Expanding Merseyrail/Metrolink/T&W Metro

[142094]

You have to remember that when the current Metro system was created, tunnelling was kept to an absolute minimum, to keep costs down.

 

[Waverley125]

how long would a Gateshead-Dunston tunnel be? Assuming a station for Bensham on the corner of Whitehall Road & Brighton Road, where the football pitches are now? A Mile if not less?

 

[Eire Sprinter]

Merseyrail

Ormskirk-Preston
Kirkby-Wigan Wallgate
Kirkby-Bootle New Strand
Bidston-Wrexham Central
West Kirkby-Hooton via Heswall & Neston (Wirral Loop)
Ellesmere Port-Runcorn North
Hunts Cross-Bootle New Strand/Aintree (Outer Circle)
Albert Dock-Sandhills via Edge Hill (Inner Circle)


Highly unlikely I know but would like to see the short underground branch to Dingle off the Liverpool Central to Hunts Cross line reopened. (This was the southern terminus of the Liverpool Overhead).

The station is in use as a car garage. Whilst the area surrounding the former station is well populated this may well not be suffice on its own and a higher order land use (e.g. large development such as an university campus) in the area may be required to develop the critical mass to justify such a project.

 

[John55]

Merseyrail

Ormskirk-Preston
Kirkby-Wigan Wallgate
Kirkby-Bootle New Strand
Bidston-Wrexham Central
West Kirkby-Hooton via Heswall & Neston (Wirral Loop)
Ellesmere Port-Runcorn North
Hunts Cross-Bootle New Strand/Aintree (Outer Circle)
Albert Dock-Sandhills via Edge Hill (Inner Circle)


Highly unlikely I know but would like to see the short underground branch to Dingle off the Liverpool Central to Hunts Cross line reopened. (This was the southern terminus of the Liverpool Overhead).

The station is in use as a car garage. Whilst the area surrounding the former station is well populated this may well not be suffice on its own and a higher order land use (e.g. large development such as an university campus) in the area may be required to develop the critical mass to justify such a project.

The old LOR tunnel is at a higher level than the Hunts Cross line (in fact crosses it on a bridge within the tunnels). How do you expect to solve this disparity in level?

Dingle is between St Michaels and Brunswick (which did not coexist with the LOR) and not too far from either. How much traffic do you expect to use a reopened Dingle even if any modern train could fit into the tunnel and could climb any gradient to get to it?

 

[Eire Sprinter]

The old LOR tunnel is at a higher level than the Hunts Cross line (in fact crosses it on a bridge within the tunnels). How do you expect to solve this disparity in level?

Dingle is between St Michaels and Brunswick (which did not coexist with the LOR) and not too far from either. How much traffic do you expect to use a reopened Dingle even if any modern train could fit into the tunnel and could climb any gradient to get to it?

It would require a steeply graded approach i.e. embankment from the Brunswick side. Similar probably to the gradient which Valley Lines trains climb immediately east of Cardiff Central before crossing the South Wales main line.

Out of interest is the bridge on which the old LOR tunnel crosses the Hunts Cross line still extant?

Whilst not having tunnel dimensions the LOR trains seemed sizeable enough.

Reopening St. James is probably a much more realistic prospect.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Eccles-Leigh
This also would be a good idea. Leigh NEEDS to be rail connected to Manchester. This would be a far better means of doing this than the daft 'Busway' idea that is being floated at this time. If is is routed properly, then the Towns of Tyldesely, Mosley Common and Worsley would really benefit with a Metrolink service into central Manchester.

St Werburgh's Road-Fallowfield
Possible this might work if you continued past Fallowfield and terminated the trams at either Guide Bridge, to extend them through Hyde and terminated them at Marple Rose Hill. This would release capacity on heavy rail services running into Piccadilly from Chinley & Sheffield.

With regard to the Leigh Guided Busway, there has definitely been ground clearance works already carried out on this project according to the TfGM briefing notes issued in March 2012, which was also discussing the Traffic Regulation Orders involved. The busway is scheduled to be operational by 2015...(construction commencing in 2013).

The St Werburgh's Road to Fallowfield item you mention would appear to be the old Fallowfield Loop Line. Has there ever been any recent discussions on the future strategic transportation use of of this once well-used South Manchester suburban railway?

 

[Holly]

Wrexham- Birkenhead/Liverpool indeed.
If it is safe enough where there are lots of people why is 3rd rail too dangerous modernly(?) where there are fewer people?

