Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[Millisle]

^Aberdeen is being extended and the existing building refurbished, but in Inverness no part of the original terminal was retained and there was significant disruption during construction, which in that case could have been avoided entirely by starting at the other side of the airport. Because it was a clean slate project rather than extension of the existing building, it was a missed opportunity imo.

As an aside, that Evening Express article mentions 9 stations between Dyce and Aberdeen, is that correct and what were they? Stoneywood, Bucksburn, Kittybrewster.....

Working outward from the city: Schoolhill, Hutcheon Street, Kittybrewster, Don Street, Woodside, Persley, Bucksburn, Bankhead, Stoneywood. All closed in 1937 with the end of the Aberdeen Suburban service, except Bucksburn (1956) and Kittybrewster (1968).

 

[route101]

Surely it's time to be thinking of a new St Enoch station. There's a huge are to the east of the shopping center currently used as car parks that could be used for a new Queen Street sized station. It could even be integrated with the shopping center and still keep underground car parks.

What services would serve St Enochs ?

 

[47271]

Working outward from the city: Schoolhill, Hutcheon Street, Kittybrewster, Don Street, Woodside, Persley, Bucksburn, Bankhead, Stoneywood. All closed in 1937 with the end of the Aberdeen Suburban service, except Bucksburn (1956) and Kittybrewster (1968).

1937 eh, and let's not forget that Dyce was shut for the best part of 20 years? - so Aberdeen was clueless about public transport over 80 years ago, I thought it was something that they learned with their trains in the 1960s. And with their buses in the 1990s, if you know what I mean...

As for rail links to the new exhibition centre or airport, it'll never happen, unless we have a city that thinks it's viable to make the third and fourth stations within its boundaries (1 - Aberdeen, 2 - Dyce, reopened only in 1984) those that serve no day to day local purpose.

The council have far more need to be working with partners to reopen stops between Kittybrewster and Dyce now that the line is getting redoubled. It may have escaped their attention that at least two of those stations served what are now the most economically and socially deprived parts of the city.

 

[haggishunter]

Working outward from the city: Schoolhill, Hutcheon Street, Kittybrewster, Don Street, Woodside, Persley, Bucksburn, Bankhead, Stoneywood. All closed in 1937 with the end of the Aberdeen Suburban service, except Bucksburn (1956) and Kittybrewster (1968).

Thanks for that. When a student in Aberdeen often looked at the derelict platforms at Kittybrewster from stationary trains, thinking it was a shame couldn't get off right there at the University! Were there more suburban stations on the South side of the city centre?

 

[GrimShady]

What services would serve St Enochs ?

Divert all the Inverclyde services which should free up a good bit of space at Central. Just the same as it was in GSWR days.

It shouldn't be too difficult to reconnect the Union Line back to the main line just before Polmadie.

 

[Millisle]

Thanks for that. When a student in Aberdeen often looked at the derelict platforms at Kittybrewster from stationary trains, thinking it was a shame couldn't get off right there at the University! Were there more suburban stations on the South side of the city centre?

The route of the Sub was from Culter on the Deeside line (cl. 1966) to Dyce. The stations that closed in 1937 with the Sub working inward from Culter were: Murtle, Pitfodels, Ruthrieston and Holburn Street. Overall, bus and tram competition seems to have been responsible.
Kittybrewster and Dyce closed in the immense GNOSR bonfire of 6 May 1968 that saw the closure of the coast line from Grange and Cairnie Junctions to Elgin via Buckie, and the line from Keith Junction to Elgin via Craigellachie, as well as numerous small stations on the remaining Aberdeen - Inverness line. The progressive singling over the next couple of years of the line between Aberdeen and Keith Junction would then commence. The Fraserburgh line would linger for freight until 1979, having closed with Peterhead to passengers in 1965. Maud Junction to Peterhead closed completely in 1970. Of all the proposed passenger closures the only ones to be turned down were of Inverurie and Insch stations. Unluckiest station to close on the mainline probably Kintore, which might have got away with it just had it not been for its relative proximity to Inverurie.

