Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[Stopper]

I think that would be a much better option than sticking another 2tph pointless service through Newbridge Jn, which will only affect both services in a bad way.

 

[Altnabreac]

2tph slightly longer trains would be a benefit if the 8-car 365 and 7-car 380s and 385s weren’t already full and standing most mornings.

People keep saying the Edinburgh service from Cumbernauld will now be quieter, but it will also likely be a single unit most of the time. Linlithgow-Edinburgh could pack out a 385 on it’s own in the mornings, while Dunblane will get 6-car services which will be much emptier than usual due to these passengers not being on that service.

I think that would be a much better option than sticking another 2tph pointless service through Newbridge Jn, which will only affect both services in a bad way.

You can’t claim the new service will be totally full of just Linlithgow commuters and totally pointless. Pick one or the other. Given the new service hasn’t started running yet we’ll have to wait and see how it fares through Newbridge but it looks like a step in the right direction to me. If it doesn’t work then it will get withdrawn.

 

[Stopper]

You can’t claim the new service will be totally full of just Linlithgow commuters and totally pointless. Pick one or the other. Given the new service hasn’t started running yet we’ll have to wait and see how it fares through Newbridge but it looks like a step in the right direction to me. If it doesn’t work then it will get withdrawn.

The service is totally pointless in the Wesbound direction, for the most part. There’s not much argument against this.

 

[Chrism20]

You agree that it needs a better service but you are happy to advocate an inferior one for the forseeable future. Seems barking to me.

The new trains have significantly better acceleration than the 170s. Why can't the Dunblanes stop at Polmont and Linlithgow while still delivering a faster service Dunblane - Edinburgh?

This is clearly being done to help reduce the chronic overcrowding on services to/from Edinburgh to these two stations whilst at the same time the Stirling passengers benefit - to the vast majority of passengers on the line of it works it will be a win.

The average passenger from Polmont and Linlithgow couldn’t give a toss where the train has come from or where it is going after they board/alight and I’d imagine as @Altnabreac has already pointed out they would prefer boarding the quieter and extended glasgow/grahamston service rather than try and cram onto the Dunblane one.

Why they haven’t gone for keeping the current set up and adding a fast Stirling on top I don’t know, maybe the passenger numbers don’t justify a fast service and a stopper to Stirling which is why it’s being dropped in favour of the fast service and only the Polmont/Linlithgow to Larbert and beyond (ie the minority) passengers being disrupted

As for Newbridge junction I agree it will be interesting to see if and how it works. We can only assume that the planners have checked and checked again that it is doable. If it doesn’t we have our own version of the thameslink/Northern shambles and it adds pressure to build that chord.

I’d imagine though after the northern and thameslink debacles there will be more focus on the proposed changes and possibly an emergency plan in place if the worst happens in order to recover the service quickly.

Re the 385s I’d have probably went for all 4/8 car workings along that corridor but that’s probably for another thread.

 

[Stopper]

The Dunblane’s aren’t as busy as most people on here would love to suggest. Yes they’re mostly full once they leave Linlithgow, but with 6-car 385s they’d be absolutely fine. They should have kept the service as a stopper, with increased acceleration making the journey faster.

Adding another 2tph that will likely be a 3-car 385, which will likely be the first to be canned/scrapped/held at Newbridge Junction during any disruption, with absolutely no end-to-end purpose, and taking away some important links, is an absolute disaster for Linlithgow/Polmont. It’s okay to rightly criticise ScotRail sometimes, you know.

 

[InOban]

For perfectly understandable operational reasons, they have joined up two separate services. Anyone travelling to Cumbernauld from the East is a bonus.

 

[Carntyne]

The Dunblane’s aren’t as busy as most people on here would love to suggest. Yes they’re mostly full once they leave Linlithgow, but with 6-car 385s they’d be absolutely fine. They should have kept the service as a stopper, with increased acceleration making the journey faster.

Adding another 2tph that will likely be a 3-car 385, which will likely be the first to be canned/scrapped/held at Newbridge Junction during any disruption, with absolutely no end-to-end purpose, and taking away some important links, is an absolute disaster for Linlithgow/Polmont. It’s okay to rightly criticise ScotRail sometimes, you know.

Adding additional opportunities to travel and boosting capacity is a disaster for Linlithgow? That's a new one on me.

You mention the "new trains are already full and standing". There's 2 in service so far, with a total of 70 to be delivered.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss possible Expansions for Scotland's rail network

If anyone wishes to discuss timetable issues for existing lines please create a thread (if there isn't one already) in the Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables forum. Thanks.

 

[Macwomble]

St. Andrews appears to be back on the agenda.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/full-steam-ahead-for-st-andrews-rail-study-1-4781615

Full steam ahead for St Andrews rail study

St Andrews station in 1965. Picture: George Robin/Wikicommons



The campaign to re-open the St Andrews rail link after a 50-year gap today won Scottish Government funding for a study which could pave the way for the scheme.