Fewer people correlate with fewer stops per mile (hence less noise and more speed), less robust fencing/walls and also with the presence of more wild animals and livestock that are potentially strays onto the line.

Safety measures that were good enough in days of yore no longer are, for various reasons. Urban routes tend to be sturdily fenced even for OHLE. In the end this makes overhead electrification cheaper than 3rd rail for rural routes but about the same as 3rd rail (or even more) for dense urban routes.

 

[Clip]

I don't think that it is because nobody cares but that the only way to extend in to the west end would be extensive tunnelling or lots of demolition of peoples homes. Both would be too expensive for the north east.

Funnily enough they have been tearing down parts of Benwell and Elswick in the past so I see now problem of doing it now. Bu tI see your point. Some thing has to be done though as they cant carry on just having bus services

 

[bluenoxid]

Funnily enough they have been tearing down parts of Benwell and Elswick in the past so I see now problem of doing it now. Bu tI see your point. Some thing has to be done though as they cant carry on just having bus services

Why???

The main issues for a north Tyne West extension would be bridging three roads. Tunneling from Gateshead would be very expensive. I did a research project a few years ago for uni and one of the ideas created for the Metro was Northumberland Park to the Metro Centre using the existing 25kV system that Heavy Rail uses and the network in place. It keeps stopping trains off the mainline and if trains can be timed appropriately, a half hourly service should not cause too many issues although it would affect freight.

I would probably push for a DMU service on the axis running towards Ashington but stopping at Palmersville instead. Palmersville would be easier to convert for a DMU stopping there.

The other option looked at was Newcastle to Washington but using Heavy Rail instead

 

[John55]

It would require a steeply graded approach i.e. embankment from the Brunswick side. Similar probably to the gradient which Valley Lines trains climb immediately east of Cardiff Central before crossing the South Wales main line.

Out of interest is the bridge on which the old LOR tunnel crosses the Hunts Cross line still extant?

Whilst not having tunnel dimensions the LOR trains seemed sizeable enough.

Reopening St. James is probably a much more realistic prospect.

It is possible to walk the whole length of the Dingle Tunnel so the two bridges over the CLC Tunnels are intact. However nothing heavier than a few pedestrians and some bits and pieces from the workshop have been over it for 56 years so goodness knows whether they are condition to carry any real weight.

The LOR trains were only 11 ft high but I don’t know if that translated into a smaller tunnel. The cars were wide at 9’ 6” max, but short at 45’ max.

Looking at a map or two it might actually be possible to put in a junction immediately south of Brunswick and a savage ramp and curve to get to the tunnel but I cannot see that the expense would be worth it.

St James would be a nightmare to reopen even I there was enough traffic to justify it. The platforms are short (from Google Earth about 75m) and terminate in tunnels at each end. Access from street level is about 40/50 feet straight down. Given there is a bus into town going past every minute or two what would be the point in reopening the station? It is centrally located 1100m from both Central and Brunswick.

Fewer people correlate with fewer stops per mile (hence less noise and more speed), less robust fencing/walls and also with the presence of more wild animals and livestock that are potentially strays onto the line.

Safety measures that were good enough in days of yore no longer are, for various reasons. Urban routes tend to be sturdily fenced even for OHLE. In the end this makes overhead electrification cheaper than 3rd rail for rural routes but about the same as 3rd rail (or even more) for dense urban routes.

Given the extensive 3rd rail operation in country areas of Britain I do not agree that there is a significant issue on safety grounds to the general public. Overhead electrification is generally cheaper because it requires less fixed plant. There is no need on rational safety grounds to have better fencing for an electrified railway but these things are not usually dealt with rationally.

 

[Scouseinmanc]

The St Werburgh's Road to Fallowfield item you mention would appear to be the old Fallowfield Loop Line. Has there ever been any recent discussions on the future strategic transportation use of of this once well-used South Manchester suburban railway?

Not to my knowledge Paul.

There have been quite a few posts on SSC in re. to it being reused. However, given that the route was rather circuitous & has since been built over at Fallowfield, there really isn't much justification for reopening.

 

[Eire Sprinter]

Thanks John55 for posting that interesting info.