 

[47271]

Of all the proposed passenger closures the only ones to be turned down were of Inverurie and Insch stations.

Off topic I know, but Insch I could just about see having a case made for closure, but you've told me something else I didn't know when you say that Inverurie came close to it. Today it has over half a million entrances and exits a year. Dyce does a similar figure.

It's interesting to speculate how long Inverurie would've stayed shut for had it not made it through it the 60s - I suspect that it would've reopened rather sooner than Dyce or Portlethen which were mid 80s.

 

[Millisle]

Off topic I know, but Insch I could just about see having a case made for closure, but you've told me something else I didn't know when you say that Inverurie came close to it. Today it has over half a million entrances and exits a year. Dyce does a similar figure.

It's interesting to speculate how long Inverurie would've stayed shut for had it not made it through it the 60s - I suspect that it would've reopened rather sooner than Dyce or Portlethen which were mid 80s.

I know; it is hard to believe today. They were both in Beeching Part 1, Appendix 2, for closure. Whether they got to statutory notice stage or it was dropped before that I cannot now remember. It is hard to imagine how different the socio-economic context in the penumbra of Aberdeen was in the '60s compared to since.

 

[och aye]

£9m Aberdeen station investment is first glass news

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/gbp-9m-aberdeen-station-investment-is-first-glass#

Work is now underway on a 12-month programme at Aberdeen station to deliver a £9m investment to upgrade and replace the glass roof.

Existing glass panels, which are prone to cracking and discolouration, will be replaced with modern light-weight polycarbonate glazing and a new roof access system will also be installed for future maintenance on the listed structure.

 

[och aye]

MSP backs campaign to reopen Cumnock station

https://www.cumnockchronicle.com/news/16899818.msp-backs-campaign-to-reopen-cumnock-station/

A South Scotland MSP is backing calls for train stations in Cumnock and Mauchline to be reopened.

Colin Smyth joined East Ayrshire Labour campaigners at Kilmarnock Station last week demanding better services for commuters and investment on the Glasgow South Western Line south of Kilmarnock.

Mr Smyth is Labour’s Shadow Cabinet Secretary for Rural Economy, Connectivity and Transport and he feels Cumnock, Doon Valley and Upper Nithsdale are being short changed by the infrequent service.

Is there much of a local campaign for these stations to be re-opened?

 

[InOban]

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...ches-another-milestone-timetable-improvements

They've committed themselves to delivering the new timetable in December. No wonder they're having another week's blockade to make sure.

 

[youngac]

Good to see them finally being able to implement these changes.

 

[Macwomble]

I just hope it all works out.

 

[DuncanS]

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...ches-another-milestone-timetable-improvements

They've committed themselves to delivering the new timetable in December. No wonder they're having another week's blockade to make sure.

Making my train leave earlier of an evening but arrive at the same time as just now isnt really an improvement for me

Farewell to direct links between Stirling and Polmont and Linlithgow, hello to a 15 minute wait at Grahamston, unless you appear to be travelling on a Sunday when the super new Queen St to Waverley via Cumbernauld white elephant doesnt appear to be running.

 

[Altnabreac]

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...ches-another-milestone-timetable-improvements

They've committed themselves to delivering the new timetable in December. No wonder they're having another week's blockade to make sure.

Good to see them finally being able to implement these changes.

Interesting that they are launching the new Cumbernauld - Edinburgh, Dundee - Arbroath, Aberdeen - Montrose and Inverness - Elgin services but not the new Glasgow - Dundee semi fast.

I wonder if there has been a decision that Queen St needs to be finished before there is capacity for the extra semi-fasts to Dundee?

