Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Bletchleyite]

You can pay that, or you can pay £110 each way less by choosing a ticket from London to [station just outside the trial but near Newcastle].

Splits at Durham also come up cheaper. It is most interesting that LNER's app which used to offer splits isn't doing - gives credence to the "Trainline is cheaper" idea because today it is by a significant margin on near enough every train.

I totally get the "walk up off peaks are complex" argument, but this is yet another example of why the purpose of this is to crank fares up by a very significant margin. And yet they seem to be getting away with it in publicity terms - there was a flurry at the start but it's just hidden in the "trains are a bit expensive" bracket now despite these ones being a lot more expensive than most others.

I think it's half term in some places this week - I guess we can add LNER to the list of half term profiteers!

Moving into speculative territory, but I wonder how short of a journey LNER would decide should be under the new system. I suspect they'd want to move King's Cross – York / Darlington over; would off-peak fares for e.g. London – Newark or Peterborough – York stay for long?

Given that Northern like Advances for very short journeys, my suspicion is that the aim is to move absolutely everything over to it other than those journeys that sit within a contactless payment zone (is Stevenage-London in Oval?). Though the impact of it on non-London journeys is a bit lower as Anytimes are typically not so punitively priced (which is why the splits work and will continue to work even after Off Peaks are all binned).

It has been suggested before that two other trials of this or something similar to it on shorter journeys are coming up in the next year or so on other TOCs. The poster who said this (who is fairly credible) didn't identify the TOCs (aside from to say that it wasn't XC) but it sounded like one would be TPE and another Avanti, and my guess would be London-Manchester (a medium route) and Manchester-Leeds (a shortish route) as the routes. Northern are effectively already trialling it for very short journeys and have been for years, and someone in another thread suggested they have also quietly dropped a few Off Peaks so the full thing is being trialled, though I don't know where and would be interested if anyone can give examples of where they have done so.

 

[Krokodil]

I think it's half term in some places this week - I guess we can add LNER to the list of half term profiteers!

But you just know that any comparisons with airlines will involve a flight in deepest November

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you just know that any comparisons with airlines will involve a flight in deepest November

Just because airlines are at it (and having looked BA very much is today!) doesn't mean railways should be, particularly not as railways receive taxpayer funding. Though I suppose one could argue that the purpose of this is to increase fare income on LNER so it can become fully commercial?

Though it is worth bearing in mind that London to Newcastle is a bit far for most to drive. Once the car properly comes into it (e.g. on mid-length routes like London-Manchester, Leeds or Bristol), then surely people will just drive? And if pricing works such that not pre planning something like Leighton Buzzard to Milton Keynes* becomes swingeingly expensive, those trains are going to be very empty - who does this on regional services the world over? Now it is true that charging one person £500 makes more money than charging ten people £40, but I start to resent my tax money going into that rather than a system that's priced to be accessible to all.

* Yes I know it's the Project Oval area once it's finished, but that's just an example.

 

[Krokodil]

Just because airlines are at it (and having looked BA very much is today!) doesn't mean railways should be

Oh I agree, it's no way for an environmentally-friendly public service to behave, if I were in government fares regulation would have some proper teeth. My point was that the media (and others) will spin it as "look, this rail ticket [for walk-up travel on any train] is more expensive than this plane ticket [booked well in advance for a really quiet time of the year].

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh I agree, it's no way for an environmentally-friendly public service to behave, if I were in government fares regulation would have some proper teeth. My point was that the media (and others) will spin it as "look, this rail ticket [for walk-up travel on any train] is more expensive than this plane ticket [booked well in advance for a really quiet time of the year].

That's forever been thus, comparing for instance London-Manchester Anytime Returns (which are ludicrously priced, and will, if not reduced, mean this scheme is far more dangerous on the WCML than the ECML*) with air fares booked 6 months in advance.

* I mean, I can almost cope with the idea that a premium fully flexible ticket from London to Edinburgh should cost £200, but not that one for half the distance should cost anywhere near that.

 

[AdamWW]

That's forever been thus, comparing for instance London-Manchester Anytime Returns (which are ludicrously priced, and will, if not reduced, mean this scheme is far more dangerous on the WCML than the ECML*) with air fares booked 6 months in advance.

And these comparisons almost invaritably start by looking at routes that airlines fly and then comparing with rail tickets for the same journey, without considering the many journeys possible by rail that don't have airports anywhere near one or both ends.

 

[A S Leib]

* I mean, I can almost cope with the idea that a premium fully flexible ticket from London to Edinburgh should cost £200, but not that one for half the distance should cost anywhere near that.

I think driving from London – Edinburgh ~£65 each way in petrol, so around the same cost as the previous super off-peak singles with a railcard, which seems reasonable.

