Expanding HS1 - Steer Davis Gleave

[Bald Rick]

Dylan Crowther, the Chief Executive of High Speed set the scene as follows:

I’m sure Dyan will be delighted to be called Dylan. I wouldn’t call her that, if I were you. You might lose something soft and dangly.

Internationally, I'd say - although it would need some work with Tunnel compliant stock and border checks - there is a case for a Nightjet sleeper service to somewhere like Berlin or Hamburg.

A case by what measure and using what assessment?

The report specifically mentions Bordeaux, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Frankfurt and Geneva as new destinations with the likely greatest benefits via International day trains.

Which is precisely what some of us have been saying on various threads on these pages for the past 5 years. Jim must have been reading them.

Genuine question from a train enthusiast with no technical railway knowledge. Plans for sleeper trains from Austria, Sweden, Denmark to Germany/Begium are predicated on an environmentally replacement for air travel but presumably will make money. Why would similar services from London not be competitive and at least marginally profitable?

Unsafe assumption. They won’t make money on the continent. The Swedes have just committed £30m to continue developing the proposal, before evn running a train.

 

[Starmill]

Jim must have been reading them.

As I think you probably know, there are certainly people who do who know their work.

 

[Starmill]

As ever I would be quite satisfied with just a few London to Brussels services running through the Koln Hbf. Removing those horribly unreliable Brussels Midi connections, adding direct London services for Liege and Aachen and putting a significant number of other cities one change away, for the hardened 6 hour plus travellers, is quite appealing.

 

[CW2]

As ever I would be quite satisfied with just a few London to Brussels services running through the Koln Hbf. Removing those horribly unreliable Brussels Midi connections, adding direct London services for Liege and Aachen and putting a significant number of other cities one change away, for the hardened 6 hour plus travellers, is quite appealing.

There's a lot to be said for that. How would the passport checking work though (post Brexit especially)?

 

[Starmill]

There's a lot to be said for that. How would the passport checking work though (post Brexit especially)?

With great difficulty and expense, no doubt. As with Amsterdam Centraal.

 

[Ianno87]

As ever I would be quite satisfied with just a few London to Brussels services running through the Koln Hbf. Removing those horribly unreliable Brussels Midi connections, adding direct London services for Liege and Aachen and putting a significant number of other cities one change away, for the hardened 6 hour plus travellers, is quite appealing.

If DB were still.on the scene for this (and you were properly getting the timetable crayons out), it'd be a 400 metre train to Köln, splitting there into portions for Düsseldorf and Frankfurt.

There's a lot to be said for that. How would the passport checking work though (post Brexit especially)?

With great difficulty and expense, no doubt. As with Amsterdam Centraal.

Also the far from trivial matter of getting platform capacity at Köln Hauptbahnhof....

 

[mwmbwls]

I’m sure Dyan will be delighted to be called Dylan. I wouldn’t call her that, if I were you. You might lose something soft and dangly.

Thank you - the curse of auto-correct strikes again. My Apologies - Madam.

 

[HSTEd]

So is this a case of having to rebuild the signalling and order higher performance domestic trains to make best use of paths?

How much platform capacity is even available?

 

[RT4038]

As ever I would be quite satisfied with just a few London to Brussels services running through the Koln Hbf. Removing those horribly unreliable Brussels Midi connections, adding direct London services for Liege and Aachen and putting a significant number of other cities one change away, for the hardened 6 hour plus travellers, is quite appealing.

And replacing them with horribly unreliable connections at Koln Hbf?

 

[Ianno87]

So is this a case of having to rebuild the signalling and order higher performance domestic trains to make best use of paths?

How much platform capacity is even available?

It's more of a case of domestic trains stopping at Stratford / Ebbsfleet and diverging/reconverging with the main line twice and eating up capacity that way. Overtaking doesn't help hugely as the overtaken train consumes two paths - one before and one after each overtake. Headways or train performance improvements don't really solve that problem.

International platform capacity at St P could probably be used a little more intensively than it is now. You'd just need to employ all of the 4 standard international paths more consistently every hour.