 

[youngac]

I'm interested to see their proposal to introduce 4 car 380s to Neilston is going ahead. This might end up resulting in reduced capacity at peak times since Neilston usually gets 6 car 314s unless the 4 car 380s are used on peak services to Newton/Cathcart that are currently just 3 cars.

 

[Stopper]

Making my train leave earlier of an evening but arrive at the same time as just now isnt really an improvement for me

Farewell to direct links between Stirling and Polmont and Linlithgow, hello to a 15 minute wait at Grahamston, unless you appear to be travelling on a Sunday when the super new Queen St to Waverley via Cumbernauld white elephant doesnt appear to be running.

Yeah that’s me and a few other Linlithgow commuters I know heading to the car. I don’t think we’ll be the only ones.

Absolute disaster for Linlithgow and Polmont, 2tph towards Stirling replaced with pointless white elephant Cumbernauld services. Disgusting treatment of a station of over a million annual passengers, with intermediate journeys on the Dunblane line almost wiped out.

Positives of the new timetable are the other extra services being introduced/extended on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen line and the trains that are being extended in length (except for the E-G services which have already been extended, and are still full and standing).

 

[marks87]

Interesting that they are launching the new Cumbernauld - Edinburgh, Dundee - Arbroath, Aberdeen - Montrose and Inverness - Elgin services but not the new Glasgow - Dundee semi fast.

I wonder if there has been a decision that Queen St needs to be finished before there is capacity for the extra semi-fasts to Dundee?

Is the Dundee-Arbroath an extension of the current Edinburgh-Dundee semi-fast, or a completely new service?

If the former, then the lack of Glasgow-Dundee could be down to stock availability. There’s talk of unrefurbished HSTs entering service, but I’d imagine they’d want to keep them to a minimum.

 

[EdinburghTrain]

Average journey times between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk High will be reduced from 51 minutes to 47 minutes.

I wonder why not the EGIP journey time of 42 minutes?
Is it because Edinburgh > Dunblane/Alloa services aren't using Class 385s yet and the rolling stock on the line isn't fast enough to support they fastest possible timetable yet?

I'm quite looking forward to what I assume would be Haymarket to Glasgow Queen Street in 36/37 minutes..

 

[Class 170101]

I wonder why not the EGIP journey time of 42 minutes?
Is it because Edinburgh > Dunblane/Alloa services aren't using Class 385s yet and the rolling stock on the line isn't fast enough to support they fastest possible timetable yet?

I'm quite looking forward to what I assume would be Haymarket to Glasgow Queen Street in 36/37 minutes..

No services to Dunblane / Alloa are timed using EMU timing loads. They are still timed using DMU timing loads (at either 75, 90 or 100mph) so its probably having an impact on the journey times of E&G services. Some 5 to 7 minutes pathing throughout the journey for some E&G services. Once removed gives a journey time of 42 minutes but probably can only be achieved once all services go Electric.

 

[snookertam]

Divert all the Inverclyde services which should free up a good bit of space at Central. Just the same as it was in GSWR days.

It shouldn't be too difficult to reconnect the Union Line back to the main line just before Polmadie.

The problem is whatever services are diverted away from Glasgow Central would cause a fair amount of disenchantment. There's no way another big terminal will be built in Glasgow. If the City Union was to be brought into passenger use there could be potential for a through service - eg. a West coast - Glasgow - West Lothian/Nth Lanarkshire service, with a new two platform station built in the King Street/Saltmarket area (which in itself would require a lot of construction work) but even if you take services away from Central, they're still occupying the same routes elsewhere, many of which are close to capacity anyway.

Basically without massive investment, it is not happening. So it's not happening. We can dream though.

Perhaps more likely is electrification of the city union, which would assist ECS moves between north and south of the river and divert these away from Yoker and/or Hyndland.

 

[Class83]

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...ches-another-milestone-timetable-improvements

They've committed themselves to delivering the new timetable in December. No wonder they're having another week's blockade to make sure.

