Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[mcmad]

Rutherglen to carstairs has flat crossings at Newton, Uddingston, Motherwell, shieldmuir, law and lanark. The 400 figure is what the current estimate for HS2 is. Finding a clear route from Rutherglen isn't going to be easy or cheap as thers not much that has a suitable alignment for high speed. Would a better option be reinstating 4 tracks north from uddingston and from Sheildmuir into Motherwell with grade separated junctions at Law and Sheildmuir. Not sure much could be done at motherwell or uddingston and Newton isnt as much of a problem since the links were double tracked.

 

[backontrack]

They misspelt 'Waverley' on that graphic!

Otherwise, it's nice work by them.

 

[najaB]

The 400 figure is what the current estimate for HS2 is.

That is a very simplistic calculation - take cost of Phase 1 and divide by the length of track. Problem is, that includes the cost of rebuilding Euston, new station in Birmingham, etc.

The actual track cost is going to be under £50M/mile, I would be surprised if it's much over £25M/mile for new build in open countryside.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Rutherglen to carstairs has flat crossings at Newton, Uddingston, Motherwell, shieldmuir, law and lanark. The 400 figure is what the current estimate for HS2 is. Finding a clear route from Rutherglen isn't going to be easy or cheap as thers not much that has a suitable alignment for high speed. Would a better option be reinstating 4 tracks north from uddingston and from Sheildmuir into Motherwell with grade separated junctions at Law and Sheildmuir. Not sure much could be done at motherwell or uddingston and Newton isnt as much of a problem since the links were double tracked.

As soon as you're touching the existing railway the costs skyrocket. This is what Network Rail and the DfT have been finding out to their cost over the past several years. A totally new line might look excessive but it massively simplifies the job - e.g. you can work year-round rather than scheduling everything for specific bank holiday or seasonal blockades.

The Greengauge 21 report seems to neglect a very important thing. There's simply no point spending billions on cutting minutes off journey times when trains will end up queuing to get through Haymarket. The biggest consistent peak-time journey time savings can be made by bypassing the busiest sections of track. The basic concept of a new line into Glasgow does that quite well - it would rejoin the Central approach tracks after Rutherglen so that there wouldn't be any conflicting movements or slow services in the way. For Edinburgh the only way to do it would be to build a third pair of heavy rail tracks heading westwards from Waverley. It would be a big job but it would be transformational, enabling significant numbers of new local and regional services to run. A tunnel from Princes Street Gardens out to the City Bypass, with an interchange station at Edinburgh Park, would make all sorts of InterCity services more useful. Sure, you'd lose out on a Haymarket call, but for the wider city region having the second Edinburgh station accessible directly from the trunk road network would be a huge boon. Someone living in Prestonpans might be able to get a heavy rail train into Waverley and then change onto an express service, but someone living out in (say) Loanhead would be stuck on the roads heading into the very centre of the city.

Such a tunnel would definitely take all Edinburgh-Carlisle express traffic, and future Edinburgh to Glasgow expresses too. Whether it would be useful to add a chord up to the Fife lines would be another question. The western tunnel wouldn't be able to call at Haymarket, and that's going to be a more useful destination for internal Scottish traffic than it is for Anglo-Scottish. The E&G services would lose out Haymarket but gain a stop at the bypass for the various business development areas from Edinburgh Park up to the Airport, would have a faster and more reliable route into Waverley for the city centre, and there would still be plenty of regional services still calling there so it balances out.

 

[Altnabreac]

Rutherglen to carstairs has flat crossings at Newton, Uddingston, Motherwell, shieldmuir, law and lanark. The 400 figure is what the current estimate for HS2 is. Finding a clear route from Rutherglen isn't going to be easy or cheap as thers not much that has a suitable alignment for high speed. Would a better option be reinstating 4 tracks north from uddingston and from Sheildmuir into Motherwell with grade separated junctions at Law and Sheildmuir. Not sure much could be done at motherwell or uddingston and Newton isnt as much of a problem since the links were double tracked.

Plus 2 at Carstairs, a second Motherwell Junction, 2 at Rutherglen, Freight terminals at Shieldmuir and Ravenstruther. Widening on an online alignment would be a terrible and expensive idea.

 

[JohnR]

Any news on the plans to reopen Craigo signal box for the increased services into Aberdeen? I had applied for the vacancy, but NR have now withdrawn it.

 

[Highlandspring]

No change as far as I am aware, Craigo and Greenloaning still required to be open. At least one of the Craigo jobs has gone to an internal candidate.