 

[HSTEd]

It's more of a case of domestic trains stopping at Stratford / Ebbsfleet and diverging/reconverging with the main line twice and eating up capacity that way. Overtaking doesn't help hugely as the overtaken train consumes two paths - one before and one after each overtake. Headways or train performance improvements don't really solve that problem.

Well if there are enough stopping trains, doesn't that allow paths to be used twice as the next train will slot into it?

I think the real answer is 400m platforms for domestic services, but I can't see that happening.

 

[Ianno87]

Well if there are enough stopping trains, doesn't that allow paths to be used twice as the next train will slot into it?

No, as there is only one domestic platform per direction at Stratford (so an arriving train needs to be one pathway behind the one a preceding train is restarting into).

*Might* be practical if the "International" platforms at Stratford were given over to permanent domestic use.

I think the real answer is 400m platforms for domestic services, but I can't see that happening.

Physically impossible at Ashford and Stratford (and highly difficult at St pancras)

 

[HSTEd]

No, as there is only one domestic platform per direction at Stratford (so an arriving train needs to be one pathway behind the one a preceding train is restarting into).

*Might* be practical if the "International" platforms at Stratford were given over to permanent domestic use.

Have those international platforms ever actually been used for international services?

Physically impossible at Ashford and Stratford (and highly difficult at St pancras)

Shouldn't stratford have 400m platforms if it was planned to accept Eurostars at some point?

 

[Ianno87]

Have those international platforms ever actually been used for international services?



Shouldn't stratford have 400m platforms if it was planned to accept Eurostars at some point?

-No. Only used for domestic javelins during the 2012 Olympics and Paralympics

-Only the international platforms are 400m. The domestic platforms are 200m and hemmed in by various crossovers (including those needed to access the Temple Mills depot line).

 

[ABB125]

-No. Only used for domestic javelins during the 2012 Olympics and Paralympics

-Only the international platforms are 400m. The domestic platforms are 200m and hemmed in by various crossovers (including those needed to access the Temple Mills depot line).

I thought the domestic platforms were 240m (ie: 12x20m class 395 vehicles)?
Anyway, 4tph Southeastern and 2tph(?) Eurostar doesn't seem a particularly intensive service - surely a new build high speed line should be able to cope with more than that?

 

[JonathanH]

Anyway, 4tph Southeastern and 2tph(?) Eurostar doesn't seem a particularly intensive service - surely a new build high speed line

8tph at peak times plus 4 Eurostar paths.

 

[ABB125]

8tph at peak times plus 4 Eurostar paths.

How many of the Eurostar paths are actually used, and what interval are they? I seem to remember reading somewhere on here that they are something like xx00, xx03, xx30, xx33. Or is it more a case that Eurostar services operate irregularly, so all the paths are used at different times throughout the day?

 

[JonathanH]

How many of the Eurostar paths are actually used, and what interval are they? I seem to remember reading somewhere on here that they are something like xx00, xx03, xx30, xx33. Or is it more a case that Eurostar services operate irregularly, so all the paths are used at different times throughout the day?

You can get a reasonable idea from this - they do seem to be a bit irregular, presumably connected with calls at Ebbsfleet and Ashford and there is no hour where there are four departures.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-0159?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=ES

Remember as well that there is quite a bit of empty stock working to Temple Mills involved as well.

 

[Ianno87]

I thought the domestic platforms were 240m (ie: 12x20m class 395 vehicles)?
Anyway, 4tph Southeastern and 2tph(?) Eurostar doesn't seem a particularly intensive service - surely a new build high speed line should be able to cope with more than that?

Sorry, 240metres.

How many of the Eurostar paths are actually used, and what interval are they? I seem to remember reading somewhere on here that they are something like xx00, xx03, xx30, xx33. Or is it more a case that Eurostar services operate irregularly, so all the paths are used at different times throughout the day?

You can get a reasonable idea from this - they do seem to be a bit irregular, presumably connected with calls at Ebbsfleet and Ashford and there is no hour where there are four departures.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-0159?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=ES

Basically xx01/04/31/34 standard non-stop paths from St P (Paris/Brussels/Paris/Brussels).

