Expensive station car parks...

[charley_17/7]

I remember many years ago you used to get white CCST with 'Parking' written on (vice 'British Rail') which you then took to the ticket office, and they knocked it off the price of your travel ticket(s). That way the parking was 'free' but wasn't abused by non-railway ticket holders abusing the facility.

Personally like "free" plastic carrier bags used to be "normal", I believe there is no such thing as "free" parking, same with lack of plastic bottle deposit schemes, it only encourages wasteful behaviour.

 

[NoRoute]

Personally like "free" plastic carrier bags used to be "normal", I believe there is no such thing as "free" parking, same with lack of plastic bottle deposit schemes, it only encourages wasteful behaviour.

Beware unintended consequences, the free plastic bag ban was a interesting example, it was meant to reduce plastic waste but it increased it because people switched to thicker bags for life, so plastic consumption went up!

Plastic waste rises as 1.5bn 'bags for life' sold, research finds

Households bought 54 "reusable" bags on average last year, research says, prompting calls for a ban.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder whether free train station parking, linked to the purchase of and validation of a ticket might have some good unintended consequences, like encouraging lots more people to take the train. I suspect that the trouble with the railways is that they're largely run by railway people who like trains and track and rail services, so the investment goes into the railway system, when actually some of it should be skimmed off the top and invested into things like a multi-storey car park at every train station to get the customers through the door, oh an more seating and better waiting areas, kind of things a business would focus on, like when you visit an airport.

 

[MissPWay]

Beware unintended consequences, the free plastic bag ban was a interesting example, it was meant to reduce plastic waste but it increased it because people switched to thicker bags for life, so plastic consumption went up!

Plastic waste rises as 1.5bn 'bags for life' sold, research finds

Households bought 54 "reusable" bags on average last year, research says, prompting calls for a ban.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder whether free train station parking, linked to the purchase of and validation of a ticket might have some good unintended consequences, like encouraging lots more people to take the train. I suspect that the trouble with the railways is that they're largely run by railway people who like trains and track and rail services, so the investment goes into the railway system, when actually some of it should be skimmed off the top and invested into things like a multi-storey car park at every train station to get the customers through the door, oh an more seating and better waiting areas, kind of things a business would focus on, like when you visit an airport.

The railway is largely run by civil servants and former bus company managers.

There’s the odd “railway person,” but not like there once was.

 

[edwin_m]

Beware unintended consequences, the free plastic bag ban was a interesting example, it was meant to reduce plastic waste but it increased it because people switched to thicker bags for life, so plastic consumption went up!

Plastic waste rises as 1.5bn 'bags for life' sold, research finds

Households bought 54 "reusable" bags on average last year, research says, prompting calls for a ban.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder whether free train station parking, linked to the purchase of and validation of a ticket might have some good unintended consequences, like encouraging lots more people to take the train. I suspect that the trouble with the railways is that they're largely run by railway people who like trains and track and rail services, so the investment goes into the railway system, when actually some of it should be skimmed off the top and invested into things like a multi-storey car park at every train station to get the customers through the door, oh an more seating and better waiting areas, kind of things a business would focus on, like when you visit an airport.

There are plenty of multi-storey car parks at intercity stations, where the TOC can make money from the parking fees. If they've done their homework, the car park will be well filled, demonstrating that people are willing to pay the fee, and producing more custom for the trains.

There are also some large cheap or free car parks at suburban stations, but these are funded by the public sector on the grounds of giving people an alternative to driving into the city centre.

If you think station parking is expensive, have you tried parking at an airport recently?

 

[Watershed]

If you think station parking is expensive, have you tried parking at an airport recently?

Small difference there, airports are not given billions of taxpayer subsidy each year... Plus airports are always going to attract a lot of punters who want the minimum in inconvenience, so airport parking is often a distress purchase.

Station car parks should be priced to ensure they are kept full (as with trains). It is unsurprising to see station car parks that charge £10-15 per day completely deserted.

Car parking prices aren't regulated, so there is no reason these prices shouldn't have been cut during the pandemic.

