Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[najaB]

ECN2 is already four aspect from Haymarket to Dalmeny and vice versa.

I wasn't sure how far the four-aspect went. Thanks.

 

[SouthSub]

Has there ever been any discussion of a station at Kirkliston if the Almond Chord is built? Seems like it'd be a bit of a no brainer, and fairly easy to do.

The local MSP asked in parliament today about the possibility of a station at Kirkliston; he was informed of the usual consultation process which would have to be followed. I can't see it happening myself, as much as I would like it to.

 

[och aye]

Glasgow airport tram-train link hopes branded "dead" by council leader

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/glasgow-airport-tram-train-link-16094603

Council leader Susan Aitken has branded hopes for a tram-train link to Glasgow airport as “dead”, saying the plans fell apart under scrutiny.

A Personal Rapid Transit shuttle pod between Glasgow Airport and Paisley Gilmour Street is now the most likely option, it was revealed in January.

Glasgow Labour leader Frank McAveety said that plan had been described as a “toy town solution” during a full council meeting.

“When it was revealed that the new station for the airport rail link was actually an old station, Paisley Gilmour Street, it was described by the chamber of commerce as a ‘toy town’ solution.

“They’re not the only ones who were critical of the new developments in terms of the airport rail link and to make the case of an integrated rail link. Why are they wrong?”

But Ms Aitken said: “They’re wrong because this is an integrated rail link.

“The new outline business case was agreed at the airport access project executive steering group in January.

“It was agreed across all the partners to develop a revised outline business case, with a focus on systems such as those used across the UK and European airports. Personal Rapid Transit encompass a whole range of different types of transportation, which will link the airport directly into our existing rail system, as is the norm for airport access links.

“That work is being carried out and whatever the final form of the new project and the new link, it will take place within the same timescale as the tram-train project.”

The council leader said that although some people still cling to the tram-train project, it had fallen apart “quickly under the first serious scrutiny it had”.

“There has been I believe, deliberately or otherwise, a mischaracterisation of what the potential new project will be.”

She also hit back at Mr McAveety’s support for the tram-train method.

“I have to say to Councillor McAveety, I have tried to give him a dignified exit out of the support for the tram-train.

“I really, really wish he would take it because that project is now dead and I’m afraid that is rightly so.”

The tram-train link hit problems following a study that said it would impact negatively on other services in the West of Scotland and on Central Station, which is at capacity.

 

[adrock1976]

Neither of the above suggestions would be beneficial for those travelling to the airport from the north side of the Clyde, being as passengers would still have to make their own way between Queen Street and Central (with a minimum of 30 minutes interchange).

Ideally, Glasgow should bring back trams, with a suggested Phase 1 project being a route from Queen Street Station - Central Station - Broomielaw - Clyde Arc Bridge (it would make use of the bus lanes, being as no buses use that bridge) - Pacific Quay - Govan Cross (interchange with Underground) - New Southern General Hospital - Braehead Centre - Renfrew Cross - Airport - Abbotsinch - Paisley Gilmour Street.

Phase 2 could see the conversion of the Cathcart routes, as it is a low speed route, curvaceous in nature, and the overhead lines are due to be replaced at some point in the near future.

All that it would require to design, construct, and implement Glasgow's tram system would be to get the people in who are/were involved with Manchester Metrolink, as they are the experts with tram systems.

On a side note regarding Frank McAveety (who is an arch Blairite), the cynic in me suggests he is canvassing for votes for a future election. This is the same Frank McAveety who when serving as an MSP, he almost missed out voting in the chamber as he turned up late, saying he got lost in the building. It soon transpired that McAveety was in the canteen scoffing all the pies. That news article is probably buried deep on the Glasgow Herald website somewhere. Also, McAveety represents the Shettlston area in the east end, which during his time as leader of the council, Shettleston has the highest amount of off sales and bookies in relation to population per square feet. McAveety keeps on getting booted out of office by the electorate, but springs up again in a different capacity at the next election e.g. batted out as MSP, appears again as a councillor, and vice versa.

 

[alangla]

I’ve said it before - M8 bus lane from the M74 split to J19. Solves 90% of the perceived problems for < 5% of the cost of these ridiculous/impractical ideas that get trotted out. At least this one seems to have died a fairly rapid death (this time)

 

[alangla]

Ideally, Glasgow should bring back trams, with a suggested Phase 1 project being a route from Queen Street Station - Central Station - Broomielaw - Clyde Arc Bridge (it would make use of the bus lanes, being as no buses use that bridge) - Pacific Quay - Govan Cross (interchange with Underground) - New Southern General Hospital - Braehead Centre - Renfrew Cross - Airport - Abbotsinch - Paisley Gilmour Street.