Trains depart 7 mins earlier when calling Ebbsfleet, 9 mins earlier when calling Ashford.

 

[ABB125]

Sorry, 240metres.




Basically xx01/04/31/34 standard non-stop paths from St P (Paris/Brussels/Paris/Brussels).

Trains depart 7 mins earlier when calling Ebbsfleet, 9 mins earlier when calling Ashford.

Thanks

 

[BahrainLad]

I notice the fastest (well, the fast one, there are only two...) Lille-Bordeaux TGVs are 4h45, so even with fewer stops in France a London service would struggle to get under 6 hours. Is that really a market? It's roughly the same as London-Marseille.

 

[Ianno87]

I notice the fastest (well, the fast one, there are only two...) Lille-Bordeaux TGVs are 4h45, so even with fewer stops in France a London service would struggle to get under 6 hours. Is that really a market? It's roughly the same as London-Marseille.

Though that seems to be with stops at Poitiers, Angoulême, etc (ie. Leaving the LGV route)

Running direct via LGV SEA without stops knocks at least 50 minutes or so off that time.

 

[BahrainLad]

Yes indeed. However for many British holidaymakers / property owners heading to the Dordogne, a stop in Angoulême or Libourne will be more attractive than Bordeaux!

 

[Bald Rick]

I notice the fastest (well, the fast one, there are only two...) Lille-Bordeaux TGVs are 4h45, so even with fewer stops in France a London service would struggle to get under 6 hours. Is that really a market? It's roughly the same as London-Marseille.

Yes indeed. However for many British holidaymakers / property owners heading to the Dordogne, a stop in Angoulême or Libourne will be more attractive than Bordeaux!

Indeed. However, there is a market for London - Avignon / Marseille, so it is reasonable to assume a similar market exists for the Dordogne / Medoc. Particularly for anyone who has experienced the hell that is the ‘Billi’ terminal at Bordeaux airport on a summer weekend.

 

[sga962]

There, quite simply, is not. A path or two an hour, maybe. Eighteen? Nope.

And any spare capacity needs to be used for its most valuable purpose. Which is London to Canterbury domestically, or to Bordeaux/Cologne/Geneva etc Internationally, as outlined in the report.

I don't think anyone would actually expect all 18 to go on to HS1

How many of the Eurostar paths are actually used, and what interval are they? I seem to remember reading somewhere on here that they are something like xx00, xx03, xx30, xx33. Or is it more a case that Eurostar services operate irregularly, so all the paths are used at different times throughout the day?

I'm not sure what the exact timings are but Eurostar paths on HS1 are determined so that they arrive at the right time for their paths through the tunnel which is where the difficutlies lie

 

[CW2]

I'm not sure what the exact timings are but Eurostar paths on HS1 are determined so that they arrive at the right time for their paths through the tunnel which is where the difficutlies lie

As a bit of background, the timetabling through Eurotunnel determines the Eurostar paths on HS1, which in turn determines what other paths are available. The Eurostar paths through the tunnel are at standard times each 30 minutes, so (as explained above) if a train stop st Ebbsfleet or Ashford it is the St Pancras departure time that is flexed.
You can have a maximum of 4 Eurostars in any given hour, in two flights of two, running 3 minutes apart.
The Eurotunnel planning headway is 3 minutes, so there is theoretical capacity for 20 trains per hour (tph). The "standard pathway" is set by the transit time of the Shuttle services which run at 140 kph, taking 21 minutes from portal to portal. Any train that runs faster or slower than the shuttle (for example a Eurostar or a 100 kph freight) will consume one third of a path for every minute faster or slower than the standard path.
So in a normal hour there is a 50/50 split in capacity between Eurotunnel and the National Railways (i.e. Eurostar + freight), because that is how it was defined in the original Treaty. Any unused capacity reverts to ET so they can run additional shuttles over and above their 50% capacity share, if needed.
Portal to Portal transit times are:
Eurostar 19 minutes = 1 2/3 paths
2 Eurostars flighted = 2 2/3 paths
ET Shuttle 21 minutes = 1 path
120 kph freight 28 minutes = 2 1/3 paths (I'm unsure of this one)
100 kph freight 30 minutes = 3 paths
So in any half hour if there are 2 Eurostars and a 120 kph freight, the National Railways have used their entire path allocation. If a 100 kph freight needs to run, it can't do so whenever 2 Eurostars need to run, unless the Eurostars can be slowed down so they only consume 2 paths (involving retiming throughout to / from London, Paris and Bruxelles).
Sorry that's gone on a bit, but it gives you an idea of the complexities of timetabling the tunnel. Add on limited platform capacity at St Pancras and you have an interesting conundrum as to just how much usable spare capacity really exists on HS1.

