Expected or due

[3141]

I can't find a previous thread about this so I'll start a new one.

SWR have now begun showing "due" instead of "expected" on platform displays. This is much less useful for passengers. If a train is timetabled to be at a station at 12.17 and that's the current time you know it's due, but if it hasn't arrived you'd like to know how much longer you will have to wait for it. The "expected" time told you that, though it wasn't always accurate, but "due" gives no useful information at all. Most unhelpful when you're on platform 2 at Basingstoke at 23.38!

I've contacted SWR about this, but in the meantime does anyone have any information as to why they've made the change?

 

[Master29]

It`s semantics for most people I would think but by definition "expected" and "due" have different meanings as you say. I never really thought about it tbh. Expected gives you a point of reference whereas due could be seen as ambiguous. If you`re dealing with a complex system like a rail network then you can see the value of "due".

 

[ag51ruk]

Given that the dictionary definition of 'due' includes 'expected at', this doesn't seem like an issue to me

 

[kev1974]

Surely they are still displaying the "time the approx train will turn up in the platform" as they always were, no? It's just the word that has changed? Maybe to make better use of the limited space on the displays?

 

[bb21]

"Due" means it's in the signal section and expected imminently, hence no "expected".

 

[kristiang85]

I don't mind how its written, just I would like at least a time... unlike SWR's shambles late last night.

 

[edwin_m]

To me "Due" means when it's scheduled, "Expected" means the best guess of when it will actually arrive/depart. I've seen screens that used "Due" when they meant "Expected" (by this definition) - typically there was a scheduled time and a "Due" time that was sometimes different.

 

[kevjs]

To me "Due" means when it's scheduled, "Expected" means the best guess of when it will actually arrive/depart. I've seen screens that used "Due" when they meant "Expected" (by this definition) - typically there was a scheduled time and a "Due" time that was sometimes different.

On the buses at least "due" means, should be hear by now, but has been held up since the last point at which a valid estimate can be made. Seeing "due" is a bit more reassuring than an expected time in the past.

 

[adamello]

in SN world, I notice that their screens sometimes say arrived on the platform display - which should be obvious

 

[LewFinnis]

It always amuses me when waiting at Dover Priory when the screen goes to 'Arrived' when the train is around 100 yards away! There is also a scrolling message telling you where it is en route - I have seen this on the SE platforms at St Pancras as well, so I presume it's fairly general on SE.

 

[crosscity]

SWR have now begun showing "due" instead of "expected" on platform displays.

So do you know what happens if the train is late? Does the 'Due' time displayed reflect when it might arrive, or its scheduled time?

In WMR-land they've started showing the number of minutes to the next train, so there is no longer an indication of whether the train is right-time, late or early - a bad move in my view. It's useful to know whether you are running late, especially if you need to change trains, or have a bus to catch.

 

[Mag_seven]

To me "due" means the planned time, and "expected" means the forecast time given what is actually happening on the day with, for example, late running.

 

[Tuppenny Tube]

To me "due" means the planned time, and "expected" means the forecast time given what is actually happening on the day with, for example, late running.

That is certainly my understanding of the terms too, and hence the term 'overdue' for something that hasn't arrive by it's planned time.

 

[Signal Head]

To me "Due" means when it's scheduled, "Expected" means the best guess of when it will actually arrive/depart. I've seen screens that used "Due" when they meant "Expected" (by this definition) - typically there was a scheduled time and a "Due" time that was sometimes different.

Some displays at Manchester Piccadilly use "Due" (I think it actually says "Due in x minutes" ) where I would think "Expected" is more appropriate.

It's always struck me as an attempt to mask, or at least make it less obvious, that the train is late, is most people will see 'Due' and interpret it as 'planned' time.

I suspect a deliberate ploy on the part of 'duh Management'!

 

[3141]

Given that the dictionary definition of 'due' includes 'expected at', this doesn't seem like an issue to me

The display shows the time when the train was timetabled to arrive. That time has passed. The display says "due". We know that - see first sentence. When will it come? The display doesn't tell us. Formerly. it would have told us at what time the train was expected. You really don't see an issue?