As well as the difference between ECML and WCML prices, I also don't get why there's such a big jump for anytime fares; £64 vs £136 for East Croydon – Edinburgh with a railcard, for example, when I'd suspect that enough people doing a journey of that length are staying overnight that there's less need to limit demand for peak services anyway.

And these comparisons almost invaritably start by looking at routes that airlines fly and then comparing with rail tickets for the same journey, without considering the many journeys possible by rail that don't have airports anywhere near one or both ends.

Agreed; whilst not all journeys start / finish in city centres, that's true of airports as well. Without being able to drive and without relying on coaches, it's easier to get from Hemel Hempstead to Watford Junction (one bus) or Milton Keynes Central than to any airport, especially as only Gatwick and Luton of the relatively nearby ones don't mean passing through either of the intercity stations anyway.

 

[Haywain]

Agreed; whilst not all journeys start / finish in city centres, that's true of airports as well. Without being able to drive and without relying on coaches, it's easier to get from Hemel Hempstead to Watford Junction (one bus) or Milton Keynes Central than to any airport, especially as only Gatwick and Luton of the relatively nearby ones don't mean passing through either of the intercity stations anyway.

Except most of the time when the comparison with air travel is made, it is the cost of a flight to Spain, booked several months ahead, against the cost of a train ticket to York on the day of travel! The proximity of airport or station to final destination is another matter entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As well as the difference between ECML and WCML prices, I also don't get why there's such a big jump for anytime fares; £64 vs £136 for East Croydon – Edinburgh with a railcard, for example, when I'd suspect that enough people doing a journey of that length are staying overnight that there's less need to limit demand for peak services anyway.

Part of the argument for the scheme was that it would allow peak-off peak to naturally balance itself based on actual demand - you can see that it would make sense for Friday evening/Sunday afternoon to be more expensive on this sort of route, for instance. But I've been having periodic looks at it and alongside the graph in this month's Modern Railways it (badly) veils a general fare increase of between 20 and 100% depending which times of day. It doesn't appear, and the graph seems to confirm, that any tickets are cheaper than before, which means LNER have lied about it.

The traditional peak/off peak differential was really based around charging business travellers a fortune as they'd pay whatever as they weren't funding it. But it falsely assumes all leisure journeys can be booked months in advance.

Agreed; whilst not all journeys start / finish in city centres, that's true of airports as well. Without being able to drive and without relying on coaches, it's easier to get from Hemel Hempstead to Watford Junction (one bus) or Milton Keynes Central than to any airport, especially as only Gatwick and Luton of the relatively nearby ones don't mean passing through either of the intercity stations anyway.

Most adults who are going to be taking slighly pricey train trips to Edinburgh do drive (indeed a very large number of them will drive to the station for train trips like these rather than letting the ilkes of WMT and Northern muck up their local connection), and there's no reason not to use coaches to get to airports if they are the most expedient method.

 

[AdamWW]

Except most of the time when the comparison with air travel is made, it is the cost of a flight to Spain, booked several months ahead, against the cost of a train ticket to York on the day of travel! The proximity of airport or station to final destination is another matter entirely.

We perhaps get our information from different places.

Most of what I've seen has been comparing the costs of the same domestic UK journey by air and rail.

 

[miklcct]

We perhaps get our information from different places.

Most of what I've seen has been comparing the costs of the same domestic UK journey by air and rail.

Are they comparing the costs for taking the next immediately available train / flight?

 

[Bletchleyite]

We perhaps get our information from different places.

Most of what I've seen has been comparing the costs of the same domestic UK journey by air and rail.

You get both. But even this one has false comparisons- stuff like Ryanair 3 months in advance vs. an Anytime Single.

The only possible outcome (for me) of this scheme, as I don't plan things months in advance, is a lot more car trips and a lot fewer rail ones. I'm not, as has been noted completely, totally opposed to things like compulsory reservations, as they do have some benefits, but not being able to, for a reasonable price, shift my train earlier/later on the day (by potentially a lot more than 70 minutes*) is just going to put me off.

* For instance, you wake up Sunday morning in the Lakes and the weather is terrible so you sack off the day's hillwalking and want to go home - that'll mean 6-8 hours earlier, not 70 minutes.

 

[paul1609]

Agreed; whilst not all journeys start / finish in city centres, that's true of airports as well. Without being able to drive and without relying on coaches, it's easier to get from Hemel Hempstead to Watford Junction (one bus) or Milton Keynes Central than to any airport, especially as only Gatwick and Luton of the relatively nearby ones don't mean passing through either of the intercity stations anyway.

If you look at journeys originating south of the Thames which is a significant proportion of the market compared to those living in the WCML and ECML corridors I'd sugggest that Gatwick, Heathrow, London City, and Stansted (marginal) are all as easy to get to when compared to a cross london Terminals journey. The minimum connection time in london in many cases also helps to negate the airport check in allowance. Not only are an awful lot of journeys not city centre to city centre there are an awful lot that are nowhere near either city centre. Edinburgh Airport for instance is much better placed than Waverley for a huge part of the Central Belt and the East Coast Corridor right up to Aberdeen.