Transport Secretary Michael Matheson further raised campaigners hopes by choosing the Fife town to announce £681,000 for research into the project and nine other potential rail initiatives across Scotland.


The appraisals will determine whether rail is the best transport development option, which could lead to government money to build them.


Research for the St Andrews Rail Link campaign (StARLink) in 2012 found that restoring the five-mile spur from Leuchars would cost £71 million.


Its report said the line, closed in 1969, would cover its operating costs and provide faster journeys to and from Edinburgh than by road.

Also awarded appraisal funding, with potential rail elements:

East Lothian Council – new Haddington station

Fife Council – Cross-Forth travel



Highlands and Islands Transport Partnership (Hitrans) – HM Naval Base Clyde transport opportunities

Linlithgow and Linlithgow Bridge Community Council – Access to Linlithgow station

North East of Scotland Transport Partnership (Nestrans) – Accessibility at Insch station

Newburgh Train Station Group – new Newburgh station



StARLink – new St Andrews station

South Lanarkshire Council – connectivity in Clydesdale

Tayside and Central Scotland Transport Partnership (Tactran) – Bridge of Earn/Oudenarde park and ride

Tactran – Stirling strategic park and ride

The new appraisals will be paid for by the £2m local rail development fund which was established by ministers in February as part of the Scottish Budget deal with the Scottish Greens.



BACKGROUND: Campaigners renew push for St Andrews rail link
Mr Matheson said: “Providing funding for these transport appraisals will allow the successful applicants to consider the transport issues and opportunities affecting their local communities.

“Helping communities bring forward proposals to tackle these specific, local rail connectivity issues, will allow us to consider potential projects as part of our plans for future investment in our railways.”

StARLink convenor Jane Ann Liston said: “As a prime national and international destination, being the 'home of golf' and Scotland's oldest university, the historic tourist destination of St Andrews has suffered for years from the onslaught of increasing traffic clogging up the town.

“The StARLink campaign believes the option of direct rail travel from Edinburgh - including the airport interchange - and Dundee to the town would significantly alleviate both the physical and environmental effects of too many cars in a small town with a medieval layout.

"In addition, improving the connectivity with the likes of Cupar, Dundee and Dunfermline will spread the economic benefits generated by St Andrews over the whole of Fife and also across the Tay.”

READ MORE: ‘Pop up’ railway stations could test passenger demand, say Greens
Scottish Greens environment spokesman and Mid Scotland and Fife MSP Mark Ruskell said: “Today’s announcement shows our Green budget win in action, helping communities across Scotland take the first step to getting back on the rail map after years of isolation.

"We listened to communities who had the vision and drive to re-open rail stations, but needed the support from government to build the case further.

"Re-opening rail stations takes time, but today’s announcement is the first step in a rail revolution that will lead to a positive legacy for generations to come.

"Expanding the rail network is vital if we are to deliver a green and clean transport system for the future, but it can also be a big driver to economically regenerate communities.

“I’m delighted that both Newburgh and St Andrews rail campaigns have directly benefited from the fund.

"Both have developed compelling cases to reopen stations that would be a huge boost to their communities. The funds will enable them to develop strong business cases to move forward to the next step.”

 

[Steamysandy]

I travelled over the whole line from Leuchars to Thornton Junction in June 1962. It was a Special organised by East Lothian County Council for the pupils of North Berwick High School and we stopped at St Andrews for about a couple of hours.
The train was hauled by two B1 class locos and was formed of LNER Gresley Saloon stock which formed the Television train - so named because it was fitted up with a CCTV system including a Studio on the train. Many years later I was told it was the only time the Television train had run between St Andrews and Anstruther!

 

[mcmad]

St. Andrews appears to be back on the agenda.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/full-steam-ahead-for-st-andrews-rail-study-1-4781615

Interesting that it doesn't cover Levenmouth. Is this because that scheme has already passed that hurdle or is it out of favour with TS/SNP?

 

[clc]

Levenmouth has its own transport study going on at the moment.

 

[InOban]

Almost all the other projects on the list make more economic sense.

 

[Steamysandy]

According to the Scotsman ,St Andrews is one of nine schemes to be funded for assessment.Of local interest is a new station at Haddington and Cross Forth travel.
Haddington is expanding rapidly on the west side but reopening it would involve putting in a reinstated Junction at Longniddry with further additional trains from there to Edinburgh. Longniddry is on the section between Drem and Wallyford being spoken about for quadrupling.
We live in interesting times!
Does Cross Forth mean planning for a new Forth Bridge?

 

[InOban]

Ten projects £681k altogether. <£70k for each study. That doesn't buy much.
I haven't yet found details of any of the submissions.

 

[Altnabreac]

Suspect Cross Forth is more likely looking at potential use of the old Forth Road Bridge whether Guided Bus corridors or further Park & Ride etc.

Agree that Haddington looks a much more interesting prospect than St Andrews, especially in context of some of the other schemes being looked at for East Lothian and the Waverley eastern approaches.