 

[sga962]

As a bit of background, the timetabling through Eurotunnel determines the Eurostar paths on HS1, which in turn determines what other paths are available.

That's what I said

The Eurostar paths through the tunnel are at standard times each 30 minutes, so (as explained above) if a train stop st Ebbsfleet or Ashford it is the St Pancras departure time that is flexed.
You can have a maximum of 4 Eurostars in any given hour, in two flights of two, running 3 minutes apart.
The Eurotunnel planning headway is 3 minutes, so there is theoretical capacity for 20 trains per hour (tph). The "standard pathway" is set by the transit time of the Shuttle services which run at 140 kph, taking 21 minutes from portal to portal. Any train that runs faster or slower than the shuttle (for example a Eurostar or a 100 kph freight) will consume one third of a path for every minute faster or slower than the standard path.
So in a normal hour there is a 50/50 split in capacity between Eurotunnel and the National Railways (i.e. Eurostar + freight), because that is how it was defined in the original Treaty. Any unused capacity reverts to ET so they can run additional shuttles over and above their 50% capacity share, if needed.
Portal to Portal transit times are:
Eurostar 19 minutes = 1 2/3 paths
2 Eurostars flighted = 2 2/3 paths
ET Shuttle 21 minutes = 1 path
120 kph freight 28 minutes = 2 1/3 paths (I'm unsure of this one)
100 kph freight 30 minutes = 3 paths
So in any half hour if there are 2 Eurostars and a 120 kph freight, the National Railways have used their entire path allocation. If a 100 kph freight needs to run, it can't do so whenever 2 Eurostars need to run, unless the Eurostars can be slowed down so they only consume 2 paths (involving retiming throughout to / from Lndon, Paris and Bruxelles).
Sorry that's gone on a bit, but it gives you an idea of the complexities of timetabling the tunnel. Add on limited platform capacity at St Pancras and you have an interesting conundrum as to just how much usable spare capacity really exists on HS1.

Some of this I think I knew and had forgotten, some of it I didn't know, so thanks for new knowledge

 

[CW2]

@sga962: I think we are singing off the same hymn sheet!

 

[sga962]

@sga962: I think we are singing off the same hymn sheet!

Though I think you've read more of it than me XD

 

[cle]

The beauty of Bordeaux and Geneva paths would be to absorb the Disney services (if two called per morning southbound, then capacity might be addressed) - indeed the Marne le Vallee station could become an Eastern Paris railhead with a few services daily. Appreciate the demand and money is south and west of Paris, really.

Equally the beauty of Amsterdam/Koln/onwards is extending Brussels - again with caveats about capacity for Brussels itself.

The likes of Liege and Aachen are no-marks on a bigger scale (even Antwerp didn't make the cut) - not just demand but also the investment in customs/security ringfencing and the operational/platform concerns (Schiphol). I would say the same for Poitiers and so forth. There is nowhere worth stopping from London to Geneva after Disney, as it avoid Dijon.

Plus other international journeys must appeal. Brussels-Amsterdam at a clip faster than Thalys. Or perhaps Brussels - Koln - Frankfurt only, again much quicker than ICE. You might even turn a seat twice (post-Covid caveats) - and make money on those inner parts. Intra-France won't work sadly, but Lille-Geneva if there is demand could fit into this.