 

[800Travel]

Today almost every train between London and Newcastle in both directions is Anytime only if you use LNER's app. The only Advances are splits aside from one or two trains.

Definitely a fare increase trial. That's a fare increase of over 100% for any walk up passenger today at what would have been off peak times.

I'd thought this would just be to do with the cancelled engineering work? Could explain no advances, but not no off peak I suppose.

 

[AdamWW]

I'd thought this would just be to do with the cancelled engineering work? Could explain no advances, but not no off peak I suppose.

But there aren't any off peak fares for London to Newcastle any more, are there?

 

[800Travel]

But there aren't any off peak fares for London to Newcastle any more, are there?

Apologies - I wasn't referring to London to Newcastle specifically - just the lack of advances/off peak fares on a different route I had been looking at with LNER.

 

[Kite159]

I'd thought this would just be to do with the cancelled engineering work? Could explain no advances, but not no off peak I suppose.

Isn't the cancelled engineering works next weekend?

 

[800Travel]

Isn't the cancelled engineering works next weekend?

Latest Travel updates

Stay updated with the latest LNER train information and sign up for travel alerts here.

www.lner.co.uk

CANCELLED: Engineering work between York and Newcastle on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 October​

Engineering work scheduled to take place between York and Darlington has been cancelled, and will not take place.
CrossCountry, Grand Central, Lumo and TransPennine Express trains between York and Darlington / Newcastle will run as normal.

LNER:​

LNER will operate 1 train per hour between London King's Cross and the Newcastle / Scotland, calling at York. Some services between London and Scotland will run between London and Newcastle.
1 train per hour will run between London Kings Cross and York.
A limited rail replacement coach service will be provided between York and Darlington plus York and Newcastle, operating on late Saturday / Sunday evening and early on Sunday morning.
Check before you travel:
The Journey Planner has been amended to reflect the cancellation of the engineering work. To find options for your journey, please use the National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner

There is also cancelled engineering next weekend too:

Planned engineering on 26/27 October and 2/3 November between York and Northallerton

Engineering work was scheduled to take place between York and Northallerton on the following weekends:

• Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 October
• Saturday 2 and Sunday 3 November

This work is no longer place. However, an amended and reduced timetable will remain in place on these dates, although services which would have used a diversionary route around York station will now call at York. As a result, most bus and coach replacement services will no longer be running. Further information can be found on our Timetables and Engineering page here.
Please check your journey before you travel using our Journey Planner tool, which has been updated with the latest train times.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've just discovered that LNER have made some further changes recently, further reducing customer flexibility.

It used to be possible to purchase a ticket between Enfield Stations (Enfield Chase or Enfield Town) or Hertford Stations (Hertford East or Hertford North) and LNER destinations.

At some point after the September fares change, that has been eliminated and you can now only buy to/from a specific Enfield or Hertford station.

Chances are that other station groups are affected, but those are the only two I've checked as they're ones that directly affect me.

 

[miklcct]

I've just discovered that LNER have made some further changes recently, further reducing customer flexibility.

It used to be possible to purchase a ticket between Enfield Stations (Enfield Chase or Enfield Town) or Hertford Stations (Hertford East or Hertford North) and LNER destinations.

At some point after the September fares change, that has been eliminated and you can now only buy to/from a specific Enfield or Hertford station.

Chances are that other station groups are affected, but those are the only two I've checked as they're ones that directly affect me.

Buying from West Hampstead Stations remains available.

Are there any fixed links between the stations you need which you can take advantage of?

 

[yorksrob]

LNER have become the vampire squid of the railway.

 

[Kite159]

I've just discovered that LNER have made some further changes recently, further reducing customer flexibility.

It used to be possible to purchase a ticket between Enfield Stations (Enfield Chase or Enfield Town) or Hertford Stations (Hertford East or Hertford North) and LNER destinations.

At some point after the September fares change, that has been eliminated and you can now only buy to/from a specific Enfield or Hertford station.

Chances are that other station groups are affected, but those are the only two I've checked as they're ones that directly affect me.

Probably to make things 'simpler' considering the majority of customers from Enfield heading to a LNER destination will be using Enfield Chase [or Hertford North if in Hertford]. Unless you are suggesting you could previously get a ticket from Hertford East/Enfield Town into London with a cross London transfer to start the LNER at Kings Cross, rather than changing at Stevenage/Peterborough

 

[yorkie]

Making things "simple" means restricting what passengers can do.

Being "simple" is spun as if it's a positive thing, when really it's all about reducing passenger rights, options and and flexibilities, while increasing LNER's revenues.