 

[youngac]

North East Fife is a very marginal constituency (majority of just 2 votes in 2017), so I can’t help but feel this might be a political decision by Holyrood...

 

[clc]

The Scottish Government talks a lot about ‘inclusive growth’ but St Andrews is a wealthy town so a rail link is not going to score highly on that front which is one of the reasons it’s very unlikely to happen.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Suspect Cross Forth is more likely looking at potential use of the old Forth Road Bridge whether Guided Bus corridors or further Park & Ride etc.

Agree that Haddington looks a much more interesting prospect than St Andrews, especially in context of some of the other schemes being looked at for East Lothian and the Waverley eastern approaches.

I figure the case for Haddington will entirely depend on what extra services are possible after the Waverley/ECML capacity upgrade. If there's an extra path available to Longniddry but no compelling reason to send it to North Berwick or Dunbar then a single-line spur for an hourly service may not be the end of the world. Unfortunately it looks like the A1 dualling was done without consideration of a rail reopening so crossing it may be one of the most expensive parts of the scheme. If the existing trackbed is followed, then it'll be necessary to cross the A1 at an angle exactly where the westbound off-ramp starts. One of the reasons the Borders Railway followed a new course through Shawfair was the difficulty of re-instating the track at a similar angle under the City Bypass.

The Scottish Government talks a lot about ‘inclusive growth’ but St Andrews is a wealthy town so a rail link is not going to score highly on that front which is one of the reasons it’s very unlikely to happen.

St Andrews may not require the same degree of ongoing subsidy as other lines which serve more deprived areas, so it isn't necessarily a zero-sum game. Still, I don't think it'll happen until the capacity situation in Fife is sorted out. It might be one of those shiny semi-viable schemes that TS can use to justify the more boring capacity improvement works like that Inverkeithing-Halbeath direct line.

 

[Steamysandy]

My personal thought regarding Haddington is that it might terminate on the North side of the A1 as a park and ride station.
The SRPS looked at Haddington before moving to Boness but it was dropped because of objections from Local residents adjacent to the trackbed between the A1 and the old terminus site. There is very little space for a car park there.
A side benefit would be reinstatement of a provision to turn trains at Longniddry instead of Drem which is basically in the middle of nowhere with next to othing in the way of onward connections. This has been the subject of many complaints over the years.

 

[najaB]

My personal thought regarding Haddington is that it might terminate on the North side of the A1 as a park and ride station.

I suppose if they really had to get closer to the old terminus the only option would be going under the A1 (over would be ruled out on visual impact). I can't see that being cheap.

Also, looks like there would be two level crossings required - that Park-n-Ride option is looking better and better.

 

[The_Engineer]

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/local-rail-development-fund-set-to-award-grants-of-681k/

 

[oldman]

Of all the ways in which you could spend money improving connectivity in the Lothians, a Haddington branch seems a very low priority. The big population growth is in and close to Edinburgh, but sadly long-distance commuting from affluent areas gets the focus.

 

[najaB]

Of all the ways in which you could spend money improving connectivity in the Lothians, a Haddington branch seems a very low priority.

What's your better rail suggestion? (Given that this is primarily a rail-focused forum)

 

[Grinner]

I though it might be useful to list all the proposals that studies are being funded for (https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/local-rail-development-fund-set-to-award-grants-of-681k/):

• East Lothian Council – Haddington
• Fife Council – Cross Forth Travel
• Hitrans – HMNB Clyde Transport Opportunities
• Linlithgow and Linlithgow Bridge Community Council – Access to Linlithgow Station
• Nestrans – Accessibility at Insch Station
• Newburgh Train Station Group – Newburgh
• StARLink – St Andrews
• South Lanarkshire Council – connectivity in Clydesdale
• Tactran – Bridge of Earn/Oudenarde P&R
• Tactran – Stirling Strategic P&R

 

[InOban]

Of all the ways in which you could spend money improving connectivity in the Lothians, a Haddington branch seems a very low priority. The big population growth is in and close to Edinburgh, but sadly long-distance commuting from affluent areas gets the focus.

Large housing estate being built at Haddington, on the town side of the A1 junction. I'm sure they're all commuting.

 

[och aye]

I thought Haddington station had been kicked into the long grass, so its a bit surprising to see it on the list.

Given how long East Linton station is taking, I wouldn't hold my breath and see Haddington back on the railway map anytime soon.

 

[najaB]

thought Haddington station had been kicked into the long grass, so its a bit surprising to see it on the list.

As noted above, there's housing development planned for the area. I wouldn't be surprised if a study into rail connection was part of getting the deal closed.

 

[och aye]

One of the reasons the Borders Railway followed a new course through Shawfair was the difficulty of re-instating the track at a similar angle under the City Bypass.

I thought the main reason they routed through Shawfair, instead of reinstating Millerhill was because of the new town development?

 

[och aye]

As noted above, there's housing development planned for the area. I wouldn't be surprised if a study into rail connection was part of getting the deal closed.

In that case, we might see it Haddington back on the railway map sooner than I thought.