Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[Stopper]

Having mostly 4 tracks between Edinburgh and Drem should hopefully allow for 2tph to North Berwick and maybe an hourly service to Dunbar. Not sure on capacity after the East Coast Trains and TPE start running that way though.

 

[Aictos]

Having mostly 4 tracks between Edinburgh and Drem should hopefully allow for 2tph to North Berwick and maybe an hourly service to Dunbar. Not sure on capacity after the East Coast Trains and TPE start running that way though.

Umm I have a better idea why not operate 1tph to North Berwick as it is atm and run the 1tph to Dunbar as it is atm but departing Edinburgh 30 minutes apart on the hour.

If any service ought to see 2tph why not Edinburgh to Dunbar and leave North Berwick as 1tph?

 

[InOban]

Because there are more passengers from North Berwick? And there are other tocs serving Dunbar?

 

[Aictos]

Because there are more passengers from North Berwick? And there are other tocs serving Dunbar?

Because that Dunbar service ought to continue to Newcastle eventually in order to speed up the long distance services by having a semi fast call instead.

 

[Altnabreac]

How many lines in Scotland can really sustain 8-car operation though?

I don’t think many Ayr services are 8-car. E-G probably needs more than 8-car. Inter7City services probably could sustain it however they’re unlikely to be EMUs. East Kilbride and North Berwick are the only others I can think of.

8-car operation can look good for those lines because they're currently limited by frequency rather than train length. However, there are plans to address the frequency problem for both. EK will inevitably end up having the whole line doubled for a 4tph service, and the ECML local services will be massively overhauled once the four-tracking project is done. In both cases, increased frequency will almost certainly suffice for a long time. Train lengthening is a last-resort measure as it otherwise doesn't radically improve the transport experience for passengers. Every time, passengers will ask for more frequency over longer trains since that makes their lives that bit easier. I'm sure there'd be passengers on the North Berwick services who'd even be willing to give up a seat if it meant they could get out of bed 30 minutes later and still arrive in time for work.

I think in the medium term there are many lines in Scotland that at peak times would justify 8 car operation. If we look at a potential 16tph service through a Cross Glasgow tunnel it is probably going to made up of something like this on the north side:
6tph Glasgow - Edinburgh via Croy / Falkirk High
2tph Glasgow - Edinburgh via Cumbernauld / Falkirk Grahamston
2tph Glasgow - Cumbernauld
2tph Glasgow - Perth / Alloa (Stirling Fast)
2tph Glasgow - Stirling (Stirling stopper)
2tph Glasgow - Anniesland

I reckon the only one of those routes on which the 8 cars will look out of place in the high peak will be the 2tph to Anniesland. There might be an argument for leaving the Anniesland service serving QS High Level and running something like a 2tph Motherwell / Coatbridge Central service instead.

But to operate 8 car services on those routes is going to need platform extensions at:
Lenzie, Bishopbriggs, Springburn (eastbound the out of use platform is long enough if refurbished), Stepps, Gartcosh, Greenfaulds, Cumbernauld, Camelon, Larbert, south facing bays at Stirling (if required), Bridge of Allan, Dunblane, Alloa, Edinburgh Park not to mention new stations at Winchburgh and Robroyston that I suspect will be built with circa 160m length platforms rather than the 195m length that would be needed for 8 car operation.

So I'd like to see a programme of platform extensions and train lengthening across those routes so that when a business case for the tunnel is drawn up the costs for 8 car operation are not added to it. Just for those 16 north side stations you'll be looking at somewhere in the region or £20m for compliant, lengthened platforms.

 

[InOban]

I believe that on the Ayr line many of the stations don't have platforms for 8 coach trains. That's why the 380s are fitted with SDO. I assume the 385s are also?

And as for the Anniesland trains, do they ever need more than two coaches at present?

But I agree that as longer-distance commuting grows, and city centre employment increases, and there are overdue restrictions on city centre traffic, then longer trains will be essential.

 

[Stopper]

I highly doubt E-G via Grahamston & Cumbernauld will ever justify 8-car operation, the only big market it serves is Linlithgow/Polmont - Edinburgh which will likely be improved with 6tph on the E-G anyway. The other proposed 2tph Cumbernauld-Glasgow would thin out any other loads aswell. So I doubt any of the Cumbernauld services would justify 8-car if it was getting 4tph. You’re unlikely to need 8-car operation on all of those Stirling services either given the frequencies noted.

In the next 10-15 years I’d be surprised if anything other than the E-G (via Falkirk High) & Ayrshire needs 8-car operation. EK & North Berwick can be solved by frequency doubling.

 

[clc]

Confirmation of extra carriages on East Kilbride line later this year:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/east-kilbride-train-line-set-13829569

This comment from ScotRail’s head of business development is interesting:-

“This is the first phase of the larger Scottish government project to enhance the railway to East Kilbride and Barrhead.”

 

[380101]

Confirmation of extra carriages on East Kilbride line later this year:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/east-kilbride-train-line-set-13829569

This comment from ScotRail’s head of business development is interesting:-

“This is the first phase of the larger Scottish government project to enhance the railway to East Kilbride and Barrhead.”

There's about to be major engineering works starting at the East Kilbride end of the line. Lots of survey markers have recently popped up along the route. Not sure where we'll get the extra units from to enhance the services unless the much talked about unit cascades due to the 385s all being delivered will release any - possibly with the Shotts line going electric will release enough 156 units to run more 4 cars on the EK line.

 

[Altnabreac]

There's about to be major engineering works starting at the East Kilbride end of the line. Lots of survey markers have recently popped up along the route. Not sure where we'll get the extra units from to enhance the services unless the much talked about unit cascades due to the 385s all being delivered will release any - possibly with the Shotts line going electric will release enough 156 units to run more 4 cars on the EK line.