 

[Requeststop]

Rather than electrifying all the way to Wrexham, I'd propose Bidston to Neston only. Two extra stations would be needed. One at woodchurch to cater for the expanded estate there and a new station about a mile to the south of Neston to provide a service to Little Neston and Ness. Looking at the area, there is land available to build decent stations there. The "Little Neston & Ness" station would be the terminus for Merseyrail, and the diesel service by ATW would ferry passengers from Wales to join the Merseyrail service around the Wirral Line loop to Liverpool.

Better minds than mine would be able to figure out how such a service would fit into the present West Kirkby and New Brighton schedules.

 

[DiscoSteve]

Not to my knowledge Paul.

There have been quite a few posts on SSC in re. to it being reused. However, given that the route was rather circuitous & has since been built over at Fallowfield, there really isn't much justification for reopening.

As a loop line to link SW and E/NE side of Metrolink I think it has value for journeys that don't start/end in City Centre - it is ONLY built over either side of Wilmslow Road and there is currently still, just, a way round - on SSC I posted a link to a current planning app which I think will block that workaround to the north of the original alignment - if anyone wants to help, go here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=92263724&postcount=4157 - planning app number is 098367/FO/2012/S1

 

[Gareth]

Rather than electrifying all the way to Wrexham, I'd propose Bidston to Neston only. Two extra stations would be needed. One at woodchurch to cater for the expanded estate there and a new station about a mile to the south of Neston to provide a service to Little Neston and Ness. Looking at the area, there is land available to build decent stations there. The "Little Neston & Ness" station would be the terminus for Merseyrail, and the diesel service by ATW would ferry passengers from Wales to join the Merseyrail service around the Wirral Line loop to Liverpool.

Better minds than mine would be able to figure out how such a service would fit into the present West Kirkby and New Brighton schedules.

Slightly more fanciful, but how about extend Merseyrail just to Woodchuch and have the Borderlands Line intechange there and then turn eastwards to a new high level station at Birkenhead Central, perhaps with an intermediate station at Oxton? It could make the line more useful and perhaps long distance services from South Wales could run. Would require a lot of demolition though; mostly of wealthy properties where the people insist on driving everywhere no matter what when and there would be uproar, but it'd be fun none the less.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Slightly more fanciful, but how about extend Merseyrail just to Woodchuch and have the Borderlands Line intechange there and then turn eastwards to a new high level station at Birkenhead Central, perhaps with an intermediate station at Oxton? It could make the line more useful and perhaps long distance services from South Wales could run. Would require a lot of demolition though; mostly of wealthy properties where the people insist on driving everywhere no matter what when and there would be uproar, but it'd be fun none the less.

"Fanciful" you may call this idea....others will have a different turn of phrase.

 

[HSTEd]

What about extending the Metro all the way to Middlesbrough, electrifying the entire route at 1500V? It would yield Monument-Middlesbrough travel times similar to those on the Metropolitan line from Amersham to Bakers street.

If so you might even be able to do a bit of 25kV infill to reach the joint track sections, thus permitting running dual voltage heavy rail services as well.

 

[142094]

1) Lack of rolling stock

2) Outside of Tyne and Wear, therefore would need co-operation with Durham County, Hartlepool, Stockton and Middlesbrough Councils.

3) A Metro service isn't designed to run on such a route.

 

[Holly]

Rather than electrifying all the way to Wrexham, I'd propose Bidston to Neston only. Two extra stations would be needed. One at woodchurch to cater for the expanded estate there and a new station about a mile to the south of Neston ... The "Little Neston & Ness" station would be the terminus for Merseyrail, and the diesel service by ATW ...

Definitely sub-optimal to turn trains back at Neston.

Once upon a time a chord (for freight trains) was proposed at Shotton. Constructing that would make it possible to electrify from Bidston, via Neston and Hawarden Bridge to Chester. Which gives a lot more travel possibilities.

Overhead electrification of course.

 

[Gareth]

"Fanciful" you may call this idea....others will have a different turn of phrase.

Such as yourself? Go on, don't leave me in suspense

 

[sprinterguy]

What about extending the Metro all the way to Middlesbrough, electrifying the entire route at 1500V? It would yield Monument-Middlesbrough travel times similar to those on the Metropolitan line from Amersham to Bakers street.

Good grief no, I think that it's bad enough that the service between Sunderland and Newcastle was "downgraded" from Pacers and Sprinters (At least Pacers have toilets, and the North East ones have had high back seats for the past 12 years or so) to the shake, rattle and roll Metrocars and their extended journey times (Although at least the coming of the Metro to Sunderland provided a massive increase in capacity between Sunderland and Newcastle that is very much used to the full). Let alone considering extending the Metro network to cover journeys of around 80 minutes from Newcastle to Middlesborough.