So tear up Fastlink (waste of money to begin with) for a tram that replaces part of the X19 bus and will be slower to the airport than the 500 and slower city to Braehead than the various McGills motorway services? I don’t really see the point unfortunately. Cathcart, however, could be worth a look at some point

 

[d9009alycidon]

I’ve said it before - M8 bus lane from the M74 split to J19. Solves 90% of the perceived problems for < 5% of the cost of these ridiculous/impractical ideas that get trotted out. At least this one seems to have died a fairly rapid death (this time)

As someone who drives this route on a daily basis, I cannot see how a bus lane would improve anything, it would actually make things much worse for all traffic!!! It would need to be in the outside lane as there are far too many conflicting traffic flows in the inside lanes to allow a continuous car and lorry free lane, this would effectively bring the M8 to a standstill as it is already virtually a car park at peak hours with the existing number of lanes available, and from the M74 split to the Kingston Bridge is the worst section as it reduces to two lanes for a fair distance at the Plantation interchange.
Personally I still think that the PRT Option from the airport to Paisley St James, though not perfect, would have worked, the link would have been about the same length and take the same transit time as that connecting Gatwick North Terminal with the airport station and that seems to work well, add a turnback siding at Paisley St James and increase the train frequency and you have a decent link. I agree with other comments that this only really benefits those travelling to the city centre (but so does the existing "express" bus), but if the project was combined with the revival of the Glasgow Crossrail + St Johns Link then some services could be routed to the north west and east of Glasgow

 

[clc]

I think buses would run on the hard shoulder and where there’s no shoulder they would merge back into traffic. Not a continuous bus lane but better than nothing.

 

[d9009alycidon]

I think buses would run on the hard shoulder and where there’s no shoulder they would merge back into traffic. Not a continuous bus lane but better than nothing.

For this to be a safe option the "smart motorway" principles would need to be developed for that purpose, which means considerable investment to install the gantries, signs, cameras etc. Believe me it wouldn't make a jot of a difference as there is no hard shoulder at the most regularly congested stretches of this motorway between Govan and Plantation, the hard shoulder was sacrificed to provide more capacity and as expected hasn't improved things at all.

 

[edwin_m]

Personally I still think that the PRT Option from the airport to Paisley St James, though not perfect, would have worked, the link would have been about the same length and take the same transit time as that connecting Gatwick North Terminal with the airport station and that seems to work well, add a turnback siding at Paisley St James and increase the train frequency and you have a decent link.

One of the reasons for dismissing the tram-train solution was the lack of paths into Central. Extra trains terminating at St James would have exactly the same problem without the benefit of a through journey to the airport.

A PRT (or more likely a Gatwick-style shuttle) from Gilmour Street offers a better train frequency into Glasgow and also allows access to Ayrshire.

 

[Rick1984]

A PRT (or m9ore likely a Gatwick-style shuttle) from Gilmour Street offers a better train frequency into Glasgow and also allows access to Ayrshire

Agree. Any airport link should provide a step-free link to airport for trains from Ayrshire.

 

[och aye]

Does anyone know if there are still plans to introduce a railway station at the Ravenscraig redevelopment? This article doesn't mention anything about a new station, but there is a paragraph about roads and a sentence about improving public transport. Is the station part of a separate development scheme or has it been dropped from the overall redevelopment of the steel works?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47859545

EDIT: Rummaging around the Ravenscraig Ltd. website, it looks like I've answered my own question. Page 5 has a couple of Key Points regarding railway provision:

• Original proposal for new railway station at Town Centre no longer deliverable.

• Key links to surrounding railway stations to be enhanced.

http://ravenscraig.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/a1-exhibition-boards.pdf

 

[NotATrainspott]

So tear up Fastlink (waste of money to begin with) for a tram that replaces part of the X19 bus and will be slower to the airport than the 500 and slower city to Braehead than the various McGills motorway services? I don’t really see the point unfortunately. Cathcart, however, could be worth a look at some point

Very few cities have or need an express fixed link to their airport. Glasgow has just the wrong set of circumstances to make it easy to provide a heavy rail link. The idea behind the tram proposal is that it provides a higher-quality link that doesn't live and die by being marginally faster than a bus on the M8. It would provide a more useful way for a larger section of the public to get to and from the airport and other major trip generators like Braehead and the hospital. The more trip generators there are spread along the length of a route, the more worthwhile it is to provide a high-quality service.

