already has 8 stations and with Central right in the centre of the city the demand for local rail travel is booming and probably greater than any other city of comparable size in the UK.

You have been doing a lot of reading about this havent you!

Logic says invest a relatively small sum for a big gain, but this is Devon and not London....

But Devon CC seem to be waking up to the gains that the railways can provide relatively cheaply so watch this space.

BTW with the loop at Dawlish Warren it should be no problem at all to operate a half-hourly Devon Metro between Exeter and Newton Abbot. In fact it is at peak hours already, so should be easy to accommodate all day. Better still reinstate loops and a station at the rapidly growing Exminster. But that would be more investment in Devon...

The extra morning peak trains do tend to trip up the fast trains though.
Unfortunately Exminster cannot provide any car parking otherwise it would be very high on the list.

 

[TEW]

IIRC the current timetable has a long layover in Paignton, presumably they plan to run up to Newton Abbot and back in time for the next Exmouth run?

No, layovers are generally fairly short at Paignton, 20 minutes being about the maximum. Its an extra dedicated unit being used to provide the Newton Abbot shuttles with the exception of one run which is being covered by the unit which runs the Cardiff-Paignton service, which does have a long layover.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I read in a railway magazine today that Devon Council (I think) want to build various new stations and also increase the frequency of services from Exeter to Paignton and Exmouth to every 15 minutes.

There were two halts constructed on the line from the Exeter area to Exmouth in past times that were both closed many years ago:-
Mount Pleasant Road Halt......Opened 1906..Closed 1928
Clyst St Mary and Digby Halt..Opened 1908..Closed 1948

Incidentally, is Topsham the only passing place on this single track railway line ?

 

[455driver]

Incidentally, is Topsham the only passing place on this single track railway line ?

At the moment yes but there are (sort of) plans for a couple of others, cant remember where at the moment!

see signature!

 

[Xavi]

There were two halts constructed on the line from the Exeter area to Exmouth in past times that were both closed many years ago:-
Mount Pleasant Road Halt......Opened 1906..Closed 1928
Clyst St Mary and Digby Halt..Opened 1908..Closed 1948

Incidentally, is Topsham the only passing place on this single track railway line ?

Mount Pleasant was opposite end of Blackboy Tunnel from St James' Park on the LSWR mainline and not far from Polsloe Bridge either, so understandable why it had a short life. Clyst St Mary and Digby Halt was opposite side of Sidmouth Road from the present Digby & Sowton, which is incidentally one of the highest used unmanned stations in the UK.

 

[tbtc]

At least a 165 replacing a Pacer/ 150 will mean a big increase in capacity, even if there's no scope for additional services each hour

 

[TEW]

Well, yes and no. A 2-car 165 has 181 seats at the moment, and I'd assume it's more likely 2-cars would be used in Devon. A 150/1 has 141 seats but a pair of 143s has 184 seats, and more bicycle and standing space than a single 165.

 

[starrymarkb]

Mount Pleasant was opposite end of Blackboy Tunnel from St James' Park on the LSWR mainline and not far from Polsloe Bridge either, so understandable why it had a short life. Clyst St Mary and Digby Halt was opposite side of Sidmouth Road from the present Digby & Sowton, which is incidentally one of the highest used unmanned stations in the UK.

Indeed Digby is now up to 370,000 passengers per year

 

[tbtc]

At least a 165 replacing a Pacer/ 150 will mean a big increase in capacity, even if there's no scope for additional services each hour

Well, yes and no. A 2-car 165 has 181 seats at the moment, and I'd assume it's more likely 2-cars would be used in Devon. A 150/1 has 141 seats but a pair of 143s has 184 seats, and more bicycle and standing space than a single 165.

Just going with the comments that a single Pacer/ single 150/ 143+153 are common on the lines.

If a doubled up Pacer is common then that's different.

 

[455driver]

If a doubled up Pacer is common then that's different.

In a word Length, a double Pacer is only 4x 15.5m long (62m) but a single 3 coach 165 is 3x 23 (69m).

 

[TEW]

Just going with the comments that a single Pacer/ single 150/ 143+153 are common on the lines.

If a doubled up Pacer is common then that's different.

Single 150s, pairs of 153s and double 143s are the most common formations.

 

[CC 72100]

In a word Length, a double Pacer is only 4x 15.5m long (62m) but a single 3 coach 165 is 3x 23 (69m).

If 3 coach 165s were the standard, then that would represent an increase in capacity in virtually all circumstances I think.

 

[TEW]

But at the moment that's a big if. There's a large number of 2-car 165s as well, and they've got to go somewhere. To me it seems more likely the 3-car units would end up around Bristol and the 2-car units around Exeter.

 

[455driver]

If 3 coach 165s were the standard, then that would represent an increase in capacity in virtually all circumstances I think.

Most summer services are either 4 coach 143 or 150+153 so a 3 coach 165 would be able the same capacity, there certainly woulnt be a large increase in capacity and that is what is desperately needed.
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But at the moment that's a big if. There's a large number of 2-car 165s as well, and they've got to go somewhere. To me it seems more likely the 3-car units would end up around Bristol and the 2-car units around Exeter.

If those 2 coach sets were doubled up then yes excellent but are there enough of them?

I dont think so.

 

[TEW]

A lot will depend on how many 15x units FGW can keep when the 165/6s are transferred West. The more they can keep the more capacity can be provided.

 

[swt_passenger]

It wouldn't be the first time a local authority wrongly described a proposed service simply by double counting up and down services.

Half hourly trains were all that ever appeared in the GW ITT...

 

[PHILIPE]

Single 150s, pairs of 153s and double 143s are the most common formations.

Also 153s with a 150 or single 143.

 

[30907]

Incidentally, is Topsham the only passing place on this single track railway line ?

Yes. Exmouth Jn-Topsham was double until (I think) Exeter area resignalling - or the M5, whichever came first!). In steam days Lympstone was - very unusually - a block post but with no crossing loop; this was useful as there was an Exmouth-Exeter fast each way in the peaks (and on summer Sunday evenings - I've just checked).

On a quick Googlemaps check, redoubling from Exmouth Jn to the A379 bridge would make sense, and then a loop somewhere between the two Lympstone stations.

 

[anthony263]

A lot will depend on how many 15x units FGW can keep when the 165/6s are transferred West. The more they can keep the more capacity can be provided.

I think FGW will need to retain some class 150's as I wouldnt be too surprised if there will be issue's trying to clear a class 165 on some of teh branchlines in Cornwall.

I do wonder where these extra units are coming from especially since FGW are going to need at least 3 units with Melksham having a 2 hourly service and and extra services around Exeter.

I suppose you could tighten up diagrams to release a unit along with doing more work on units during the weekends and overnight but I still think it is going to be tight.

Come on FGW/DFT and bring back those loco hauled rakes to the Cardiff - Taunton/Paignton route, that should free up a good few dmu's