The announcement is about funding to keep the 8 x 156s that were going off lease once Shotts was electrified and using them to strengthen EK and Barrhead services.

 

[route101]

There's about to be major engineering works starting at the East Kilbride end of the line. Lots of survey markers have recently popped up along the route. Not sure where we'll get the extra units from to enhance the services unless the much talked about unit cascades due to the 385s all being delivered will release any - possibly with the Shotts line going electric will release enough 156 units to run more 4 cars on the EK line.

Is it really happening though? I thought the extra 156s is what all that EK line was to get . Nothing has been announced with Electrification

 

[Class 170101]

Having mostly 4 tracks between Edinburgh and Drem should hopefully allow for 2tph to North Berwick and maybe an hourly service to Dunbar. Not sure on capacity after the East Coast Trains and TPE start running that way though.

Doesn't this already happen now on Saturday for certain hours on the existing infrastructure?

 

[Steamysandy]

Having mostly 4 tracks between Edinburgh and Drem should hopefully allow for 2tph to North Berwick and maybe an hourly service to Dunbar. Not sure on capacity after the East Coast Trains and TPE start running that way though.

Yes that is the normal service at present on Saturdays

 

[Stopper]

Doesn't this already happen now on Saturday for certain hours on the existing infrastructure?

Yes but I’m guessing that there are less of other services on that day.

 

[Class 170101]

Would only be freights. XC, LNER are both similar Monday to Saturday now.

 

[Steamysandy]

Would only be freights. XC, LNER are both similar Monday to Saturday now.

There's very little freight during the day nowadays.

 

[clc]

The Evening Times is losing patience with the Scottish Government over GARL:

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news...il-link-saga-has-dragged-on-for-far-too-long/

 

[railjock]

The Evening Times is losing patience with the Scottish Government over GARL:

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news...il-link-saga-has-dragged-on-for-far-too-long/

I didn't even know that it was a project still being seriously discussed.

 

[najaB]

I didn't even know that it was a project still being seriously discussed.

In its original form, no. The benefit of some kind of link between the airport and the rail network is a no-brainer though.

 

[Altnabreac]

The Evening Times is losing patience with the Scottish Government over GARL:

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news...il-link-saga-has-dragged-on-for-far-too-long/

There still isn’t any peak time capacity at Glasgow Central though which has always been the flaw with the scheme. Either it needs to be a PRT system from Gilmour St to the Airport or someone needs to create a load more capacity at Central.

Because for me if you managed to create space for 4tph extra at Central I’d be looking to run 2tph to Largs, 4tph to EK and 3tph to Neilston with my extra slots rather than some slow short tram trains to the Airport that mess up capacity on the Paisley Corridor.

So to resurrect GARL you need to be creating 15tph extra slots at Central and you only get that with the cross Glasgow tunnel.

 

[snookertam]

I think the case for Edinburgh Airport being linked up to the rail network is far stronger than Glasgow, due to it's location.

If anything was to happen for Glasgow then potentially some form of light rail link between there and the city, but that would be it.

It's a pet issue for the Evening Times, but I doubt many in the city are that bothered.

 

[clc]

There still isn’t any peak time capacity at Glasgow Central though which has always been the flaw with the scheme. Either it needs to be a PRT system from Gilmour St to the Airport or someone needs to create a load more capacity at Central.

Because for me if you managed to create space for 4tph extra at Central I’d be looking to run 2tph to Largs, 4tph to EK and 3tph to Neilston with my extra slots rather than some slow short tram trains to the Airport that mess up capacity on the Paisley Corridor.

So to resurrect GARL you need to be creating 15tph extra slots at Central and you only get that with the cross Glasgow tunnel.

I agree. I just wish a decision would be made one way or the other so they can get on with it.

 

[Highland37]

I would link both airports. The proximity of the railway to EDI makes it look not too hard (I flew in there this morning but obviously got the bus to Perth as Scotrail were running no trains from Glasgow (I had to go there first)) and Glasgow should be linked too.

 

[railjock]

I would link both airports. The proximity of the railway to EDI makes it look not too hard (I flew in there this morning but obviously got the bus to Perth as Scotrail were running no trains from Glasgow (I had to go there first)) and Glasgow should be linked too.

Edinburgh does have a tram link to Edinburgh Gateway ( for trains north ), Edinburgh Park ( for trains west ) and Haymarket ( for other trains ) though it is a tad expensive.

 

[clc]

They must have all the info they need by now, so just make the decision.

 

[47271]

A link shouldn't be that difficult for goodness sake: the distance from the Glasgow Airport terminal to Paisley Gilmour Street station is less than that from Edinburgh terminal to Edinburgh Gateway station.

 

[najaB]

A link shouldn't be that difficult for goodness sake: the distance from the Glasgow Airport terminal to Paisley Gilmour Street station is less than that from Edinburgh terminal to Edinburgh Gateway station.

The link isn't the problem, that's simple. Fitting extra trains onto an already full line to an already full station is the hard part.

 

[47271]

The link isn't the problem, that's simple. Fitting extra trains onto an already full line to an already full station is the hard part.

I know, I was making a direct comparison with the present setup at Edinburgh.

 

[route101]

Confirmation of extra carriages on East Kilbride line later this year:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/east-kilbride-train-line-set-13829569

This comment from ScotRail’s head of business development is interesting:-

“This is the first phase of the larger Scottish government project to enhance the railway to East Kilbride and Barrhead.”

First phase , what would be the second phase ?

 

[Class 170101]

There's very little freight during the day nowadays.

Still slots during the day and I expect a Freight path has to be provided between Edinburgh and Newcastle even its looped a couple of times along the way.