 

[edwin_m]

Plus airports are always going to attract a lot of punters who want the minimum in inconvenience, so airport parking is often a distress purchase.

People will normally plan their flights well enough in advance that they can research and even pre-purchase parking. Station parking is much more likely to be a distress purchase for the simple reason that you can get a walk-up ticket for a train.

Station car parks should be priced to ensure they are kept full (as with trains). It is unsurprising to see station car parks that charge £10-15 per day completely deserted.

There's a strong argument for the opposite. Someone who misses their train through not getting a parking space is probably going to travel some other way in future.

Car parking prices aren't regulated, so there is no reason these prices shouldn't have been cut during the pandemic.

It's not regulated so the TOCs will charge what the market will bear. Cutting prices during the pandemic would encourage unnecessary travel.

 

[52290]

Leyland station is expensive (ie you've got to pay) but there's plenty of free parking in the streets nearby. Not that I use it. I'm usually full of Holt's, Lee's and Hydes when I come back from Manchester on a 319, maybe a 331 next time.

 

[Watershed]

Cutting prices during the pandemic would encourage unnecessary travel

Really? I hardly think people will go "the cost of the station car park has been cut, I know, I'll go on a jolly".

No, it is about making rail a more attractive option for any given journey. Though in any case the industry should not be telling passengers to get lost, and certainly not in the terms it has used over recent months.

It's not regulated so the TOCs will charge what the market will bear.

Arguably they are simply maximising revenue (though the £10-15 a day market is almost completely gone at the moment, so I doubt that is currently maximising revenue).

The railways are not there to maximise revenue, they are to relieve the roads and provide a sustainable transport option (amongst other things). And so whilst it's perhaps fine to charge £15 a day if the car park will still be full, doing so when demand has evaporated is just nuts.

There's a strong argument for the opposite. Someone who misses their train through not getting a parking space is probably going to travel some other way in future.

Pre-Covid plenty of station car parks were full to the rafters every day. Didn't seem to put the punters off.

No, this is about maximising occupancy, using whatever price will fill car parks.

 

[MissPWay]

Small difference there, airports are not given billions of taxpayer subsidy each year...

*Citation needed*

 

[route101]

Who's driving to the Central London Railway stations and parking?

 

[NoRoute]

*Citation needed*

What, that the railways receive billions in subsidy each year?

How much does the government subsidise the railways by? - Full Fact

The average rail ticket is 20% more expensive than it was in 1995, and government subsidies for the railways have also increased.

fullfact.org

 

[jopsuk]

If a car park is regularly 90% occupied (apparently the optimum- because above that drivers have to spend a long time finding the empty spaces) or more it is hard to argue that it is too expensive. Rather, the price should be increased to just below the level where this would no longer be the case, maximising income. Surely?

 

[jfollows]

I wonder whether free train station parking, linked to the purchase of and validation of a ticket might have some good unintended consequences, like encouraging lots more people to take the train. I suspect that the trouble with the railways is that they're largely run by railway people who like trains and track and rail services, so the investment goes into the railway system, when actually some of it should be skimmed off the top and invested into things like a multi-storey car park at every train station to get the customers through the door, oh an more seating and better waiting areas, kind of things a business would focus on, like when you visit an airport.

I recall the launch of Network South East in, err, June 1986 (I had to look it up, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_SouthEast) introduced free weekend parking at stations, and it was a really good initiative I thought ... at the time I lived in Clanfield and had to drive to Petersfield and most of my train travel was at weekends (I worked in Portmouth at the bottom of the M275 during the week). So I made use of it ... perhaps I wasn't the ideal target audience because I'd have used the train anyway, but I'm sure it was a good initiative.

 

[NoRoute]

If a car park is regularly 90% occupied (apparently the optimum- because above that drivers have to spend a long time finding the empty spaces) or more it is hard to argue that it is too expensive. Rather, the price should be increased to just below the level where this would no longer be the case, maximising income. Surely?