"Due" means it's in the signal section and expected imminently, hence no "expected".

I think that 99.9999% of passengers won't know that, and so the word "due" is unhelpful to them. Moreover, they do not know how long the signal section is, or whether the train reached it at 25mph or 75mph.

Surely they are still displaying the "time the approx train will turn up in the platform" as they always were, no? It's just the word that has changed? Maybe to make better use of the limited space on the displays?

No, no and no are the answers to your three questions.

You see the word "Expected" printed on the frame of the display. Where a time used to be displayed immediately below it, the word "due" now appears.

 

[bb21]

I think that 99.9999% of passengers won't know that, and so the word "due" is unhelpful to them.

It is perfectly clear to me when I saw something like that for the first time, but if you think that can be an issue, it may be worthy of a suggestion to the TOC, as they may not be fully aware of that. They may be able to put a simple explanation out, or make suitable adjustments.

 

[DanTrain]

What’s the problem here? I was waiting for a predictably delayed SWR train earlier and the board ran through the minutes delay + expected time and then switched to due when the train was round the corner. Don’t really see why that’s confusing, buses work the same (except less reliably).

 

[ag51ruk]

View attachment 65265

The display shows the time when the train was timetabled to arrive. That time has passed. The display says "due". We know that - see first sentence. When will it come? The display doesn't tell us. Formerly. it would have told us at what time the train was expected. You really don't see an issue?

I don't see any issue with the picture you have posted - where does it say Due on it?

If you are saying that sometimes the Expected time shows the word Due instead of a time, then I would expect that to mean that it is now arriving.

I think some people on this forum have far too much time on their hands...

 

[mrmatt]

Whenever I've seen due (happens frequently at Farringdon) it appears to be when it is the "expected" minute but it has not yet arrived at the platform. Given the short signalling sections in the Thameslink core though it may well be in the signalling section as bb21 stated - although it does sometimes switch straight from "2 mins" to "arrived"

 

[3141]

I don't see any issue with the picture you have posted - where does it say Due on it?

If you are saying that sometimes the Expected time shows the word Due instead of a time, then I would expect that to mean that it is now arriving.

I think some people on this forum have far too much time on their hands...

The picture was to show that "Expected" is a heading on the frame of the display and not part of the digital message, as some earlier posts seemed to suppose. I didn't take a photo on the platform at 23.40-ish last Tuesday.

In the situation I've described and some others say they've seen as well, "due" appears at or shortly before the time the train should have arrived, but stays there for however much longer it takes till it actually does.

You think some people have too much time on their hands if they disagree with you...?

 

[edwin_m]

The picture was to show that "Expected" is a heading on the frame of the display and not part of the digital message, as some earlier posts seemed to suppose. I didn't take a photo on the platform at 23.40-ish last Tuesday.

In the situation I've described and some others say they've seen as well, "due" appears at or shortly before the time the train should have arrived, but stays there for however much longer it takes till it actually does.

You think some people have too much time on their hands if they disagree with you...?

I think you have caused some confusion by saying in your OP:

SWR have now begun showing "due" instead of "expected" on platform displays.

In fact (I think) what you are saying is that it still says "Expected" on the frame but it now says "Due" instead of a time underneath it.

What I'm not clear about is whether it still shows an expected time until that expected time arrives and the train doesn't, when it will show "Due" until the train arrives or it gets some other report. Or does it never show a time under "Expected", just "due"? Your photo suggests neither, because it is showing an expected time but that time is several minutes before the actual time.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

If, under the word ‘expected’, the display does in fact show the timetabled arrival time, then switches to ‘due’ once that time has passed, then it needs a re-think.
The correct way to notify passengers that there will be a delay, and not give any indication of the duration, is by putting the word ‘Brexit’ on the display

 

[Harbornite]

What an obscure topic for a thread, seems kinda pointless.