 

[railjock]

Very few cities have or need an express fixed link to their airport. Glasgow has just the wrong set of circumstances to make it easy to provide a heavy rail link. The idea behind the tram proposal is that it provides a higher-quality link that doesn't live and die by being marginally faster than a bus on the M8. It would provide a more useful way for a larger section of the public to get to and from the airport and other major trip generators like Braehead and the hospital. The more trip generators there are spread along the length of a route, the more worthwhile it is to provide a high-quality service.

We used to fly fom Glasgow all the time a few years back ( and I live in the east of Scotland ) but Edinburgh has grabbed the top Airport spot these days. Getting through Glasgow to get to the airport can be a challenge so I can understand why access is a key concern for it to get passengers, other than from Glasgow or Ayrshire.

 

[sannox]

I’ve said it before - M8 bus lane from the M74 split to J19. Solves 90% of the perceived problems for < 5% of the cost of these ridiculous/impractical ideas that get trotted out. At least this one seems to have died a fairly rapid death (this time)

A bus lane would help but not solve the issues. The M8 tends to gum up about J25 now heading east and again is stationary from J24 in the evening westbound.

A PRT (or more likely a Gatwick-style shuttle) from Gilmour Street offers a better train frequency into Glasgow and also allows access to Ayrshire.

Gatwick style would be fine, but I think the best idea is to form a link, but one that is expandable system. I initially thought DLR style but perhaps in tram form that could then be developed to take over the fastlink route, to run to Erskine and over the Clyde. This offers flexibility and could link Renfrew/Erskine which lack rail. You get a Paisley-Airport shuttle but also widen access via PT.

We used to fly fom Glasgow all the time a few years back ( and I live in the east of Scotland ) but Edinburgh has grabbed the top Airport spot these days. Getting through Glasgow to get to the airport can be a challenge so I can understand why access is a key concern for it to get passengers, other than from Glasgow or Ayrshire.

It can be, but it really isn't a hill of beans to me as the M8 into Edinburgh is horrendous too in the AM and even going from East of Glasgow takes ages to both. Edinburgh Airport is like 'lets build an airport half as big as we need too'.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding bus lanes on the M8, I seem to remember that there was one on the London bound carriageway of the M4 from Heathrow, but reverted back to an all traffic lane as it made no difference whatsoever to the journey time.

 

[och aye]

The local MSP asked in parliament today about the possibility of a station at Kirkliston; he was informed of the usual consultation process which would have to be followed. I can't see it happening myself, as much as I would like it to.

Is there much of a local campaign to get a new station at Kirkliston?

 

[Siemens Trains]

Is there much of a local campaign to get a new station at Kirkliston?

Not really, but there have been quite a few new houses built in the area recently and the village used to have a station on a line which is now closed. The 38 bus service to Edinburgh can be rather patchy sometimes as it runs from Stirling. It can be very difficult to park at Dalmeny after about 8.30am on weekdays, and many Kirkliston residents are ex-Queensferry so they're accustomed to using the train. I'm not convinced people asking for a new station have identified possible locations or lines, but the Almond Chord might present an opportunity.

 

[thin_richmond]

I would wager as well that a good wedge of folk in Kirkliston aren't event aware of the proposed developments r.e the chord, and hence, are unaware that Kirky could be hooked up so to speak.

 

[SouthSub]

Local residents in Kirkliston are far more concerned with an improved bus service than a railway station. Other than the unreliable 38, the only other buses towards Edinburgh are the 600 to the airport, and the 63 which only goes as far as Edinburgh Park then on to Riccarton. While the local MSP and councillors have had some success in reinstating the frequency of the 38 to 15 minutes, after dialogue with First Bus, I feel the MSP's question on a railway station was asked for the purposes of being seen to be taking an interest, without any real expectation of anything happening.

If a railway station was to be built at Kirkliston I'm sure residents would be happy, but I can't see enough people being bothered enough to get an action group up and running.

 

[kilonewton]

Kirkliston could possibly be better served by extending the tram to Newbridge and then following the old alignment to Kirkliston, then on to Dalmeny & Queensferry. But putting in a Lothian Bus route that originates in the village into Central Edinburgh would probably suffice.