Is the goal to maximise revenue from the car park, or maximise the use of the railway? Surely if the car park is utilised to capacity that calls for investment in more parking spaces, because if it's full then its turning away potential customers and likely limiting passengers if convenient alternative car parks are not readily available

 

[jopsuk]

Is the goal to maximise revenue from the car park, or maximise the use of the railway? Surely if the car park is utilised to capacity that calls for investment in more parking spaces, because if it's full then its turning away potential customers and likely limiting passengers if convenient alternative car parks are not readily available

however, that needs to be balanced against other priorities- in many cases, is it a good idea to be encouraging people to drive into the town/city by providing extensive car parking?

 

[NoRoute]

however, that needs to be balanced against other priorities- in many cases, is it a good idea to be encouraging people to drive into the town/city by providing extensive car parking?

Better a short drive into town to catch the train, than making the whole of a longer distance trip by car, surely?

 

[Ianno87]

Cambridge is £12.50 / day (weekdays and weekends). No shortage of people paying it, mind.

The railway is largely run by civil servants and former bus company managers.

There’s the odd “railway person,” but not like there once was.

Modern Railways's annual review of industry senior leaders show that this is really not the case.

 

[Uk125]

That's why I love Merseyrail run stations . Their car parks are free

 

[185143]

That's why I love Merseyrail run stations . Their car parks are free

But no overnight parking IIRC.

Every cloud...

 

[MissPWay]

What, that the railways receive billions in subsidy each year?

How much does the government subsidise the railways by? - Full Fact

The average rail ticket is 20% more expensive than it was in 1995, and government subsidies for the railways have also increased.

fullfact.org

No, that aviation doesn’t, directly it indirectly,

 

[Llandudno]

That's why I love Merseyrail run stations . Their car parks are free

I think there is a small fee at Hooton, 80p?

 

[edwin_m]

Really? I hardly think people will go "the cost of the station car park has been cut, I know, I'll go on a jolly".

No, it is about making rail a more attractive option for any given journey. Though in any case the industry should not be telling passengers to get lost, and certainly not in the terms it has used over recent months.

The rightness or otherwise of discouraging demand in the pandemic is discussed extensively elsewhere, so let's take it as read here that demand is being discouraged.

On that basis, if cutting the parking cost doesn't increase rail demand, why do it? And if it does, then it's the wrong thing to do.

Arguably they are simply maximising revenue (though the £10-15 a day market is almost completely gone at the moment, so I doubt that is currently maximising revenue).

The railways are not there to maximise revenue, they are to relieve the roads and provide a sustainable transport option (amongst other things). And so whilst it's perhaps fine to charge £15 a day if the car park will still be full, doing so when demand has evaporated is just nuts.

Pre-Covid plenty of station car parks were full to the rafters every day. Didn't seem to put the punters off.

No, this is about maximising occupancy, using whatever price will fill car parks.

You claim this is about maximising revenue and also about maximising occupancy, but the two may not be the same thing. If the operator charges a higher price they may have fewer spaces taken but earn more money. Currently operators maximise revenue by increasing prices to what they think the market will bear - not sure if they also factor in the effect on train ticket revenue too. A policy of maximising occupancy risks alienating customers if they can't find a space, as I've already pointed out. Arguably, from a customer service point of view as well as pure commercials, they should put the price up if the car park is regularly full.

But there is also a policy benefit in discouraging people from using car parks at intercity stations, which are normally near town and city centres so driving there has more impact than at suburban stations. If the driver parks there to avoid making a long distance car journey then there's probably a net benefit, though less than if they'd got to the station by some other means. But there is none if they park to make a short train journey or even not to use the train at all. Setting a high price for intercity parking acts as a rather crude form of incentive/penalty to influence behaviour.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The new multi-story car park at Canterbury West is £1.90 per hour every day of the week, including Sundays.

When I visit relatives on a Sunday, I park in Canterbury East car park for a princely £1 - for the entire day...