 

[Tuppenny Tube]

Well to me it would seem to be very relevant from a customer's perspective. As we have seen in this thread people have different understandings of what the word DUE infers so if, in the OP's pictured example, it said under Expected 'Due' I would assume that the train had arrived on time & the display had not been cleared off the system.
If it was a through train, instead of a terminator, a late arriving customer might think it had indeed departed on time & thereby miss it when it did finally arrive.

If I remember correctly LUL display 'Approaching' or 'Arriving' as a train approaches the platform which seems much more definitive than 'Due' however, with the equipment limitations on National Rail, would it not be better to use the term 'NOW' rather than 'DUE', i.e. Expected NOW ?

All said & done, to avoid any ambiguity, it still relies on displays being updated or cleared off the system in a timely fashion, how many times have you waited for a train expected at (say) 1422 & still been waiting there well beyond that time ?

 

[whhistle]

There seems to be confusion on when this "due" word would be displayed.

Due instead of expected: ...on departure screens when a train is late.

If you translate it into a full sentence - "I'm due to arrive at..." it gives a point of reference in time. What time you were scheduled to arrive doesn't matter anymore because you're already on the way.

I can't think of any situation where, if you're on the way, you would say "I'm scheduled to arrive in at..." - think of examples like travelling to meet friends in the car or on the bus....

I suspect "due" is easier to display on some screens rather than EXP or EXPT or any other abbreviation that doesn't make much sense to some passengers.


Due meaning "coming in now":
If they're changing it to "due" meaning the train is coming in now, that isn't great. The LUL standard of displaying "approaching" or "0 mins / 1 mins" is the simplist way.


I wonder if the OP could clear up the situation around seeing the word "due".

 

[whhistle]

View attachment 65265
The display shows the time when the train was timetabled to arrive. That time has passed.

That's simple a CIS error.

The operator should have removed it from the screen, it should have removed itself OR if the train hasn't arrived it should be marked as "delayed" automatically after 3 mins of non-movement from the last reporting point.

 

[johnnychips]

It’s just the ambiguity of the word ‘due’. Quite often my train is due (scheduled) to arrive at say 1700, but the info says ‘Expected 1706’. On the other hand, on bus stops, when I see due (imminent) I expect it to arrive in the next minute. But like someone else said, I don’t think it causes excessive confusion.

 

[Ethano92]

It is perfectly clear to me when I saw something like that for the first time, but if you think that can be an issue, it may be worthy of a suggestion to the TOC, as they may not be fully aware of that. They may be able to put a simple explanation out, or make suitable adjustments.

I don't agree it's clear, only because you see many people screenshotting the national rail app, for example, and tweeting to SWR complaining it says arrived at Waterloo before the train has stopped (since they may be hoping to make a delay repay claim)

These people (and there are many) don't know about our understand signal blocks and how/when the system registers the train as arrived.

Similar thing in that people don't understand how congestion can occur when there's only the expected amount of trains to run, a lot of these things aren't common knowledge even if they seem pretty straight forward.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure the Wimbledon-waterloo metro has always used this system with minute countdowns which I don't find very helpful, I too much prefer the direct 'expected 15:33' and looking at the clock seeing it's '15:31:20'

 

[Parallel]

I believe SWR’s new CIS wording originally said ‘Arrived’ when in the signal section, but due to complaints as a train could be several minutes from being at the platform so was changed to ‘Due’. I can’t remember where exactly I read this but it’s on the forum.

GWR just use ‘on time’ or ‘exp xx : xx’ (if it’s running late), though TfW use ‘Arrived’ on station CIS

 

[diffident]

I believe SWR’s new CIS wording originally said ‘Arrived’ when in the signal section, but due to complaints as a train could be several minutes from being at the platform so was changed to ‘Due’. I can’t remember where exactly I read this but it’s on the forum.

GWR just use ‘on time’ or ‘exp xx : xx’ (if it’s running late), though TfW use ‘Arrived’ on station CIS

In my opinion, that is exactly when the term "Due" should be used. If something is due, I'd expect it to arrive imminently. If something is due at xx:xx, I'd expect it at that time.