 

[DuncanS]

Falkirk Herald has an update on what is happening in the reinstate Bonnybridge station campaign -

https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/new...back-bonnybridge-station-heating-up-1-4771578

A group which aims to re-establish a train station has appointed the consultancy firm members believe can help them achieve their aim. Reinstate Bonnybridge Railway Station (RBRS) has teamed up with the Scottish Community Development Centre (SCDC) to collate information for a report which will gauge public opinion on the proposal.Bryan Deakin, RBRS convener, said: “SCDC’s core vision is for an active, inclusive and just Scotland where our communities are strong, equitable and sustainable. We are thrilled to be working with them.”

Not really much actual news but nice that they are at least looking to see if the station is actually needed.

 

[gsnedders]

Falkirk Herald has an update on what is happening in the reinstate Bonnybridge station campaign -

A group which aims to re-establish a train station has appointed the consultancy firm members believe can help them achieve their aim. Reinstate Bonnybridge Railway Station (RBRS) has teamed up with the Scottish Community Development Centre (SCDC) to collate information for a report which will gauge public opinion on the proposal.Bryan Deakin, RBRS convener, said: “SCDC’s core vision is for an active, inclusive and just Scotland where our communities are strong, equitable and sustainable. We are thrilled to be working with them.”

Not really much actual news but nice that they are at least looking to see if the station is actually needed.

Presumably the old Bonnybridge High Station, located here.

 

[The_Engineer]

Presumably the old Bonnybridge High Station, located here.

I'd imagine that a station on the lower line would be more likely to proceed as:
1. There would be reluctance to stop the faster via Falkirk High services, as it will extend the end to end timings.
2. The lower line give better local connectivity (central Falkirk, Cumbernauld and onward to Stirling)

 

[InOban]

There's no way they would build on the High line. On the other hand, the Lower line is on too steep a gradient for a station...

 

[och aye]

As I understand, stations at Reston, East Linton, Dalcross, Winchburgh, Robroyston & Auchenback/Barrhead would all be part of CP6 if funding is approved. Are there any other proposed stations to open within CP6 that I've missed out?

 

[Stopper]

I think you’re missing Kintore, it and Dalcross seem the most likely to open soon. Winchburgh would be a very useful station to open and I don’t think Reston/East Linton are too far off either.

 

[AndrewE]

There's no way they would build on the High line. On the other hand, the Lower line is on too steep a gradient for a station...

With modern traction and braking is a gradient really a deal-breaker for a station location?
I thought the Liverpool Northern line was to have a new station on the climb out from Moorfields, was it on Leeds St bank?

 

[InOban]

I'm sure it's perfectly fine with modern traction, but rules are rules and it's quite possible that ORR/NR still insist on stations where the track is near enough flat.

 

[Highlandspring]

rules are rules and it's quite possible that ORR/NR still insist on stations where the track is near enough flat.

As Wikipedia would put it.. [citation neeeded]

 

[edwin_m]

HMRI has historically preferred no steeper than 1 in 500 for stations where the crew may leave the train, but there are plenty of stations on steeper gradients. There was a RSSB study a few years ago which listed most of them and found no particular safety issue with having a station on a gradient - but life's too short to hack through the twin online thickets of rail standards and the RSSB research programme to get citations.

 

[Aictos]

I think you’re missing Kintore, it and Dalcross seem the most likely to open soon. Winchburgh would be a very useful station to open and I don’t think Reston/East Linton are too far off either.

Both East Linton and Reston are meant to be reopened as part of the local North Berwick services as of Dec 2016 as proposed by a study in 2013 however I believe this will now start in Dec 2018 due to lack of rolling stock.

However while I back the proposal to reopen East Linton, I don't support the same proposal for Reston for two reasons:

1. Dunbar is a acceptable railhead for Reston as local buses take about 46 mins, trains could do that in half the time.

2. I believe that the second platform at Dunbar MUST take priority over any reopening of Reston and indeed must be operational before Reston even sees construction.

The second platform at Dunbar must also see the reinstatement of the northbound loop that was ripped up by BR.

As to Winchburgh, what services would call there?

 

[Highlandspring]

2. I believe that the second platform at Dunbar MUST take priority over any reopening of Reston and indeed must be operational before Reston even sees construction.

It will.

The second platform at Dunbar must also see the reinstatement of the northbound loop that was ripped up by BR.

It won’t.

 

[Steamysandy]

The bus service between Dunbar and Reston has recently been cut back by 50 % meaning poorer connections.
I believe passengers from Reston would in the main be travelling to Edinburgh and beyond and Berwickshire will eventually be the outer side of the Edinburgh Suburban area and are unlikely to want to use the bus

 

[railjock]

The bus service between Dunbar and Reston has recently been cut back by 50 % meaning poorer connections.
I believe passengers from Reston would in the main be travelling to Edinburgh and beyond and Berwickshire will eventually be the outer side of the Edinburgh Suburban area and are unlikely to want to use the bus

Correct. The Edinburgh city region gets bigger and bigger. Reston will become a Railhead for the Eastern Borders with connections to Edinburgh and Berwick.