A passenger with a more "simple" ticket has fewer options, and has to hope or beg for "ticket acceptance" when things go wrong.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Making things "simple" means restricting what passengers can do.

Being "simple" is spun as if it's a positive thing, when really it's all about reducing passenger rights, options and and flexibilities, while increasing LNER's revenues.

A passenger with a more "simple" ticket has fewer options, and has to hope or beg for "ticket acceptance" when things go wrong.

Or know the NrCot like the back of their hand and hope the guard walks away when your deep in section 28.2,

This LNER trail has been causing me headaches as I want to do the Northumberland line when it opens, quick question who's pricing those, I presume northern?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Probably to make things 'simpler' considering the majority of customers from Enfield heading to a LNER destination will be using Enfield Chase [or Hertford North if in Hertford]. Unless you are suggesting you could previously get a ticket from Hertford East/Enfield Town into London with a cross London transfer to start the LNER at Kings Cross, rather than changing at Stevenage/Peterborough

More so for the Enfield pair than Hertford, but also helpful for those starting from South of those points where there's a choice of a West Anglia or Great Northern Inner station when heading towards Kings Cross. Particularly given GTR are still only running 2tph on the Hertford Loop off-peak and at weekends, rather than the 4tph pre-pandemic.

Whilst you might be aiming for a specific train from Kings Cross, how you get there could depend on something as simple as which bus turns up first, in addition to how services are running on the respective routes. Risking having to stand for the LNER leg due to not being able to buy a ticket until you're en route as a result of this change is a poor customer experience.

 

[A S Leib]

This LNER trail has been causing me headaches as I want to do the Northumberland line when it opens, quick question who's pricing those, I presume northern?

Newcastle – Sunderland's priced by the Tyne & Wear PTE, although from the sounds of Northumberland County Council it is Northern setting fares (I know Ashington's Northumberland and Sunderland's Tyne & Wear).

 

[Bikeman78]

Probably to make things 'simpler' considering the majority of customers from Enfield heading to a LNER destination will be using Enfield Chase [or Hertford North if in Hertford]. Unless you are suggesting you could previously get a ticket from Hertford East/Enfield Town into London with a cross London transfer to start the LNER at Kings Cross, rather than changing at Stevenage/Peterborough

At first glance, the stations on the Hertford loop seem the obvious choice. However, relatively few LNER trains stop at Stevenage. Heading to King's Cross is about the same from either of the Enfield stations.

 

[mad_rich]

Newcastle – Sunderland's priced by the Tyne & Wear PTE, although from the sounds of Northumberland County Council it is Northern setting fares (I know Ashington's Northumberland and Sunderland's Tyne & Wear).

I don't know if it's related to who is pricing it, but I believe all the Northumberland Line stations will be available from Metro ticket machines and POP PAYG, with the creation of a new Metro Zone D.

Integrated Fares for Metro & Northumberland Line

The Northumberland Line Fares will have two options as we'll have integrated fares with Metro via their Pop Cards and customers will also be able to buy rail only tickets for travel on the line and onto the national rail network.Our integrated fares with Metro were agreed by the Joint Transport...

www.northumberlandline.uk

 

[A S Leib]

I don't know if it's related to who is pricing it, but I believe all the Northumberland Line stations will be available from Metro ticket machines and POP PAYG, with the creation of a new Metro Zone D.

Integrated Fares for Metro & Northumberland Line

The Northumberland Line Fares will have two options as we'll have integrated fares with Metro via their Pop Cards and customers will also be able to buy rail only tickets for travel on the line and onto the national rail network.Our integrated fares with Metro were agreed by the Joint Transport...

www.northumberlandline.uk

I wonder if Durham / Morpeth – Newcastle (and Seaham, Hexham etc.) at a minimum will end up covered by POP as well. The Oyster weekly cap for Zones 1-9 is £106 and a weekly Berwick – Newcastle season ticket is £135, so I wouldn't be surprised if it does end up covering the entire North East eventually.

 

[FenMan]

I wonder if Durham / Morpeth – Newcastle (and Seaham, Hexham etc.) at a minimum will end up covered by POP as well. The Oyster weekly cap for Zones 1-9 is £106 and a weekly Berwick – Newcastle season ticket is £135, so I wouldn't be surprised if it does end up covering the entire North East eventually.

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and, a fair few times, the off peak single from my local station in the southeast has been significantly cheaper than the cheapest on the day Advance on offer for passengers starting at King's Cross. Erm, just buy the off peak ticket then.

LNER is not an airline. Yes, London - Edinburgh and - Newcastle are big flows, but how many start or end their journeys at King's Cross or even in the Oyster zone? Far fewer than LNER would like to think. LNER would need DafT to give them carte blanche to abolish all off peak walk-up fares from all over south east England to get control, interfering with other TOCs' Advances quota management for their own flows. Hmm, that's complicated.