They list Edinburgh-Dunblane as 4 car, is there a platform on that line that can't cope with 6 carriages, I thought the 4 car 385s were all for the Edinburgh-Glasgow 8 car operation?

 

[Chrism20]

They list Edinburgh-Dunblane as 4 car, is there a platform on that line that can't cope with 6 carriages, I thought the 4 car 385s were all for the Edinburgh-Glasgow 8 car operation?

It's 4 car 365s for Edinburgh - Dunblane. Had to look twice at it myself.

 

[GrimShady]

The problem is whatever services are diverted away from Glasgow Central would cause a fair amount of disenchantment. There's no way another big terminal will be built in Glasgow. If the City Union was to be brought into passenger use there could be potential for a through service - eg. a West coast - Glasgow - West Lothian/Nth Lanarkshire service, with a new two platform station built in the King Street/Saltmarket area (which in itself would require a lot of construction work) but even if you take services away from Central, they're still occupying the same routes elsewhere, many of which are close to capacity anyway.

Basically without massive investment, it is not happening. So it's not happening. We can dream though.

Perhaps more likely is electrification of the city union, which would assist ECS moves between north and south of the river and divert these away from Yoker and/or Hyndland.

A new terminus will have to happen if they want to expand as there's no room at Central or QS. The distance between St Enoch and central isn't far.

It's a case of invest and expand or do nothing.

 

[JohnR]

Interesting that they are launching the new Cumbernauld - Edinburgh, Dundee - Arbroath, Aberdeen - Montrose and Inverness - Elgin services but not the new Glasgow - Dundee semi fast.

I wonder if there has been a decision that Queen St needs to be finished before there is capacity for the extra semi-fasts to Dundee?

Is the Dundee-Arbroath an extension of the current Edinburgh-Dundee semi-fast, or a completely new service?

If the former, then the lack of Glasgow-Dundee could be down to stock availability. There’s talk of unrefurbished HSTs entering service, but I’d imagine they’d want to keep them to a minimum.

As far as I am aware, the intention has been for some time to introduce the hourly Dundee-Arbroath as an extension of the Edinburgh semi-fasts, before switching to extending the Glasgow-Dundee semi-fasts December 19.

 

[jopsuk]

Making my train leave earlier of an evening but arrive at the same time as just now isnt really an improvement for me

Farewell to direct links between Stirling and Polmont and Linlithgow, hello to a 15 minute wait at Grahamston, unless you appear to be travelling on a Sunday when the super new Queen St to Waverley via Cumbernauld white elephant doesnt appear to be running.

I like the way they carefully don't mention the loss of cross-falkirk local service.

I know of someone that regularly travels Larbert-Polmont, taking an e-bike with him. Having to change, even with the same-platform change, will be a pain for him. Driving isn't an option for medical reasons and there aren't buses that will get him between his actual start and finish in any sensible way

 

[Highlandspring]

Is the Dundee-Arbroath an extension of the current Edinburgh-Dundee semi-fast, or a completely new service?

It’ll be an extension.

 

[Grinner]

A new terminus will have to happen if they want to expand as there's no room at Central or QS. The distance between St Enoch and central isn't far.

It's a case of invest and expand or do nothing.

Build a tunnel underneath the city centre, linking services that currently run into Central and QS clears space at both termini. There would be a single underground station with pedestrian access to both of them to make changing trains easier. Much more sensible that rebuilding a station closed in the 1960s and dividing services between three termini.

 

[Southsider]

Build a tunnel underneath the city centre, linking services that currently run into Central and QS clears space at both termini. There would be a single underground station with pedestrian access to both of them to make changing trains easier. Much more sensible that rebuilding a station closed in the 1960s and dividing services between three termini.

Why not go the whole hog - build a station in the tunnel and shut Queen Street?

 

[Grinner]

Why not go the whole hog - build a station in the tunnel and shut Queen Street?

Depends on the cost I suppose, but there'll always be a need to terminate long distance trains from the north in the city centre.