You can also add in all the major reasons that 142094 stated.

And what would become of the Durham Coasts' direct connections to the Tyne Valley line? So, no thanks to the idea of extending the Metro to Middlesborough. What would be far more welcome would be a second train per hour between Middlesborough, Sunderland and Newcastle, which would now be difficult to implement because the Metro has taken all the line capacity on the northern stretch :roll:

 

[Requeststop]

Definitely sub-optimal to turn trains back at Neston.

Once upon a time a chord (for freight trains) was proposed at Shotton. Constructing that would make it possible to electrify from Bidston, via Neston and Hawarden Bridge to Chester. Which gives a lot more travel possibilities.

Overhead electrification of course.

If you were proposing to run Bidston - Neston - Chester why go to Hawarden Bridge? Why not use the old alignment through Blacon into Chester? You used to be able to go Bidston-Chester direct as well as the present Bidston- Wrexham as well as Chester-Wrexham via Harwarden Bridge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Such as yourself? Go on, don't leave me in suspense

Had I wished to make a comment, I would have. It was yourself who used the word "fanciful" to describe your own posting. I was hoping to warn you that you may have elicted a response from other members, with the wording of the final part of your posting.

 

[PR1Berske]

Metrolink
Phase 9c(part ii)

Eccles
Parrin Lane
Worsley Interchange
Roe Green
Newearth
Mosley St John
Tyldesley Hough Lane
Tyldesley Elliot Street
Leigh Holden Road
Spinning Gate
Newlands Road
Bonnywell Road for Sports Village


Metrolink
Phase 21e (part v) (revision 2)
Roe Green
Walken South
Walken Hilton Lane
Clegg's Lane
Farnworth Plodder Lane

 

[OxtedL]

Had I wished to make a comment, I would have. It was yourself who used the word "fanciful" to describe your own posting. I was hoping to warn you that you may have elicted a response from other members, with the wording of the final part of your posting.

I doubt that this was really necessary though Paul; if people have something to say about a post they'll normally say it regardless.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I doubt that this was really necessary though Paul; if people have something to say about a post they'll normally say it regardless.

"Forewarned is forearmed" is a useful motto in life. Perhaps I am too considerate of other members feelings.

 

[OxtedL]

If we're all being completely honest with each other here Paul, I don't think anyone could possibly take the wildly unrealistic proposal as of genuine concern to their future expectations of continuing to live in a certain place or whatever.

On this basis then yes, I can see that you are going far too far out of your way in concern for potential offence. The suggestion could probably have been left alone and nothing more would have been said.

 

[Pen Mill]

Following on from the "Ghost train" thread , Ellesmere Port to Runcorn North sounds like madness.
The ELP-Helsby section has vitually no services with almost no passengers now. Electrification isn't going to change that.
Runcorn passengers can get onto the Merseyrail network at Liverpool South Parkway with a simple change .
I can't see even a seed of a business case here.

 

[Gareth]

Had I wished to make a comment, I would have. It was yourself who used the word "fanciful" to describe your own posting. I was hoping to warn you that you may have elicted a response from other members, with the wording of the final part of your posting.

Ah, okay. A bit disappointed but thanks for the heads up anyway.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Following on from the "Ghost train" thread , Ellesmere Port to Runcorn North sounds like madness.
The ELP-Helsby section has vitually no services with almost no passengers now. Electrification isn't going to change that.
Runcorn passengers can get onto the Merseyrail network at Liverpool South Parkway with a simple change .
I can't see even a seed of a business case here.

Consider why no-one uses the services at present? Then consider the catchment area for a direct service to Liverpool from Helsby (Frodsham, Kingsley, Manley, Alvanley, Norley, Sutton Weaver etc). The people who live in these areas commute to work in Manchester, Liverpool and elsewhere.
Consider a connection to Manchester from Helsby for people from Elton, E Port, Overpool, Little Sutton etc without first having to travel to Hooton then on to Chester.
With respect, I don't think you have put much effort into considering potential business cases. It may be unviable, it may be completly viable. With Wirral Waters and Liverpool Waters on the horizon, who knows whether the people from these areas would work their. But your claim that electrification won't change anything is open to challenge.