Experience of Female Volunteers at Heritage Railways

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mjc

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By "laddish" the original poster meant spaces where it'd be acceptable to tell sexist/bad taste jokes and acting in a sexist way towards women - See post #78

The idea that we need to preserve spaces where men can be sexist is somewhat absurd? Especially given the number of people sharing experiences of sexism and homophobia on the railway.

Toxic behaviour on heritage railways needs to be called out and eradicated, not justified as "laddish" or just banter.
I took the laddish behaviour to refer to the leg-pulling and banter in this case, not the sexist jokes.

I absolutely agree that mixed-sex spaces should be the norm but there is surely a place for allowing single-sex interaction too. Where there is a real or perceived difference in how people feel when in mixed company it matters to some people, which is why Andy’s Man Club, the WI etc exist. The banter may be based on height, hair colour, attitudes or what football team you support but it is part of how (some) boys and men interact.
my wife, our neighbour and her (adult) daughters have an occasional ‘girls night’ their name for it; no idea what they get up to or talk about but is men accept it and stay out of the way. Should we not accept it, or feel unable to have our own equivalent?

Sorry, are you suggesting it is sexist to not allow men to be sexist?
As posted above, but bears repeating as this message came after I’d written mine, although posted in reverse order for some reason… Why does ‘laddish’ = sexist?
 

D6130

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I have to say that I've witnessed some pretty embarrassing sexist behaviour in public by groups of drunken women on 'hen parties' - both on trains and in pubs and bars.
 

YorkshireBear

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I took the laddish behaviour to refer to the leg-pulling and banter in this case, not the sexist jokes.


As posted above, but bears repeating as this message came after I’d written mine, although posted in reverse order for some reason… Why does ‘laddish’ = sexist?
The message before was referring to laddish behaviour including sexism which may have crossed paths slightly.

Laddish behaviour where it doesn't involve being intimidating, sexist, racist, homophobic is very positive.
 

pdq

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If 'lads' wish to speak or act in a way that they consider would not be suitable for a female audience, then I would suggest it is not suitable full stop.
 

reddragon

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If 'lads' wish to speak or act in a way that they consider would not be suitable for a female audience, then I would suggest it is not suitable full stop.
Women meet up to talk about women's issues & interests because they don't want to talk about them in front of men.

Why cannot men do the same?
 

YorkshireBear

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Women meet up to talk about women's issues & interests because they don't want to talk about them in front of men.

Why cannot men do the same?
These are not the same things stop conflating them. Men can get together to talk about men's issues and interests. That's completely right no one is suggesting they shouldn't.

But is men or women getting together to be make sexist or other discriminatory remarks appropriate? If you think so then that is somewhere where we will fundamentally.

Some groups of men being very inappropriate in a group is being turned here into men should not be allowed to hang out together that is not what anyone is suggesting. Some women are horrendous in groups too and I also don't think they should behave like that and at no point is anyone saying that is acceptable behaviour but the male equivalent isn't.
 

reddragon

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But is men or women getting together to be make sexist or other discriminatory remarks appropriate? If you think so then that is somewhere where we will fundamentally.

Some groups of men being very inappropriate in a group is being turned here into men should not be allowed to hang out together that is not what anyone is suggesting. Some women are horrendous in groups too and I also don't think they should behave like that and at no point is anyone saying that is acceptable behaviour but the male equivalent isn't.
I think that all people must behave in a decent and respectable way towards each other.

I am just fed up with a growing view that it's only 1 way.
 

YorkshireBear

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I think that all people must behave in a decent and respectable way towards each other.

I am just fed up with a growing view that it's only 1 way.
Completely but that doesn't excuse it amongst anyone. I agree more attention needs to be paid to all bad behaviour.
 

WesternLancer

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These are not the same things stop conflating them. Men can get together to talk about men's issues and interests. That's completely right no one is suggesting they shouldn't.

But is men or women getting together to be make sexist or other discriminatory remarks appropriate? If you think so then that is somewhere where we will fundamentally.

Some groups of men being very inappropriate in a group is being turned here into men should not be allowed to hang out together that is not what anyone is suggesting. Some women are horrendous in groups too and I also don't think they should behave like that and at no point is anyone saying that is acceptable behaviour but the male equivalent isn't.
Yes, this is a critical difference.
For example - (an extreme one) the case of the male police officer who murdered a woman recently was found to have been part of what IIRC was a male only facebook group where such derogatory behaviour was (presumably) tolerated. Some would say this is the logical extension of 'laddish spaces'.
 

reddragon

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Yes, this is a critical difference.
For example - (an extreme one) the case of the male police officer who murdered a woman recently was found to have been part of what IIRC was a male only facebook group where such derogatory behaviour was (presumably) tolerated. Some would say this is the logical extension of 'laddish spaces'.
There have been a number of Police WhatsApp / Facebook groups lately that have been disgraceful. They should all be fired for such behaviours!

There was also a facebook group for bagging football players that brought down an Oldham footballers career before being thrown out on appeal and 1500 men who had rape cases against them ruled void after files on the victims phones not released to the accused legal team at the trial exonerated many of them.
 
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It's really depressing to see how this thread has shifted from the experiences of women being harassed and victimised on heritage railways, to instead focus on men moaning about perceived injustices and complaining about not being allowed to make sexist jokes anymore.
 

reddragon

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It's really depressing to see how this thread has shifted from the experiences of women being harassed and victimised on heritage railways, to instead focus on men moaning about perceived injustices and complaining about not being allowed to make sexist jokes anymore.
No it has developed into a focus on how ALL people can be victimised and harassed.