 

[Kite159]

I seem to recall Guildford/Woking was expensive when I looked at a poster last year when waiting for a replacement bus

 

[Watershed]

But there is also a policy benefit in discouraging people from using car parks at intercity stations, which are normally near town and city centres so driving there has more impact than at suburban stations. If the driver parks there to avoid making a long distance car journey then there's probably a net benefit, though less than if they'd got to the station by some other means. But there is none if they park to make a short train journey or even not to use the train at all. Setting a high price for intercity parking acts as a rather crude form of incentive/penalty to influence behaviour.

It would be perfectly easy enough to solve that by discounting ticket sales by the amount of any parking paid.

So if the parking is £15 a day you won't get all your money back unless you are making a reasonable length of journey.

The rightness or otherwise of discouraging demand in the pandemic is discussed extensively elsewhere, so let's take it as read here that demand is being discouraged.

On that basis, if cutting the parking cost doesn't increase rail demand, why do it? And if it does, then it's the wrong thing to do.

It doesn't have to be about incentivising people to travel more. By far the bigger market lies in attracting people to make their existing journeys by train rather than by car.

 

[ServerHoster]

I think there is a small fee at Hooton, 80p?

The car park at Hooton is run by the council.

 

[Pokelet]

I have actually parked at Victoria before. Not admittedly to get a train but I had a meeting with a colleague close by and actually, if was rather reasonable for a carpark in central London. Just checked now, £9per hour up to £30 per day.

It was years ago that I last used it but it seemed very reasonable compared to the £5 I had to feed into a meter in Kensington for half hour parking. By the time I'd walked the 20yds back from the meter I already had a ticket

 

[edwin_m]

It would be perfectly easy enough to solve that by discounting ticket sales by the amount of any parking paid.

So if the parking is £15 a day you won't get all your money back unless you are making a reasonable length of journey.

This would destroy the incentive for people to access a town/city centre station by sustainable means. For example if I took the bus to the station I'd have to pay the bus fare on top of the train fare, but if I drove and had my parking refunded I'd only pay the train fare plus the marginal costs of driving a few miles, saving about £3.50 in my own case.

Looking at it another way, people who are making more sustainable choices to get to the station would be subsiding those who didn't.

There might be scope for a partial refund, especially if parking nearby is expensive enough that non-rail users will might park at the station. But it would probably be by someone booking parking online when buying their ticket rather than getting a refund at the booking office.

It doesn't have to be about incentivising people to travel more. By far the bigger market lies in attracting people to make their existing journeys by train rather than by car.

I'm not taking about incentivising people to travel more or indeed less. I'm talking about incentivising train users to access the station by more sustainable means.

 

[ExRes]

Who's driving to the Central London Railway stations and parking?

I'm not sure what things are like now as I don't travel to London anymore, but when I did there was a gap in the early hours of the morning when there was no service from my local station to work, how would I have got to/home from work without a car? there was no bus/coach service available and I wasn't about to cycle 25 miles before a days driving trains, anyone finding themselves in the same situation would have no option but to drive and park, the others using the car parks were those who were having their charges paid on expenses of course .......

 

[unlevel42]

I completely agree. The "last mile" problem in passenger transportation, as it is often termed, can really make or break the viability for the end user of rail transport. If I think for instance of a train journey from Bristol Parkway to London that I do often. The train journey itself is quite fast (~1 Hr 15 Min) which is faster than driving; however to get to the station would involve leaving about an hour to take a bus which completely defeats the purpose, so I might as well drive the whole way. Alternatively, if parking were a bit more reasonably priced I might be tempted to drive 10 Min to the station.

I could take the car to Sheffield station in 20m and pay £19 50 at the QPark door to platform.

I could walk in 40m-its downhill there so bus/taxi back
A bus would cost £2 00/2 10 and take 25m.
A taxi would be £9 00 and take 15m.
Walk + tram 30m
Folding bike in 15m and bus/taxi back.
Other options are available from other parts of the city.

There are lots of choices.
Perhaps due to the choices and cost, thankfully most people don't take their cars and slow everybody else down.
The area is also the most polluted in the city.
You should expect to pay a premium for the modes of transport that harm and slow others.
PS The Science Park/Hub car parks are mostly permanently closed.