 

[Stopper]

Both East Linton and Reston are meant to be reopened as part of the local North Berwick services as of Dec 2016 as proposed by a study in 2013 however I believe this will now start in Dec 2018 due to lack of rolling stock.

However while I back the proposal to reopen East Linton, I don't support the same proposal for Reston for two reasons:

1. Dunbar is a acceptable railhead for Reston as local buses take about 46 mins, trains could do that in half the time.

2. I believe that the second platform at Dunbar MUST take priority over any reopening of Reston and indeed must be operational before Reston even sees construction.

The second platform at Dunbar must also see the reinstatement of the northbound loop that was ripped up by BR.

As to Winchburgh, what services would call there?

Winchburgh would get 2tph on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Cumbernauld services.

I personally disagree with these services and would rather the Dunblane remained a stopper, or extra Stirling services were created. Winchburgh certainly deserves a station and I do feel it would be slightly wasted on the Cumbernauld empties.

 

[Steamysandy]

I should explain.
I currently live 200 yards from Longniddry station and I previously lived within 2 miles of East Linton.In addition I had a cousin who lived next to the line at Reston.and trying to get from here to Reston without a car was a nightmare but additional stopping services to Dunbar from here would be a help.Public transport between the North Berwick and Dunbar corridors is very poor at present

 

[InOban]

The problem with Reston is finding paths for such an outer suburban service. We already have a halfhourly LNER services, and an XC service every hour, and now TPE want to run through to Edinburgh as well. At the very least you would need to rebuild Berwick into two islands, possibly with a terminating bay as well. And it's planned to run intermodal trains to Mossend up the ECML.

The second platform for Dunbar will be on the down main. I think they might as well build one on the up main also, and use the loop platform as a terminator.

 

[Steamysandy]

The problem with Reston is finding paths for such an outer suburban service. We already have a halfhourly LNER services, and an XC service every hour, and now TPE want to run through to Edinburgh as well. At the very least you would need to rebuild Berwick into two islands, possibly with a terminating bay as well. And it's planned to run intermodal trains to Mossend up the ECML.

The second platform for Dunbar will be on the down main. I think they might as well build one on the up main also, and use the loop platform as a terminator.

As I've argued elsewhere regarding using the 365s for an outer suburban service,do we need a TPE service from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh North of Newcastle? Personally I don't think so

 

[snowball]

As I've argued elsewhere regarding using the 365s for an outer suburban service,do we need a TPE service from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh North of Newcastle? Personally I don't think so

I think the TPE service that is proposed to run to Edinburgh via the ECML is from Liverpool, not Manchester Airport. Not a very sensible route for end-to-end traffic, I would have thought, but perhaps it's justified by intermediate traffic.

 

[Altnabreac]

Winchburgh would get 2tph on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Cumbernauld services.

I personally disagree with these services and would rather the Dunblane remained a stopper, or extra Stirling services were created. Winchburgh certainly deserves a station and I do feel it would be slightly wasted on the Cumbernauld empties.

I understand the most recent thinking is that Winchburgh will get calls in the Dunblane services rather than the Cumbernauld as that fits in with the express E-G services better.

 

[Altnabreac]

As I understand, stations at Reston, East Linton, Dalcross, Winchburgh, Robroyston & Auchenback/Barrhead would all be part of CP6 if funding is approved. Are there any other proposed stations to open within CP6 that I've missed out?

I think you’re missing Kintore, it and Dalcross seem the most likely to open soon. Winchburgh would be a very useful station to open and I don’t think Reston/East Linton are too far off either.

As well as Kintore the other possible CP6 station is Dundee West. Depends on the new semi fast service from Glasgow to Perth starting and may get caught up in controversy over whether it should replace Invergowrie or be in addition to it.

 

[Stopper]

I understand the most recent thinking is that Winchburgh will get calls in the Dunblane services rather than the Cumbernauld as that fits in with the express E-G services better.

This is even more bizarre now

The Cumbernauld services will be stoppers apart from Winchburgh, but the Dunblanes will skip out Linlithgow & Polmont, but continue to call at Winchburgh and Camelon

Bizarre calling patterns, and also slows the Dunblanes back down.

 

[Altnabreac]

This is even more bizarre now

The Cumbernauld services will be stoppers apart from Winchburgh, but the Dunblanes will skip out Linlithgow & Polmont, but continue to call at Winchburgh and Camelon

Bizarre calling patterns, and also slows the Dunblanes back down.

I believe the Dunblanes will have the Winchburgh stop allowance in the timetable from day one even if Winchburgh is not open. It's just the best way to fit all the stops in.