Nobody, men or women should suffer this for any reason.
 

RT4038

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These are not the same things stop conflating them. Men can get together to talk about men's issues and interests. That's completely right no one is suggesting they shouldn't.

But is men or women getting together to be make sexist or other discriminatory remarks appropriate? If you think so then that is somewhere where we will fundamentally.

Some groups of men being very inappropriate in a group is being turned here into men should not be allowed to hang out together that is not what anyone is suggesting. Some women are horrendous in groups too and I also don't think they should behave like that and at no point is anyone saying that is acceptable behaviour but the male equivalent isn't.
So if men can get together, I guess that a (substantial?) proportion of talk about men's issues and interests will involve women in some way or another, and not all of it positive (and I daresay vice-versa). For fear of this discussion being branded sexist and therefore at risk of the group being broken up, is this a no-go area?

However, I would agree that it would be plain rude (and therefore not acceptable behaviour) to be discussing/commenting on this subject in front of women, or discriminating against them in a workplace, voluntary or not (or vice-versa). But sooner or later there will be a woman who wants in on the mens' group.......

All smacks a bit of thought-control.
 

YorkshireBear

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Yes, this is a critical difference.
For example - (an extreme one) the case of the male police officer who murdered a woman recently was found to have been part of what IIRC was a male only facebook group where such derogatory behaviour was (presumably) tolerated. Some would say this is the logical extension of 'laddish spaces'.
That is very extreme!
So if men can get together, I guess that a (substantial?) proportion of talk about men's issues and interests will involve women in some way or another, and not all of it positive (and I daresay vice-versa). For fear of this discussion being branded sexist and therefore at risk of the group being broken up, is this a no-go area?

However, I would agree that it would be plain rude (and therefore not acceptable behaviour) to be discussing/commenting on this subject in front of women, or discriminating against them in a workplace, voluntary or not (or vice-versa). But sooner or later there will be a woman who wants in on the mens' group.......

All smacks a bit of thought-control.
No that isn't really what I meant at all. But I fear this discussion is going to keep going with small nuances in what each person says being picked apart, I fear I have done the same.

I think its best this thread is not derailed any further.
 

Clayton

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It’s fine to have Male spaces, places where guys can be laddish and silly, and also have spaces where women can chat and have fun without men. But the discussion is about a workplace! It’s not appropriate to allow behaviour or talk that makes any particular group uncomfortable in a workplace.
 

reddragon

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It’s fine to have Male spaces, places where guys can be laddish and silly, and also have spaces where women can chat and have fun without men. But the discussion is about a workplace! It’s not appropriate to allow behaviour or talk that makes any particular group uncomfortable in a workplace.
I think that maybe the problem at a Heritage Railway. It is a workplace and a members club and a leisure pastime location with blurred lines.

I could be working a shift signed on, there to chat with mates or their to have a ride on a train, or all 3!

Loco sections will be the worst at this with locos having an owners group too, hired to the railway operated by owning / railway drivers.

This in no way excuses that appalling behaviour but maybe helps create an understanding why it may be happening?
 

RT4038

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It’s fine to have Male spaces, places where guys can be laddish and silly, and also have spaces where women can chat and have fun without men. But the discussion is about a workplace! It’s not appropriate to allow behaviour or talk that makes any particular group uncomfortable in a workplace.
I note that guys can be laddish and silly, but women can chat and have fun. Subtle difference in language which already shows a certain angle? The men's group who have got together, as a male space where guys can be laddish and silly [or chat and have fun], to (voluntarily) build D5720 from scratch and then maintain it as their pride and joy.......

I think that maybe the problem at a Heritage Railway. It is a workplace and a members club and a leisure pastime location with blurred lines.

I could be working a shift signed on, there to chat with mates or their to have a ride on a train, or all 3!

Loco sections will be the worst at this with locos having an owners group too, hired to the railway operated by owning / railway drivers.

This in no way excuses that appalling behaviour but maybe helps create an understanding why it may be happening?
Quite. It doesn't excuse rude behaviour however, but perhaps gives an understanding of an unwelcoming stance.
 

Egg Centric

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I could not disagree more, unless you were trying to be satirical. If you weren't then you should be ashamed

No, shame on you for trying to censor my entire life for enjoying different things to you.

It’s fine to have Male spaces, places where guys can be laddish and silly, and also have spaces where women can chat and have fun without men. But the discussion is about a workplace! It’s not appropriate to allow behaviour or talk that makes any particular group uncomfortable in a workplace.

Absolutely agree and I am sorry for providing the spark for dragging this off topic. It is a shame these things get so polarized - mind you it is an internet-only thing (at least in Britain - I'm worried about the States where both left and right but especially right are bloody nuts) in my experience. The real world generally seems to operate entirely differently and people are more congenial (apart apparently from some heritage railways, and yeah the 'men' who acted in a way that ironically can only be called bitchy to Joanne should be ashamed of themselves).

I have a wooly theory why the internet can be so combative but can't prove it (basically, some kind of combination of 'the people who care most' being the loudest and exhibiting autistic-like traits).
 

Cowley

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I think that we’re probably done with this debate for now as it’s ended up drifting off topic and there’s probably not that much more to say.
Thanks everyone.
 
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