 

[SouthSub]

Kirkliston could possibly be better served by extending the tram to Newbridge and then following the old alignment to Kirkliston, then on to Dalmeny & Queensferry. But putting in a Lothian Bus route that originates in the village into Central Edinburgh would probably suffice.

A Lothian Buses route from Kirkliston to Edinburgh city centre is the one public transport improvement that would satisfy the most people in the village. The tram would be an attractive proposition - I don't know if the original plan for the line running to Newbridge will ever be resurrected, but if it was then Kirkliston onwards to Queensferry would be a natural extension.

 

[ld0595]

Could we see the Alloa to Fife link happen? Would be nice but a cost of £126-£234 million seems quite a bit more than I expected..

Public meeting to discuss Alloa to Fife rail link

THE drive to re-open passenger railway lines between Alloa and Dunfermline is set to receive a fresh boost in the coming months.

A public meeting, looking to gauge public support while giving a chance to put forward ideas, is being planned in time to inform applications to the Local Rail Development Fund, due in June.

Work is currently being undertaken by the office of Scottish Green MSP Mark Ruskell, representative for Mid-Scotland and Fife.

The case to open up the lines, which freight trains used to run on to haul coal to Longannet, was recently strengthened by revelations that manufacturing company Talgo is highly likely to erect a train factory at the former power station.

This would create up to 1,000 positions with hopes that Wee County residents could have access to these jobs by clean and affordable means.

The Campaign for Better Transport in February highlighted how locals would benefit from improved access to places like Edinburgh while the move could also support the growth of tourism in the area with an estimated £126-£234million needed to repurpose a 14mile freight line.

Clacks man Chick Hosie, who is working for the MSP to gauge the level of public support, highlighted the many benefits the revamped line could bring.

He said: "It's a great opportunity to link Alloa in with Fife and Edinburgh, bringing in employment opportunities, opportunities for businesses, educational opportunities and greater mobility for people generally."

For the Scottish Greens, whose MSP Ruskell has been campaigning on the issue for around two years, it is also about the environmental impact by taking cars off the road and encouraging people to use mass transport to reduce their own carbon footprint, added Chick.

Plans are to hold a public meeting with stakeholders including Transport Scotland, local representatives, members of the public and more both in Alloa and in Kincardine by early June as applications for the Local Rail Development Fund are due by the end of that month.

This fund enables local communities to appraise and bring forward proposals tackling connectivity issues.

 

[Macwomble]

Would be nice but a cost of £126-£234 million seems quite a bit more than I expected..

Wow, that's a lot more than I would have thought (too). Maybe the price includes "knitting" so that the current Glasgow to Alloa can be extended to Dunfermline.

 

[mcmad]

Since they seem to be talking more about an Edinburgh link then perhaps the costs also include a new South facing connection at the Dunfermline end? Not sure where the paths over the bridge (or the rolling stock!) would come from unless they're doing a double Fife circle..... why not run it via the sub too for a real mazy run!

 

[Steamysandy]

Wow, that's a lot more than I would have thought (too). Maybe the price includes "knitting" so that the current Glasgow to Alloa can be extended to Dunfermline.

Does that allow for demolition of the Police Station ,Court Buildings and houses at Touch?
Only asking!

 

[najaB]

Wow, that's a lot more than I would have thought (too). Maybe the price includes "knitting" so that the current Glasgow to Alloa can be extended to Dunfermline.

They would need to double a lot, if not all, of the line as it's single-track most of the way, no?

 

[MadMac]

They would need to double a lot, if not all, of the line as it's single-track most of the way, no?

Single all the way, I believe. Was it ever double?

 

[Steamysandy]

Single all the way, I believe. Was it ever double?

It was a backwater made up of pieces connected together.
The main line was double track via Oakley ,Dunfermline Upper and Touch .The Eastern end has all been built on .

 

[mcmad]

The Alloa - Dunfermline (via Culross) line is another bit of railway like the Edinburgh Sub and bits of Glasgow crossrail that people like to propose for reopening to solve a problem that isn't really there. The current line is slow, twisty and single track. The junction at the Fife end only faces North. It also falls down on almost all of Altnabrec's reopening 'rules'.

The only good news is that there are few major structures and it runs mostly in openish farmland.

If (BIG if) the Talgo assembly plant were ever to open at Longannet then you could perhaps justify an extension to there from Alloa but even that would be doubtful. Any output would be out of gauge to run and likely be shipped from either Longannets own pier or road to Roysth.